A tough nut for Arminians to crack.

[Carbon]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

 

[Carbon]

I figured this will be a tough question for Arminians.
Mainly because there is no example in scripture.

Even when Jesus called his disciples, he went to them. He also never asked them, he simply called them.
Maybe someone can point out a verse I may have missed? For example, Matthew?

Matthew 9:9,
As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.

Did Jesus ask Matthew? Did Jesus try and use a little prevenient grace? Did he send his other disciples to talk him into following him?

Or, how about Philip and Nathaniel?

John 1:43-51
The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

This passage is filled with tons of treasure, do you Arminians see any? Hint: It is very Calvinistic!

 

[David1701]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

I don't think that real Arminians would say that salvation was initiated by man (are there any Arminians on this forum?).

 

[Carbon]

I don't think that real Arminians would say that salvation was initiated by man (are there any Arminians on this forum?).

I don't think there are any Arminians on here as of yet.
I believe you may be right if there were a biblical doctrine of prevenient grace (Arminian Style) which I don't believe there is.

 

[David1701]

I don't think there are any Arminians on here as of yet.
I believe you may be right if there were a biblical doctrine of prevenient grace (Arminian Style) which I don't believe there is.

The thing is that, although there is no biblical Arminian prevenient grace, they think that there is, which means that they would not claim that man initiates salvation; in fact, they would also say that, because the Cross, and the preaching of it, come before anyone turning to Christ, this is another example of God being the initiator of salvation.

I'm not trying to be awkward, it's just that this particular question is not one that they would find hard to answer.

 

[Deleted member 6]

The thing is that, although there is no biblical Arminian prevenient grace, they think that there is, which means that they would not claim that man initiates salvation; in fact, they would also say that, because the Cross, and the preaching of it, come before anyone turning to Christ, this is another example of God being the initiator of salvation.

I'm not trying to be awkward, it's just that this particular question is not one that they would find hard to answer.

Yes, they teach a form of TD, but once they’ve been given some level of spiritual life, it is here that their will has been freed to either accept or reject Him. Problem with this is 1) it’s not found anywhere in the Bible, 2) man doesn’t need freed to reject Him, as that ability was already there from the fall of Adam. So give freedom to reject is not correct.

 

[CCShorts]

I figured this will be a tough question for Arminians.
Mainly because there is no example in scripture.

Even when Jesus called his disciples, he went to them. He also never asked them, he simply called them.
Maybe someone can point out a verse I may have missed? For example, Matthew?

Matthew 9:9,
As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth, and he said to him, “Follow me.” And he rose and followed him.

Did Jesus ask Matthew? Did Jesus try and use a little prevenient grace? Did he send his other disciples to talk him into following him?

Or, how about Philip and Nathaniel?

John 1:43-51
The next day Jesus decided to go to Galilee. He found Philip and said to him, “Follow me.” Now Philip was from Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip found Nathanael and said to him, “We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.” Nathanael said to him, “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him, “Come and see.” Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said of him, “Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “How do you know me?” Jesus answered him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!” Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

This passage is filled with tons of treasure, do you Arminians see any? Hint: It is very Calvinistic!

I agree as the disciples' immediate response to Jesus' call, without any hesitation or negotiation, is significant evidence of their spiritual transformation and the work of God in their lives. It shows a profound understanding and acceptance of the things of the Spirit. Jesus was not foolishness to them.

In Matthew 9:9, we see Jesus approaching Matthew, who was sitting at the tax booth, and simply saying, "Follow me." Without any recorded hesitation, Matthew immediately rose and followed Him. Similarly, in John 1:43-51, Jesus finds Philip and says, "Follow me." Philip then goes to Nathanael and declares that they have found the one whom Moses and the prophets wrote about. Nathanael, initially skeptical, is convinced by Jesus' knowledge of him and declares Him to be the Son of God and the King of Israel.

These instances clearly demonstrate that Jesus didn't engage in prolonged persuasion or use Arminian prevenient grace to convince the disciples to follow Him. His call was direct and authoritative, and the disciples responded with unwavering obedience. This immediate and wholehearted response reflects a divine revelation and transformation taking place within them.

John 10:27 supports the understanding that the disciples' acceptance and understanding of Jesus is a result of divine revelation and spiritual transformation.

In John 10:27, Jesus says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." This statement highlights the intimate relationship between Jesus and His followers. The disciples, as His sheep, not only hear His voice but also recognize and respond to it. This indicates a deep spiritual connection and understanding between Jesus and His disciples.

Just as sheep recognize and respond to the voice of their shepherd, the disciples recognized the voice of Jesus and followed Him without hesitation. This response goes beyond mere human reasoning or persuasion; it stems from a spiritual awakening and the transformative work of God in their lives.

