A problem with premillennialism

[Arial]

I am as a believer commanded and instructed to see the same Jesus of the bible and say the same thing as God.
And I do.
Gentiles are NOTHING!
Gentiles are NOTHING in God's eyes.
There. I've said the same thing as God.

Where does God say Gentiles are nothing? You say He does, so it should be easy enough for you to show us where He does.

 

[Arial]

My justification is completed. I have been declared by God as having obeyed ALL His Law perfectly and obediently and this is the basis of His declaring me, "NOT GUILTY!"

So you don't have to keep it, but believing "Gentiles" do? Oh wait---according to you they are nothing to God anyway so it wouldn't even matter if they did.

Why are you spending your time, and call it your mission, railing against us "Gentiles"? Why would God send you, as you claim, to preach something to "Gentiles" that had nothing to do with them? According to you, they cannot be saved, cannot have a covenantal (personal) relationship to Him, and so it does not matter what they think or believe. They are condemned, according to you, whether they believe what you say or not.

And what you say about them, if they believed it, would do nothing but remove all possibility of salvation, and therefore no reason to turn to Him and worship Him.

Unless of course, they do as you do, a self confessed non Jew (but also not a Gentile), that since they believe in the person and work of Christ as presented in the Scripture, then that means they have some untraceable speck of Abraham's DNA in them.

You present a racist God and a racist gospel, and that comes, not from the word of God, but from the heart of the man.

 

[Arial]

Jesus taught the children of Israel God's Law. Examples of this are in Matthew 5.
As believers we would have the same instruction and that is to teach others in the body of Christ God's Law. There's no other set of Laws given to God's people to live by. Some pastors do this on Sunday mornings when they say, "let's turn to Isaiah 53," or "Psalms 22," or "Exodus 20." But the right pastors do not teach letter of the Law, but spirit of the Law as did all the Lord's apostles and then some.

Your anti-Gentile posts show not one hint of the spirit of the Law. Not one.

 

[Arial]

I have found in Saul's letters he contradicts himself on major doctrine three times, changes a word of an Old Testament prophecy to make the prophecy say something else entirely in one of his letters. I also know that Gentiles who collected scrolls to put together a bible chose out writings that seem to support Gentile positions of doctrine, such as those that seem to claim Gentiles in the Abrahamic Covenant or that Gentiles have replaced Israel as God's "Church" "Bride" "Elect", even terms like "saint" that describe Israel and make them apply to Gentiles in our present dispensation. It's called "Inheritance theft" and Gentiles are guilty of it.

In other words the Bible can't be trusted, but you can be?

 

[Arial]

Yes, that's the theology of Gentiles to discredit the Hebrews' place in their own covenants. It's usurpation of Israel as God's Chosen people, His Church, His Bride because pathological people do this behavior as they are self-conscious about themselves and have a crazed mental condition.

 

[Arial]

Peter's authority is not "vastly authoritative than [mine.] Authority merely means being given permission to do a thing.

What was the authority given to Peter and the other apostles (of which you are NOT one?) To lay the foundation of His church, with Him as the chief cornerstone. What is the foundation of the church? The doctrinal teachings and revelation by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, of His church, that are given to us in the NT. The book is closed, the foundation laid, and anything built on a different foundation than that one will be burned up.(1 Cor 3:10-15) Notice in there that it says IF what has been build survives, the builder will suffer loss, the false teaching will be burned up but he will escape as one escaping through the flames. If a person is building on an entirely different foundation, they will not survive.

You have been preaching a non-gospel.

 

[Arial]

God's Law reveals God's grace. But Gentiles have this idea that by misinterpreting passages of Scripture they set Law and grace against each other.

That is your anti-Gentile rant, but it is a lie. If your never bother to actually hear what they say, but cling tenaciously to this rant, it shows a spirit of hate.

 

[Musicmaster]

I'm Hebrew, and fellow descendent of Abraham as are all other Jews, and for any one of us to say that Gentiles are nothing...that is a reflection of what many in the religious leadership of ancient Israel believed. Why else would the Gentiles be kept from entering into the temple commons, and made to have to leap through numerous hoops to become proselytes, only to remain second class citizens?

