A Question about Spirit

[QVQ]

In Genesis, God decreed for the sons of Adam, East of Eden
In Job, Satan, to interfere with Job, had to petition God for any authority

When I have posted on other Christian forums, there are posters who state that God handed the world over to Satan temporarily
God has withdrawn and Satan rules
Is this standard Christian Theology?
What denominations teach this?
In this theology, Adam chose Satan. God washed his hands and then with Christ, God had mercy on fallen man.
It is a "free will" argument. That man has agency separate from God to choose God or Satan

Some posters have claimed that God can only act in this world when specifically petitioned in prayer.
This may be a variation rather than a widely held belief in the Satan rules theology

 

[makesends]

While I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, wondering what's the relevance of the title and the first sentence, the question of just what happened between God and Satan and the meaning of the various statements in scripture about Satan's authority in this world. I'm not sure just how to answer that.

Maybe you could do a search for the Bible phrases/passages that seem to use that terminology or seem to be talking about that, to get the question better organized.

 

[makesends]

Some posters have claimed that God can only act in this world when specifically petitioned in prayer.
This may be a variation rather than a widely held belief in the Satan rules theology

Definitely a bogus notion! God does what he does, though he does delight in our speaking to him. And whatever we ask according to his will, he will do.

 

[QVQ]

I was talking in a generally playful way, as being moved by a whim, as moved by the spirit
And I didn't capitalize it
The poster said the spirit in this world is Satan
The other poster then stated that God had relinquished control of the world to Satan temporarily.
Now when I get serious about Spirit, it means the One and Only.
I can see the world is the devil's playground but only as a temptor in the external world or perhaps as a manipulator fo our lusts and other sinful tendencies. Satan doesn't have the power over our souls that the Holy Spirit does. Satan takes advantage of our sinful natures, as a seducer, not as a Power to make us one wit less or more than we are.
The Holy Spirit is a counselor, a comforter.
God and the Holy Spirit have always been active in this world. God rules the world, even Satan, whatever Satan is allowed.
So is the spirit in this world Satan? Or is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit and no other?

 

[makesends]

I was talking in a generally playful way, as being moved by a whim, as moved by the spirit
And I didn't capitalize it
The poster said the spirit in this world is Satan

I should think that would need a particular passage where that terminology is used.

The other poster then stated that God had relinquished control of the world to Satan temporarily.

Same. Needs a passage and verse. (Not from you, but from them) But maybe somebody reading this can play devil's advocate here.

Now when I get serious about Spirit, it means the One and Only.
I can see the world is the devil's playground but only as a temptor in the external world or perhaps as a manipulator fo our lusts and other sinful tendencies.

Yes. It's hard to draw definite lines as to what he can and can't do, or what can be or cannot be attributed to Satan.

Satan doesn't have the power over our souls that the Holy Spirit does.

Amen that, and thank God.

Satan takes advantage of our sinful natures, as a seducer, not as a Power to make us one wit less or more than we are.

That's not so easy to define. One thing that does seem to be true, is that Satan does focus his particular efforts where it will render him the most result. In a strange application to what God said, that according to our own standard we will be measured, where we render unto the flesh instead of unto God, Sin becomes our master, and Satan is not unrelated to that. I don't want to attribute to Satan what is not his, but it isn't safe to fail to attribute to him what is his doing. Scripture is replete with statements seemingly almost equating Sin with Satan. And it seems plain that Sin in scripture carries an active death-ish personality, creepy and controlling. "7. Sin crouches at the threshold. It desires to have you!" Genesis 4

The Holy Spirit is a counselor, a comforter.
God and the Holy Spirit have always been active in this world. God rules the world, even Satan, whatever Satan is allowed.
So is the spirit in this world Satan? Or is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit and no other?

Again, need references, specific places in scripture concerning this terminology. We can deal with individual statements. I think it would be a mistake to make sweeping statements here.

 

[makesends]

I was talking in a generally playful way, as being moved by a whim, as moved by the spirit
And I didn't capitalize it
The poster said the spirit in this world is Satan
The other poster then stated that God had relinquished control of the world to Satan temporarily.
Now when I get serious about Spirit, it means the One and Only.
I can see the world is the devil's playground but only as a temptor in the external world or perhaps as a manipulator fo our lusts and other sinful tendencies. Satan doesn't have the power over our souls that the Holy Spirit does. Satan takes advantage of our sinful natures, as a seducer, not as a Power to make us one wit less or more than we are.
The Holy Spirit is a counselor, a comforter.
God and the Holy Spirit have always been active in this world. God rules the world, even Satan, whatever Satan is allowed.
So is the spirit in this world Satan? Or is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit and no other?