Matthew 16:13-17, further supports this understanding. When Jesus asks His disciples who people say He is, they offer various opinions. But when He asks them directly, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter responds, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus affirms that this revelation did not come from flesh and blood but from the Father in heaven. It underscores the fact that understanding and acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah require a revelation from God Himself.

…

 

[David1701]

Yes, they teach a form of TD, but once they’ve been given some level of spiritual life, it is here that their will has been freed to either accept or reject Him. Problem with this is 1) it’s not found anywhere in the Bible, 2) man doesn’t need freed to reject Him, as that ability was already there from the fall of Adam. So give freedom to reject is not correct.

They teach that, as man is naturally, he rejects God and the gospel (agreeing with your second point). They reject the biblical teaching that being born of God precedes faith in Christ, which is why they invented "prevenient grace".

 

[Carbon]

The thing is that, although there is no biblical Arminian prevenient grace, they think that there is, which means that they would not claim that man initiates salvation; in fact, they would also say that, because the Cross, and the preaching of it, come before anyone turning to Christ, this is another example of God being the initiator of salvation.

I'm not trying to be awkward, it's just that this particular question is not one that they would find hard to answer.

I think you are right. Since you put it that way.

 

[ReverendRV]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

I can't...

The Bible teaches that we're Saved by Grace, which is the Umerited Favor of God. Therefore, any aspect of Salvation that rightly gives us Merit; cannot be of Grace. Things like Spiritual Rewards are Merited Favor, therefore they have more in common with Wages than they do with Grace. Faith is not a Work, but Humanly speaking; it Merits Justification. Therefore even Faith is Merited Favor. This means that Arminians and Provisionists are wrong to say that Faith Merits Election. Nothing Merits Election, right? Election could not be a Doctrine of Grace, if it is the result of merited favor...

 

[ReverendRV]

I don't think that real Arminians would say that salvation was initiated by man (are there any Arminians on this forum?).

I would welcome any true Arminian being here; someone who doesn't want the fight, someone that Calvinists don't want to fight with. If a Provisionist could behave, I'd even welcome that...

Anyone who could behave, and not sweep Reason under the carpet; would be fine with me...

 

[atpollard]

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Ohhh, I LOVE a challenge (and I am a better Arminian than most Arminians ... which is sad for them since I am a 1689 card carrying Particular Baptist).

Luke 7:36-50 [NLT]

One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to have dinner with him, so Jesus went to his home and sat down to eat. When a certain immoral woman from that city heard he was eating there, she brought a beautiful alabaster jar filled with expensive perfume. Then she knelt behind him at his feet, weeping. Her tears fell on his feet, and she wiped them off with her hair. Then she kept kissing his feet and putting perfume on them.​

​

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know what kind of woman is touching him. She's a sinner!"​

​

Then Jesus answered his thoughts. "Simon," he said to the Pharisee, "I have something to say to you." "Go ahead, Teacher," Simon replied.​

​

Then Jesus told him this story: "A man loaned money to two people--500 pieces of silver to one and 50 pieces to the other. But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?"​

​

Simon answered, "I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt." "That's right," Jesus said. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn't offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You didn't greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.​

​

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love." Then Jesus said to the woman, "Your sins are forgiven."​

​

The men at the table said among themselves, "Who is this man, that he goes around forgiving sins?"​

​

And Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."​

​

I'm sorry ... I missed that. According to the lips of GOD ... WHAT SAVED HER?​

 

[atpollard]

Do Arminians teach man initiates salvation? I'm not certain whether I've seen any do this.

Prevenient Grace.
From the Methodist Church Statement of Faith:

1. The gift of grace is available to all persons. Our Father in Heaven is not willing that any should be lost (Matthew 18:14), but that all may come to “the knowledge of truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). With St. Paul, we affirm the proclamation found in Romans 10:9, “That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
2. Grace is the manifestation of God’s love toward fallen creation, to be freely received and freely given. This undeserved gift works to liberate humanity from both the guilt and power of sin, and live as children of God, freed for joyful obedience. In the classic Wesleyan expression, grace works in numerous ways throughout our lives, beginning with the general providence of God toward all.
3. God’s prevenient or preventing grace refers to “the first dawning of grace in the soul,” mitigating the effects of original sin, even before we are aware of our need for God. It prevents the full consequences of humanity’s alienation from God and awakens conscience, giving an initial sense of God and the first inclinations toward life. Received prior to our ability to respond, preventing grace enables genuine response to the continuing work of God’s grace.
4. God’s convincing grace leads us to what the Bible terms “repentance,” awakening in us a desire to “flee the wrath to come” and enabling us to begin to “fear God and work righteousness.”
5. God’s justifying grace works by faith to bring reconciliation to God through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, what God does for us. It is pardon for sin and ordinarily results in assurance, “God’s Spirit witnessing with our spirit that we are children of God.”
6. God’s sanctifying grace begins with God’s work of regeneration, sometimes referred to as “being born again.” It is God’s work in us as we continually turn to Him and seek to be perfected in His love. Sanctification is the process by which the Holy Spirit works to replace sin with the fruit of the Spirit. With John Wesley, we believe that a life of holiness and ultimately “entire sanctification” should be the goal of each individual’s journey with God.
7. Our ultimate hope and promise in Christ is glorification, where our souls and bodies are perfectly restored through this grace.