Yahshuah died for ALL men, and thus fulfilling all the Law. We Jews were tasked with being a light of Yah unto all the world. Instead, many of us adopted the trashy notion that Gentiles are beneath us, which was wrong. We were cut off and blinded because of our pride and our indifference to the words of Yah, standing instead upon a foundation of traditions that were and are opposed to the very Yah we claim to believe.

We were and are hypocrites who deny the Lord Yah has for ALL the world, for it was Jew who was inspired to write that Yahshuah loved the WHOLE world enough to lay down His Life and ransom for all!

Wow. I thought the rabbis of my past were bad, but now to see this... What a shameful attitude some harbor to this day. We were and are mistreated because of Yahshuah AND because of how we have treated others throughout all of time!

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

That is your anti-Gentile rant, but it is a lie. If your never bother to actually hear what they say, but cling tenaciously to this rant, it shows a spirit of hate.

The mentality expressed in that other view of Gentiles is precisely what characterized a group of men whom Yahshuah declared to be a den of vipers, and white washed tombs filled with dead men's bones. Some among us are simply worthy of that rebuke from Yahshuah. I was once of that mind, but no longer since He washed me clean and brought me through the new birth.

MM

 

[Arial]

Yahshuah died for ALL men, and thus fulfilling all the Law. We Jews were tasked with being a light of Yah unto all the world. Instead, many of us adopted the trashy notion that Gentiles are beneath us, which was wrong. We were cut off and blinded because of our pride and our indifference to the words of Yah, standing instead upon a foundation of traditions that were and are opposed to the very Yah we claim to believe.

I would say Israel was, rather than Jews, as Jews, originally, was a designation of of the Southern Kingdom, but yes, I know what you mean.

I have just recently began to recognize that specific purpose of Israel becoming a nation as a road towards the fulfillment of the covenant of redemption, in it's detail. And that was brought to my attention by Far As the Curse if Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption by Michael D Williams. If you have not read it, you may find it interesting.

It is amazing, how if we keep digging and searching the things of God, pursuing other perspectives than our own, we keep growing in our knowledge and understanding of Him and the unsurpassed and inexpressible glory of God seen in the Covenant of Redemption. (Always checking everything with the Scripture, of course.) Not learning new truths but more of the same truths.

 

[Musicmaster]

I would say Israel was, rather than Jews, as Jews, originally, was a designation of of the Southern Kingdom, but yes, I know what you mean.

I have just recently began to recognize that specific purpose of Israel becoming a nation as a road towards the fulfillment of the covenant of redemption, in it's detail. And that was brought to my attention by Far As the Curse if Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption by Michael D Williams. If you have not read it, you may find it interesting.

It is amazing, how if we keep digging and searching the things of God, pursuing other perspectives than our own, we keep growing in our knowledge and understanding of Him and the unsurpassed and inexpressible glory of God seen in the Covenant of Redemption. (Always checking everything with the Scripture, of course.) Not learning new truths but more of the same truths.

That pretty much gives voice as to why I, as a Messianic Jew, have come to the premillennial, pre-trib rapture position. I've read copious materials covering the other positions, and they just didn't ring true with what I was reading in scripture. Rather than the Masoretic texts, I subscribe the Septuagint, which was translated about five to six centuries before the existence of the Masoretic texts. I also stand behind the Received Texts of the NT rather than the small hand full of texts that, although older than most of the Received Texts, are also known to have been altered numerous times and that disagree with one another FAR more than the Received Texts disagree among themselves.

Just where I am at this point.

As to lineage, mine hails from the northern 10 tribes that were scattered by the Assyrians invasion around 722 BC (if I recall the date correctly).

MM

 

[Arial]

That pretty much gives voice as to why I, as a Messianic Jew, have come to the premillennial, pre-trib rapture position. I've read copious materials covering the other positions, and they just didn't ring true with what I was reading in scripture. Rather than the Masoretic texts, I subscribe the Septuagint, which was translated about five to six centuries before the existence of the Masoretic texts. I also stand behind the Received Texts of the NT rather than the small hand full of texts that, although older than most of the Received Texts, are also known to have been altered numerous times and that disagree with one another FAR more than the Received Texts disagree among themselves.

Just where I am at this point.