The position WE are in concerning Satan and his hordes, and particularly concerning Satan himself, is a strange and somewhat incomprehensible one. Not here meaning to get into the question of slavery of the reprobate, but more the place of redeemed humanity as designed by God, we are both inestimably below him in power, yet we apparently have authority above his, in some way we don't know how to describe and should not be careless to use, (though we can be confident that God will protect us).

(This is also another of the "already but not yet" sort of thing. "For a little while lower than the angels" is in some versions referring to Christ, and in others, to "man" —I wouldn't be surprised if God intended that phenomenon for a reason— we ARE identified with Christ).

 

[QVQ]

(This is also another of the "already but not yet" sort of thing. "For a little while lower than the angels" is in some versions referring to Christ, and in others, to "man" —I wouldn't be surprised if God intended that phenomenon for a reason— we ARE identified with Christ).

The impression I get overall of Satan is that when Satan is an entity rather than an influence, he is dealing directly with God
That is evident in the Book of Job and the encounters with Christ in the Gospels.
It is Satan's relationship to God that is dynamic
Satan's relationship to man does appear to be one of dominion.
Christ clearly identified and called out Satan when man was blind to Satan.
So it is only through Christ that we can realize our own bondage to sin
But Satan is still subject to God. So God is the Power and the Glory.

What caught my attention was the idea that Satan was the spirit in this world, a simple opposite of the Holy Spirit.
The idea that Satan could masquerade as the Holy Spirit to lead men astray
That man couldn't tell the difference.
And perhaps man can't, even the redeemed.
But God gave us Scripture to know His Word and recognize it when we hear it.

Note: When I was totally depraved, I didn't have any sense of Higher Power.
It was only when I became aware of God that I realized the other realms.
My focus then was entirely on God
I never developed any particular theology about Satan other than what was presented in the Bible.
So I may appear naive or confused but it is the fact that God has my attention.
Satan at this point is a beast prowling around the door but I am safe within the Faith.

 

[Eleanor]

While I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, wondering what's the relevance of the title and the first sentence, the question of just what happened between God and Satan and the meaning of the various statements in scripture about Satan's authority in this world. I'm not sure just how to answer that.

I'm thinkin' that God has decreed a controversy with Satan in which
God will be glorified through the church (Eph 3:8-11)
by overcoming Satan in such a way that he will no longer contest (Job 1:9-11, Zec 3:1-2, Rev 12:10),
but will be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Ro 3:4, Php 2:10-11).
God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but he will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).

 

[makesends]

I'm thinkin' that God has decreed a controversy with Satan in which
God will be glorified through the church (Eph 3:8-11)

Can you 'expand' on this a bit? Reading that reference to "rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms", I have to admit it is quite a bit beyond my ken.

by overcoming Satan in such a way that he will no longer contest (Job 1:9-11, Zec 3:1-2, Rev 12:10),
but will be obliged to agree that God is just and right (Ro 3:4, Php 2:10-11).
God is Judge and, therefore, he will not only execute justice, but he will oblige all to agree with it (Php 2:10-11),
for he will be cleared and vindicated of any charges of injustice when he judges (Ro 3:4).

I love that God completely buttons down all fact, and cancels out all noises, even though he didn't really "need to", being as how he is Lord over all, and all he had to do to prove himself right is to say so. Even that "Who are you, oh man?", of Romans 9 is not just a pompous beat-down, but a logical argument.

Reading from CS Lewis' Narnia Series, I think in The Last Battle (in my teens, I think it was) I was struck by the seeming silliness of Aslan (a figure of Christ) discussing terms with the White Witch, when he didn't need to do that at all, nor was there need for battle, because he had all authority to do as he wished, and could have destroyed her with a breath. I was frustrated that he deigned to even speak with her. As in Job, I find it outrageous that he would bother to prove his point to Satan. (It's enough to me to ask, who does Satan think he is? —So why would God care what Satan thinks? Who does God think Satan is?) But he will silence every contrary thought.