 

[atpollard]

Church of God Declaration of Faith:

WE BELIEVE:​

The Church of God believes the whole Bible to be completely and equally inspired and that it is the written Word of God. The Church of God has adopted the following Declaration of Faith as its standard and official expression of its doctrine.

• In the verbal inspiration of the Bible
• In one God eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
• That Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the Virgin Mary. That Jesus was crucified, buried, and raised from the dead. That He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
• That all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
• That justification, regeneration, and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
• In sanctification subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Christ; through the Word, and by the Holy Ghost.
• Holiness to be God’s standard of living for His people.
• In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
• In speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and that it is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
• In water baptism by immersion, and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
• Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
• In the Lord’s Supper and washing of the saints’ feet.
• In the premillennial second coming of Jesus. First, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air. Second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
• In the bodily resurrection; eternal life for the righteous, and eternal punishment for the wicked.

 

[atpollard]

New Beginnings Life Center (Pentecostal) "What we Believe"​

ABOUT SALVATION​

Salvation is God's free gift to man, but we must accept His gift. We can never make up for our sin with self-improvement or by good works, only trusting in Jesus Christ, as God's offer of forgiveness, can anyone be saved from sin's penalty. Salvation is maintained by the grace and power of God.
[Romans 6:23 & Ephesians 2:8-9]

 

[Carbon]

Ohhh, I LOVE a challenge

Yea me too.

(and I am a better Arminian than most Arminians ... which is sad for them since I am a 1689 card carrying Particular Baptist).]

Poor Arminians

And Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."​

​

I'm sorry ... I missed that. According to the lips of GOD ... WHAT SAVED HER?​

I didn't miss it, He said to her: Your faith has saved you. Let me answer with Boice and Sproul. As they can say it much better than I can.

James Boice.
If we are following the TULIP acronym, this is the doctrine called “irresistible grace,” which refers to the way God calls us to Jesus Christ. But again the words themselves are somewhat misleading, for they do not mean (as they seem to imply) that God will drag us kicking and screaming into his kingdom. Nor do they mean that grace is never resisted by us. Obviously it is. What they mean is that we do not resist effectively. Or, to put it the other way around, they mean that when God calls us to faith in Jesus Christ he calls effectively, succeeding in his purpose to save us. The grace of God’s calling is overwhelmingly efficacious. A good way of expressing this is to say that the Holy Spirit regenerates us, giving us a new nature, as a result of which we naturally do what the new nature does: that is, we believe the gospel, repent of our sin, and trust in Christ unto salvation

I especially like the way Boice explains it in this last sentence above.



R C Sproul,
offers an excellent account of the Reformed doctrine, with such wonderful explanations of salvation as “[Fallen man’s] problem, which we defined as moral inability, is that he lacks a desire for Christ. He is indisposed and disinclined toward Christ. Unless or until man is inclined to Christ, he will never receive Christ. Unless he first desires Christ, he will never receive Christ. In regeneration, God changes our hearts. He gives us a new disposition, a new inclination… If God gives us a desire for Christ we will act according to that desire.”

Sproul refutes misconceptions of Reformed theology, such as his statement that: “Calvinism does not teach and never has taught that God brings people kicking and screaming into the kingdom or has ever excluded anyone who wanted to be there… Natural man does not want Christ. He will only want Christ if God plants a desire for Christ in his heart. Once that desire is planted, those who come to Christ do not come kicking and screaming against their wills. They come because they want to come. They now desire Christ.”

Yep.

 

[David1701]

Ohhh, I LOVE a challenge (and I am a better Arminian than most Arminians ... which is sad for them since I am a 1689 card carrying Particular Baptist).

