A proposition (Calvinistic or no?)

[atpollard]

this is not of yourselves is speaking of grace; not faith.

The Greek will not permit that based on the gender of the gift.
(“Grace” makes the sentence nonsensical … how could anyone provide their own unmerited favor? Why even mention it?)

 

[ReverendRV]

But we are not regenerated through faith?

Correct, we're not Regenerated through Faith. Faith is something Good we do. Saint Paul said there is no one who does Good, no not One. This is the starting point for All people. We only do anything God thinks as Good, after we are Regenerated...

 

[justbyfaith]

“Already and not yet”.

• We were saved when God predestined us according to His plan (before the foundation of the world, when our names were written in His book of life). At that point the “die was cast” - as the saying goes - and God’s plan WILL happen exactly as God intends it to unfold.
• We are saved at some point in time when we obey the command and are sealed with the Holy Spirit as a ‘Surety’ that guarantees that God WILL redeem His property … but what we will become (“like Him”) has not yet been manifested into complete reality.
• We will be saved when we shed mortality and take on immortality, as only then will we be fully saved and glorified. Yet the END was foreknown and a forgone conclusion from the beginning. God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy … NOTHING will stop that or alter God’s plan.

1) we are sealed after having believed (Ephesians 1:13-14).

2) In Romans 10:9, we "shall be saved" as the result of (in short) "calling on the name of the Lord".

Even if this is speaking of being saved in the future (at the judgment seat of Christ), it should be clear that those who are not saved at the judgment seat of Christ are not of the elect.

Think about this for a moment.

One is not ultimately saved unless they do the things prescribed in Romans 10:9,13.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Greek will not permit that based on the gender of the gift.
(“Grace” makes the sentence nonsensical … how could anyone provide their own unmerited favor? Why even mention it?)

Because it is a truth that is revealed by that scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

Correct, we're not Regenerated through Faith. Faith is something Good we do. Saint Paul said there is no one who does Good, no not One. This is the starting point for All people. We only do anything God thinks as Good, after we are Regenerated...

That again places God as the first cause of everything; and makes Him responsible for murder, rape, and incest.

 

[atpollard]

I think that the Calvinistic theology is too complicated for me.

Start by pretending, just for a moment, that GOD is both ALL POWERFUL (He can do anything) and GOD is IN CONTROL (He does control everything) … and then read Scripture from that starting assumption.

 

[justbyfaith]

The Greek will not permit that based on the gender of the gift.
(“Grace” makes the sentence nonsensical … how could anyone provide their own unmerited favor? Why even mention it?)

Please expound further.

 

[justbyfaith]

Start by pretending, just for a moment, that GOD is both ALL POWERFUL (He can do anything) and GOD is IN CONTROL (He does control everything) … and then read Scripture from that starting assumption.

I start with the assumption that God is righteous and holy.

And I find that that is compromised by some Calvinistic teachings.

 

[atpollard]

I start with the assumption that God is righteous and holy.

By what yardstick can a finite man (limited creation) measure the righteousness or holiness of God (infinite creator)?
So you are measuring God according to human standards of what is good and right and then forcing the scripture to match the resulting “god shaped idol” (human construct).

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[ReverendRV]

That again places God as the first cause of everything; and makes Him responsible for murder, rape, and incest.

How?

The Bible says Joseph's brothers sold him into Slavery. They meant it for Evil but God meant it for Good, for the saving of many lives...

Let's apply your premise to this. God meant for Joseph to be sold into Slavery, so God is responsible for the Slave Trade; right?

You MUST agree with this, and call God a Sinner. But if God can do this and not be a Sinner like Joseph's brothers, he can't be blamed for any Sin you committed either. You believe in God's Providence in your life? Also believe in God's Providence in Joseph's life. To not do so, is you committing the Logical Fallacy of making your Case through Special Pleading...

You do realize that because you are speaking with me about these things, you're giving me a lot of opportunities to make good sense to the Lurkers; right? In arguing against Calvinism, you now argue like an Atheist. They use this 'God is Culpable for causing Sin' Objection too; it's called "The Problem of Evil"...

If you have an answer to the Problem of Evil, you already know God is not Culpable for Sin as the First Cause. Please stop using it against Calvinism...

 

[atpollard]

Please expound further.

Every Greek word has a gender (male, female or neuter) and things like nouns must have the same gender to identify which noun goes with which pronoun. Here is the verse with gender identified:

[Eph 2:8 NASB] For by grace[f] you have been saved[m] through faith[f]; and this[n] is not of yourselves, it is[n] the gift[n] of God[m];

“this” and “gift” are both ‘neuter’ in Greek, so whatever they refer to cannot be either ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’. Therefore, Greek grammar will not allow any one of the following:

• grace[f]
• saved[m]
• faith[f]

to be either “this” or “the gift”. If any one of them was “this” or “the gift”, then the Greek would have not been ‘neuter’ but would have matched either the ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ of the word that was the “gift” and “this”. The only meaning that works with Greek grammar and a ‘neuter’ “gift” is for the gift to be both masculine AND feminine, thus making ‘neuter’ the appropriate gender for a mixed gift. In the verse (Ephesians 2:8), that means that both “this” and “the gift” are the whole phrase “by grace[f] you have been saved[m] through faith[f]” … grace, saved and faith are ALL “this” (“not of yourselves”) and “the gift” (“of God”).