Not that what you say here will not be agreed by all, after all our debate is done, but, what is your view on the claims the OP references? In what way is Satan the Lord of this Earth, Prince of the air, and so on? If reasonable, answer with Bible references.

And what about the subsequent subjects, the notions of God's impotence without our prayers, and of God having withdrawn, handing the world over to Satan? Where do they find their basis? What is true about them, and what is false?

 

[QVQ]

As in Job, I find it outrageous that he would bother to prove his point to Satan. (It's enough to me to ask, who does Satan think he is? —So why would God care what Satan thinks?

For our edification?
God does not have to read the Bible to know God
We do
God was playing Satan to address the audience.

*It has the feel of a set piece in literature. It is a way to introduce elements that may be known to the actors but not to the audience.
(JMHO)

 

[fastfredy0]

When I have posted on other Christian forums, there are posters who state that God handed the world over to Satan temporarily
God has withdrawn and Satan rules
Is this standard Christian Theology?

I don't know what the definition of "standard Christian Theology" is. It is true that Satan is the ruler of this rule per: John 12:31 which states, "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out," where "the prince of this world" is understood to mean Satan.
The devil is in the details(pun intended). The details consist of who determines how Satan will rule which is a question you didn't ask.

What denominations teach this?

Beats me ... I suppose any denomination that agrees with John 12:31

 

[QVQ]

The details consist of who determines how Satan will rule which is a question you didn't ask.

The question is, did God entirely withdraw, wash His hands and walk away?
But that is possibly too broad a scope for one thread.

Beats me ... I suppose any denomination that agrees with John 12:31

This is what puzzles me
The discussion I was referencing was about free will

1) Adam chose Satan
2) Man fell under the dominion of the Satan
3) God offers man a path to redemption through Jesus Christ
4) Man can freely accept Christ or not, just as Adam did

There is a distribution of power to Satan and man
Satan only has the power God gives him
But God did not give Satan the power of God
And unregenerate man, as he is blind to Satan is also blind to God

It may be the poster was simply their own interpretation.
It prompted me to think because God is sovereign in my scheme of things.
Also, I can agree with John 12:31 but the rest of it...?
It is not my understanding so I thought i would check it out with trusted Christians on this site.

 

[fastfredy0]

The question is, did God entirely withdraw, wash His hands and walk away?

God is omnipresent so He never is "entirely withdrawn".
He is the cause of all things. "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father's care."
In the story of Job Satan has to ask God what Satan is allowed to do. Satan is controlled by God.
Scriptures show that everything done in the world is according to his decree, declares that the things which seem most fortuitous are subject to him. In like manners who does not attribute the [casting of the] lot to the blindness of Fortune? Not so the Lord, who claims the decision for himself (Proverbs 16:33). By God’s providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined. Calvin, John. Institutes of the Christian Religion Kindle Edition.

God gave Adam a choice
1) Adam chose Satan
2) Man fell under the dominion of the Prince
3) God offers man a path to redemption through Jesus Christ
4) Man can freely accept Christ or not, just as Adam did

Agreed on Point 1 and 2. God gave Adam a choice but the deeper question is: Who created Adam's desires? These desires determined Adam's choice. We don't chose our desires and even if we did we would be an empty slate with no motivation to pick this desire or that one. Adam's desires are given to him. All outcomes are effects of the initial (first) cause which is God. Only an eternal being could create desires in other creations.

Disagreed on points 3 and 4. Points 3 and is false if by "man" you mean all men. This is proven by observation for to be saved one must know of Christ, yet billions have died having never heard the gospel.
Point 4 is also probably false, but one must define "free" first. Again, men are free to choose according to their desires, but men don't pick their desires.

 

[QVQ]

Again, men are free to choose according to their desires, but men don't pick their desires.

That is the point I understand.
An unregenerate man who is blind to Satan is also blind to God.
Ask any atheist.

It is the point I know, Christ could see Satan plainly and call him out.
Identifying Satan was one thing Christ did repeatedly because men were blind to Satan as an entity.
Although they are painfully aware of his influence.

 

[Eleanor]

Can you 'expand' on this a bit? Reading that reference to "rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms", I have to admit it is quite a bit beyond my ken.