Luke 7:36-50 [NLT]

One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to have dinner with him, so Jesus went to his home and sat down to eat. When a certain immoral woman from that city heard he was eating there, she brought a beautiful alabaster jar filled with expensive perfume. Then she knelt behind him at his feet, weeping. Her tears fell on his feet, and she wiped them off with her hair. Then she kept kissing his feet and putting perfume on them.​

​

When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know what kind of woman is touching him. She's a sinner!"​

​

Then Jesus answered his thoughts. "Simon," he said to the Pharisee, "I have something to say to you." "Go ahead, Teacher," Simon replied.​

​

Then Jesus told him this story: "A man loaned money to two people--500 pieces of silver to one and 50 pieces to the other. But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?"​

​

Simon answered, "I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt." "That's right," Jesus said. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn't offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You didn't greet me with a kiss, but from the time I first came in, she has not stopped kissing my feet. You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume.​

​

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love." Then Jesus said to the woman, "Your sins are forgiven."​

​

The men at the table said among themselves, "Who is this man, that he goes around forgiving sins?"​

​

And Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."​

​

I'm sorry ... I missed that. According to the lips of GOD ... WHAT SAVED HER?​

Faith is part of the chain of causation in salvation. To say, "Your faith has saved you...", is to use a figure of speech known as a synecdoche (a part representing the whole, or the whole representing a part).

It's a bit like seeing someone drowning, throwing a lifebelt onto him (managing to hurl it under his flailing arms), then pulling him out. When he is out and somewhat revived, you tell him, "The lifebelt saved you.". Is this true? Yes, but only as a synecdoche.

 

[atpollard]

Faith is part of the chain of causation in salvation. To say, "Your faith has saved you...", is to use a figure of speech known as a synecdoche (a part representing the whole, or the whole representing a part).

It's a bit like seeing someone drowning, throwing a lifebelt onto him (managing to hurl it under his flailing arms), then pulling him out. When he is out and somewhat revived, you tell him, "The lifebelt saved you.". Is this true? Yes, but only as a synecdoche.

Until an Arminian comes along, I guess I’ll have to be the designated “that guy”.

Nobody is arguing for a Pelagian salvation (even a fake-Arminian like me). The request in the OP was for someone that INITIATED their own salvation. IE. Somebody that “made the first move”. Now let’s go back to that story in Luke 7.

• Event #1: Woman anoints Jesus’ feet with tears and perfume, kisses them, and dries them with her hair.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Woman initiates the dance.
• Event #2: Jesus proclaims “your sins are forgiven” to woman.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: The woman was saved at that moment … Jesus forgiving our sins is kinda the DEFINITION of being saved.
• Event #3: Jesus proclaims “your faith has saved you”.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Jesus did NOT proclaim “God has Irresistibly Drawn and Monergisticly Chosen you through no merit in yourself.” He said “YOUR FAITH” has saved you. So, yes, it is not Pelagian, but it is HER cooperation … that’s synergism.

 

[ReverendRV]

Until an Arminian comes along, I guess I’ll have to be the designated “that guy”.

Nobody is arguing for a Pelagian salvation (even a fake-Arminian like me). The request in the OP was for someone that INITIATED their own salvation. IE. Somebody that “made the first move”. Now let’s go back to that story in Luke 7.

• Event #1: Woman anoints Jesus’ feet with tears and perfume, kisses them, and dries them with her hair.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Woman initiates the dance.
• Event #2: Jesus proclaims “your sins are forgiven” to woman.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: The woman was saved at that moment … Jesus forgiving our sins is kinda the DEFINITION of being saved.
• Event #3: Jesus proclaims “your faith has saved you”.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Jesus did NOT proclaim “God has Irresistibly Drawn and Monergisticly Chosen you through no merit in yourself.” He said “YOUR FAITH” has saved you. So, yes, it is not Pelagian, but it is HER cooperation … that’s synergism.

Calvinists invented Sola Fide. We should give it a big hug, like Luther did...

We would; if it were under attack; and if Sola Gratia was safe and sound...

 

[David1701]

Until an Arminian comes along, I guess I’ll have to be the designated “that guy”.

Nobody is arguing for a Pelagian salvation (even a fake-Arminian like me). The request in the OP was for someone that INITIATED their own salvation. IE. Somebody that “made the first move”. Now let’s go back to that story in Luke 7.

• Event #1: Woman anoints Jesus’ feet with tears and perfume, kisses them, and dries them with her hair.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Woman initiates the dance.
• Event #2: Jesus proclaims “your sins are forgiven” to woman.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: The woman was saved at that moment … Jesus forgiving our sins is kinda the DEFINITION of being saved.
• Event #3: Jesus proclaims “your faith has saved you”.
  • ARMINIAN POSIT: Jesus did NOT proclaim “God has Irresistibly Drawn and Monergisticly Chosen you through no merit in yourself.” He said “YOUR FAITH” has saved you. So, yes, it is not Pelagian, but it is HER cooperation … that’s synergism.

She loved him because he first loved her...