A tough nut for Arminians to crack.

[atpollard]

She loved him because he first loved her...

Yeah, it reminds me of Lydia where God had prepared her heart in advance and then Paul arrives and everything just quickly falls into place.

(I can only play Arminian for so long).

 

[armylngst]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

Hey, devil's advocate here. (Logic argument devil's advocate type). I think they closest one could get is what Paul said to the jailer. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". Seem to put the onus on the jailer, not on God. My argument would be that it is God who empowers/grants the ability to believe by His grace.

 

[justbyfaith]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

John 1:12, Romans 10:9-13, are verses where man does something in order to be saved.

One must receive Christ...

he must confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God has raised Him from the dead...

he must call upon the name of the Lord!

 

[justbyfaith]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

Granted, Zacchaeus was presumed upon by grace because Jesus invited Himself into his home...

However, it was Zacchaeus who initiated salvation in his own life by telling Jesus that he would give half of his goods to the poor and pay back fourfold all that he had ever bamboozled. Jesus said that salvation had come to his house because of that.

So, if you want to say that Zacchaeus would not have been saved if Jesus had not invited Himself in, then I will give you that.

However, I would say, that once Jesus was in his home, Zacchaeus initiated the salvation that was given to him.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

More where those came from:

Complete INDEX OF SERMONS AND LECTURES by Charles G. Finney

 

[justbyfaith]

Mat 11:20, Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
Mat 11:21, Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Mat 11:22, But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
Mat 11:23, And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24, But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Here, Jesus holds the cities of Capernaum, Chorazin, and Bethsaida, accountable for the fact that they did not repent; saying that if the works that had been done in them, had been done in Sodom and Gomorrah and Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

The fact that they are held accountable means that they have a choice in the matter.

If they do not have a choice in the matter, then God is ultimately responsible for their rebellion; and it would seem that God arbitrarily chose them out for condemnation...that He created them to stoke the fires of hell.

That He willfully created a certain group of people with the absolute intention of tormenting them for ever and ever in hellfire and brimstone...

This would indicate that God takes pleasure in the torment of sinners...

And makes God out to be a satanic, cosmic monster rather than the God of love that I personally serve and know and love.

But if God puts people in the torments of hell as a just punishment for iniquity, then it follows that they had a choice as concerning iniquity and righteousness...

Otherwise, it would only be just for God to punish Himself for their iniquity since He is the One who was ultimately responsible for all of their sinful actions and behaviour (they do not have free will; therefore God is ultimately responsible).

This is not to be confused with the reality that God punished Himself when Jesus died in our place on the Cross of Calvary. That was done, not because God was justly punishing Himself; but because He was taking the punishment for us sinners out of an abject love for us all; as it is written in Romans 5:8, John 3:16.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I asked this in another thread.
So here’s the question again.

I hope we all agree that scripture is the final authority? All things should be tested by scripture.
Good, I’m glad you all agree.

Question:
Can anyone give me one (just one) example where salvation was initiated by man in scripture?

Thanks.

Won't find it.

Everyone who had a positive relationship with God was called and in Covenant.
Even Nebuchadnezzar and Judas Iscariot for starters.

 

[civic]

Yes, amen.

Do Arminians teach man initiates salvation? I'm not certain whether I've seen any do this.

Correct as Arminius taught that was impossible in mans fallen state and condition .

Jacob Arminius writes,

“IN the state of Primitive Innocence, man had a mind endued with a clear understanding of heavenly light and truth concerning God, and his works and will, as far as was sufficient for the salvation of man and the glory of God; he had a heart imbued with ‘righteousness and true holiness,’ and with a true and saving love of good; and powers abundantly qualified or furnished perfectly to fulfill the law which God had imposed on him. This admits easily of proof, from the description of the image of God, after which man is said to have been created, (Gen 1:26-27) from the law divinely imposed on him, which had a promise and a threat appended to it, (Gen 2:17) and lastly from the analogous restoration of the same image in Christ Jesus. (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10)



But man was not so confirmed in this state of innocence, as to be incapable of being moved, by the representation presented to him of some good, (whether it was of an inferior kind and relating to this animal life, or of a superior-kind and relating to spiritual life) inordinately and unlawfully to look upon it and to desire it, and of his own spontaneous as well as free motion, and through a preposterous desire for that good, to decline from the obedience which had been prescribed to him. Nay, having turned away from the light of his own mind and his chief good, which is God, or, at least, having turned towards that chief good not in the manner in which he ought to have done, and besides having turned in mind and heart towards an inferior good, he transgressed the command given to him for life. By this foul deed, he precipitated himself from that noble and elevated condition into a state of the deepest infelicity, which is under the dominion of sin. For ‘to whom any one yields himself a servant to obey,’ (Rom 6:16) and ‘of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage,’ and is his regularly assigned slave. (2 Pet 2:19)



In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, ‘Without me ye can do nothing.’ St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: ‘Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.’ That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.” 6



Arminius further writes,

“THIS is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.” 7

Jacobus Arminius: Works of James Arminius, Vol. 1 - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

www.ccel.org

 

[armylngst]

John 1:12, Romans 10:9-13, are verses where man does something in order to be saved.

One must receive Christ...

he must confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in his heart that God has raised Him from the dead...

he must call upon the name of the Lord!

The question was if this showed salvation initiated by man. All of this could have easily been initiated by God through this thing known as grace. God granting the ability for man to believe. Or, as Jesus put it in John 6, the Father drawing them to Him.

 

[Alive]

Let's have a look at something Jesus said and dig into the sentence a bit.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“No man”—this is an absolute and universal statement. In other words it is a absolute negative including in it all men, so that not a single man of all mankind:

“can” this word follows and points to ‘ability’—be able. It does not mean ‘may’ as pointing to ‘permission’, but speaks clearly to ability. No man has the ability.

What is He talking about? He is talking about an ability to “come to me”. “No man is able to come to me…”

Next Jesus introduces a condition with the word ‘except’ or as many translate the word ‘unless’. This is a conditional statement. This “come to me” cannot happen unless that condition be satisfied.

How is the condition satisfied? Jesus says clearly: “except the Father which hath sent me draw him:”

Can any man come to Jesus on his own? What did Jesus say?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



Where do we see the effort of man here?

 

[Carbon]

Let's have a look at something Jesus said and dig into the sentence a bit.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

“No man”—this is an absolute and universal statement. In other words it is a absolute negative including in it all men, so that not a single man of all mankind:

“can” this word follows and points to ‘ability’—be able. It does not mean ‘may’ as pointing to ‘permission’, but speaks clearly to ability. No man has the ability.

What is He talking about? He is talking about an ability to “come to me”. “No man is able to come to me…”

Next Jesus introduces a condition with the word ‘except’ or as many translate the word ‘unless’. This is a conditional statement. This “come to me” cannot happen unless that condition be satisfied.

How is the condition satisfied? Jesus says clearly: “except the Father which hath sent me draw him:”

Can any man come to Jesus on his own? What did Jesus say?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



Where do we see the effort of man here?

Amen