As to lineage, mine hails from the northern 10 tribes that were scattered by the Assyrians invasion around 722 BC (if I recall the date correctly).

MM

As to your millennial views, have you read A Case For Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger? If not, it is worth a read to see the other side of the story, if for no other reason.

 

[Musicmaster]

As to your millennial views, have you read A Case For Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times by Kim Riddlebarger? If not, it is worth a read to see the other side of the story, if for no other reason.

I've read many different forms of Amillennialism, Even authors like Hanagraaff, with some of them preterist and some not so preterist, and some in between. There's more interpretations out there then there is a stick big enough to shake at them all. Thanks for the recommendation, but for the time being, I'm very caught up in creating a thirty to sixty foot scroll that covers all the text of Revelation with pictorial insertions that will help those who are more graphic in their ability to learn so that Revelation can become less scary to more people. I plan to have the entire scroll scanned digitally and put onto a thumb drive for those who want to print it out or just view it on their computer. It will even be searchable.

MM

 

[jeremiah1five]

You can kick against what Peter said all you want! That only hints at the idea of YOU thinking that you're some sort of greater authority than Peter and the counsel of apostles in Jerusalem.

I never said "greater" or "superior", I said "same."

If you know anything about authority, you'd agree I am right. But you don't and this leads me to believe you've never been discipled in obedience nor has the Lord put a bit in your mouth to lead you this way or that way.

There are two kinds. Natural authority and spiritual authority.

Natural authority is God, Christ, man, woman. This is vertical.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Cor. 11:2–3.

Spiritual authority is God, Christ, and everyone else in the body of Christ. This is horizontal.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:27–28.

There is no difference in Peter's authority to do what the Lord called him to do and my authority to do the things God called me to do if the authority is spiritual. There are no "super Christians" but we are all equal before the Lord. In the spiritual realm in the body of Christ there is no hierarchy. Such a hierarchy which is what you believe in elevating Peter's authority over mine only leads to spiritual bondage and partiality in Christ (Christ="anointing"=spiritual) or spiritual matters.

Here is another example of authority in spiritual matters. Notice it refers to the body of CHRIST which is a spiritual entity:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:11–12.

The outcome is that in spiritual matters a woman can be an apostle ("apostolos"="sent'), a prophet (one who fore-tells and forth-tells), and evangelist ("herald/messenger"). pastor (married to the flock), and teacher (one who clarifies truth.)

If you are wise, you have just learned something. If you are a fool, you will resist the Word of God.

If you think Peter was a renegade, and therefore not having spoken the very sentiments and beliefs of those men, then PROVE IT!

Peter was a renegade, and at times a fool with his mouth. He was a cusser, spoke out of turn and inappropriate things ("let us build three tabernacles, one for Moses, one for Elijah...), and a mouth that wrote checks he couldn't cash ("let me come out of the boat and walk towards you.")

Having a heart full of cursing (ex. when he denied Jesus three times, on the boat telling Jesus he was a sinful man), was not remedied on the day of Pentecost. When a person becomes born-again some things are immediately resolved, some things are not. It depends on the wisdom of God as to what sins or sinful behavior the Lord gives the servant to overcome. It took Saul 14-17 years to come to terms about his murdering Stephen, and very serious testing took place when believers heard of the man who was preaching about a church he once sought to destroy. When we become born-again, we don't become perfect. We bring a great deal of garbage into our new lives in Christ.

Only a viper will try to stand as a higher authority than that of the apostles, calling them liars, and if you are one of those, then this will betray you for all to see!

Your attitude reminds me of Cornelius:

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
Acts 10:25.

Peter corrected him:

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Acts 10:26.

In Catholicism such attitude is given to the priests, cardinals, and popes. You must be Catholic.

And if you want to take my taking issue with Saul who changed an Old Testament prophecy and repackaged it to suit his error, that's fine with me. Either Gentiles changed Saul's words when Gentiles gathered scrolls for the Gentile bible in the fourth century to support their theology, or Saul actually "broke" Scripture, which is a sin, and quite impossible in the final analysis:

Isaiah:
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea,
Yet a remnant of them shall return:
Isaiah 10:22.

Saul:
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
Rom. 9:26–27.