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure. That's the reason.

and I see your true colors, shining through...

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul applied that scripture to the new covenant.

Doesn't matter. In the original context it was referring to Israel.

 

[justbyfaith]

Fear of the lake of fire is not sinful.

It is not meritorious either.

 

[ReverendRV]

Every Greek word has a gender (male, female or neuter) and things like nouns must have the same gender to identify which noun goes with which pronoun. Here is the verse with gender identified:

[Eph 2:8 NASB] For by grace[f] you have been saved[m] through faith[f]; and this[n] is not of yourselves, it is[n] the gift[n] of God[m];

“this” and “gift” are both ‘neuter’ in Greek, so whatever they refer to cannot be either ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’. Therefore, Greek grammar will not allow any one of the following:

• grace[f]
• saved[m]
• faith[f]

to be either “this” or “the gift”. If any one of them was “this” or “the gift”, then the Greek would have not been ‘neuter’ but would have matched either the ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ of the word that was the “gift” and “this”. The only meaning that works with Greek grammar and a ‘neuter’ “gift” is for the gift to be both masculine AND feminine, thus making ‘neuter’ the appropriate gender for a mixed gift. In the verse (Ephesians 2:8), that means that both “this” and “the gift” are the whole phrase “by grace[f] you have been saved[m] through faith[f]” … grace, saved and faith are ALL “this” (“not of yourselves”) and “the gift” (“of God”).

Yes, the Compound "by Grace through Faith" is the Gift...

 

[justbyfaith]

How?

The Bible says Joseph's brothers sold him into Slavery. They meant it for Evil but God meant it for Good, for the saving of many lives...

Let's apply your premise to this. God meant for Joseph to be sold into Slavery, so God is responsible for the Slave Trade; right?

You MUST agree with this, and call God a Sinner. But if God can do this and not be a Sinner like Joseph's brothers, he can't be blamed for any Sin you committed either. You believe in God's Providence in your life? Also believe in God's Providence in Joseph's life. To not do so, is you committing the Logical Fallacy of making your Case through Special Pleading...

You do realize that because you are speaking with me about these things, you're giving me a lot of opportunities to make good sense to the Lurkers; right? In arguing against Calvinism, you now argue like an Atheist. They use this 'God is Culpable for causing Sin' Objection too; it's called "The Problem of Evil"...

If you have an answer to the Problem of Evil, you already know God is not Culpable for Sin as the First Cause. Please stop using it against Calvinism...

Of course the point is, that if God is the First Cause of everything, then He is the First Cause of murder and rape and incest.

So, in holding God innocent, you must be saying that He is not the First Cause of everything...

 

[justbyfaith]

By what yardstick can a finite man (limited creation) measure the righteousness or holiness of God (infinite creator)?
So you are measuring God according to human standards of what is good and right and then forcing the scripture to match the resulting “god shaped idol” (human construct).

What could possibly go wrong?

Even man's conception of what is righteous cannot be more than what God considers to be righteous.

So, God's conception of righteousness, being more than ours, is not going to compromise a lesser righteousness that is held by the conception of man.

Surely, if mankind holds murder and rape and incest to be sin, God's conception of righteousness cannot be a lesser construct; wherein He holds these things to be righteous.

I say again, if God is the First Cause of everything, then He is the First Cause of murder and rape and incest.

I would say that Adam and Eve's sin (or else satan's pride) is the first cause of everything sinful in the Universe.

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course the point is, that if God is the First Cause of everything, then He is the First Cause of murder and rape and incest.

I know that was your point, but thanks for the opportunity to make my defense to the Lurkers. When it comes to Posters who don't care about good points, I have learned I am not really speaking to them; but to orher Readers like Lurkers. Your point is Moot because it is only an assertion without substance...

Do you believe in the Providence of God? Practically every Christian does. This is why you can't get a Christian to accept that God is guilty for governing them...

 

[justbyfaith]

They use this 'God is Culpable for causing Sin' Objection too; it's called "The Problem of Evil"...

And of course that problem must be answered by those who hold to the Christian faith.

As a non-Calvinist, I have an answer.

Do you?

1Pe 3:15, But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[justbyfaith]

I know that was your point, but thanks for the opportunity to make my defense to the Lurkers. When it comes to Posters who don't care about good points, I have learned I am not really speaking to them; but to orher Readers like Lurkers. Your point is Moot because it is only an assertion without substance...

Do you believe in the Providence of God? Practically every Christian does. This is why you can't get a Christian to accept that God is guilty for governing them...

The only way that God is not guilty is if He is not the First Cause of everything sinful in the Universe.

Yet Calvinists appear to deny this.

I find that this is a problem in their theology.