Rev 12:7-10 presents a war in heaven, where Michael, the archangel, and his angels defeats the dragon (Satan) and his angels, and they are cast out of heaven.
Satan was the serpent in the Garden, who deceives the world (Rev 12:9).

Angels are spirit beings, both good and bad, without bodies, who are governing powers in the unseen (heavenly realms).

Through the church, God is making known his manifold wisdom to those rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms (Eph 3:10).

I understand it all as creation being God's manifestation of the glory of his justice and of his mercy (love) to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.

Scripture doesn't tell us much more than that.

I love that God completely buttons down all fact, and cancels out all noises, even though he didn't really "need to", being as how he is Lord over all, and all he had to do to prove himself right is to say so. Even that "Who are you, oh man?", of Romans 9 is not just a pompous beat-down, but a logical argument.

Reading from CS Lewis' Narnia Series, I think in The Last Battle (in my teens, I think it was) I was struck by the seeming silliness of Aslan (a figure of Christ) discussing terms with the White Witch, when he didn't need to do that at all, nor was there need for battle, because he had all authority to do as he wished, and could have destroyed her with a breath. I was frustrated that he deigned to even speak with her. As in Job, I find it outrageous that he would bother to prove his point to Satan. (It's enough to me to ask, who does Satan think he is? —So why would God care what Satan thinks? Who does God think Satan is?) But he will silence every contrary thought.


Not that what you say here will not be agreed by all, after all our debate is done, but, what is your view on the claims the OP references? In what way is Satan the Lord of this Earth, Prince of the air, and so on? If reasonable, answer with Bible references.

And what about the subsequent subjects, the notions of God's impotence without our prayers, and of God having withdrawn, handing the world over to Satan? Where do they find their basis? What is true about them, and what is false?

 

[Eleanor]

duplicate

 

[makesends]

For our edification?
God does not have to read the Bible to know God
We do
God was playing Satan to address the audience.

*It has the feel of a set piece in literature. It is a way to introduce elements that may be known to the actors but not to the audience.
(JMHO)

YEP! My favorite is to tell self-proclaimed atheists and agnostics and those who complain [claim] that God is no longer relevant, when they ask why does Job have to go through this, "—so that we'd talk about it here!"

 

[prism]

When I have posted on other Christian forums, there are posters who state that God handed the world over to Satan temporarily
God has withdrawn and Satan rules

So satan is Lord?

Is this standard Christian Theology?

No.

What denominations teach this?

Maybe a non-Christian Denomination?

In this theology, Adam chose Satan. God washed his hands and then with Christ, God had mercy on fallen man.

Even before Christ, we had Genesis 3:15, which spoke of Christ.

It is a "free will" argument. That man has agency separate from God to choose God or Satan

Wasn't there a movie a while back called Free-Willy?

Some posters have claimed that God can only act in this world when specifically petitioned in prayer.
This may be a variation rather than a widely held belief in the Satan rules theology

You wonder how God acted in the first place even before man prayed.

 

[QVQ]

So satan is Lord?

Well, there is an Answer
IF Satan had complete dominion, we would all be in hell.

As it is, this world is not the best of all possible worlds but there is a taste of heaven here. There are things here you hope to see and have even beyond the heavenly gates which means God is very much still in this world. He gives us, even the atheist, so much to enjoy and be thankful for.

 

[makesends]

QVQ said:
When I have posted on other Christian forums, there are posters who state that God handed the world over to Satan temporarily
God has withdrawn and Satan rules
Is this standard Christian Theology?

I don't know what the definition of "standard Christian Theology" is. It is true that Satan is the ruler of this rule per: John 12:31 which states, "Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the prince of this world be cast out," where "the prince of this world" is understood to mean Satan.
The devil is in the details(pun intended). The details consist of who determines how Satan will rule which is a question you didn't ask.


Beats me ... I suppose any denomination that agrees with John 12:31

It seems to me that there's a huge difference between John 12:31's "prince of this world" and @QVQ 's representation of posters' statements, "God handed the world over to Satan temporarily", and, "God has withdrawn and Satan rules".

In the same way that Satan needed permission to wreak havoc in Job's case, there's nothing Satan has ever done that God didn't intend for God's own good purposes.

IMHO there has never been a time where Satan can even "draw a breath" aside from God's causation. (And no, for the casual reader looking for something criticize, I am not saying that Satan breathes.)