Return and saved are not the same words nor the same meaning. Joseph Smith, JW's, and other false Christians do such changing of God's written Word to support their false beliefs and doctrine.

Scripture cannot be broken. It cannot be changed, altered, added to or subtracted from. If you think Saul was perfectly OK to do so, then this shows YOUR betrayal of God's Word.

It really is just that simple!
So, did Peter speak truly, or was he a liar speaking things that did not reflect what the apostles as a whole believed?

Peter, Saul, John, Apollos all speak according to their measure of faith.

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom. 12:2–3.

In other words, since faith rests on knowledge Peter spoke according to the knowledge he had, which for every born-again believer is not always the same.

Peter's accusation against the Judaizers TEMPTING GOD (putting Him to the test as to if God is evil or good), then PROVE YOUR CASE!
If you're going to try and claim that he wasn't talking about the Mosaic Law, then PROVE IT!
MM
MM

 

[jeremiah1five]

Where does God say Gentiles are nothing? You say He does, so it should be easy enough for you to show us where He does.

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

Now be a good Gentile and explain it away.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Your anti-Gentile posts show not one hint of the spirit of the Law. Not one.

The spirit of the Law IS the Law. Whether letter of the Law or spirit of the Law it is the SAME Law of Moses.

 

[jeremiah1five]

In other words the Bible can't be trusted, but you can be?

In other words the Bible can't be trusted, but you can be?

The Hebrew Scripture (Law, Psalms, Prophets) can be trusted. Any authority that claims to speak for God who doesn't say the same thing as God is a liar.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 Jn 5:9–10.

For John and the rest of the apostles and born-again Christians at the time this was written the witness God gave of His Son is found in the Hebrew Scripture. Through covenant, prophecy, history, culture, it all stems from the Hebrew people and God's dealing with this people.

 

[jeremiah1five]

 

[jeremiah1five]

What was the authority given to Peter and the other apostles (of which you are NOT one?)

You don't know my place in the body, nor do you know my call and the spiritual gifts the Lord gave me to accomplish my call, so you're not any judge to judge.
Given that "apostolos" means "sent" yes, I can say I have been "sent."

To lay the foundation of His church, with Him as the chief cornerstone. What is the foundation of the church? The doctrinal teachings and revelation by Jesus and the Holy Spirit, of His church, that are given to us in the NT.

Incorrect. Jesus Christ IS the foundation.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 3:10–11.

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Eph 2:19–20.

Which is it? Is Jesus Christ the foundation or is He delegated by Saul as a cornerstone and the apostles and prophets are the foundation?

The book is closed, the foundation laid, and anything built on a different foundation than that one will be burned up.(1 Cor 3:10-15)

Yes, the book is closed. Both Testaments. And since all this time I've been saying the same thing as God in that the Abrahamic Covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew and his seed, and that there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named or mentioned in this covenant, then all attempts by Gentiles to insert themselves in the Abrahamic Covenant, a covenant which is as closed as the "book" is closed is a lie. There are no Gentiles in any of the closed Hebrew covenants. Finally.

Notice in there that it says IF what has been build survives, the builder will suffer loss, the false teaching will be burned up but he will escape as one escaping through the flames. If a person is building on an entirely different foundation, they will not survive.

You have been preaching a non-gospel.

There are thousands of 'gospels' in Scripture. Eve having Seth is 'gospel.' Sarah having Isaac is 'gospel.' Hannah having Samuel is 'gospel.' Mary having Jesus is 'gospel.' Jesus' resurrection is 'gospel.' The promise of Jesus returning is 'gospel.' And what is 'gospel'?

Good news.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That is your anti-Gentile rant, but it is a lie. If your never bother to actually hear what they say, but cling tenaciously to this rant, it shows a spirit of hate.

Train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old, he shall not depart from it.

God giving His Law to the children of Israel exhibits God's grace to train up His children in the way they shall go. Without God's Law then how shall the children of Israel know what God expects from them?
Any father that does not train their child is cruel and is guilty of child abuse. It is wrong to not train (teach) their children about the world and send them out into the world to fend for themselves. But a child trained is a child prepared and as a Good Father God always prepares His people. This is grace. This is "charis."