A God who is unable to to get what He desires to get, is nothing but impotent and no God at all.

[Manfred]

An Omnipotent God cannot, not achieve/get what He desires.
God is not limited by the human will, and in scripture there is no indication that God limits Himself because of the human will and therefore limits His own desires.

If God is limited in what He can do, to achieve His end goal, then He is stripped of His Omnipotence.
I am not talking about, not being able to lie, or create a rock that cannot be lifted etc. I am talking about God limiting Himself and submitting to the human will.

The context of 1 Tim 2 cannot be that God submits to the human will, but rather as verse 1 and 2 shows, that the desire of God applies not to every individual ever born, but rather all people groups and ranks within societies.
And indeed, people from all groups and ranks are saved as God desires, thereby not negating His omnipotence.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

 

[Soyeong]

An Omnipotent God cannot, not achieve/get what He desires.
God is not limited by the human will, and in scripture there is no indication that God limits Himself because of the human will and therefore limits His own desires.

If God is limited in what He can do, to achieve His end goal, then He is stripped of His Omnipotence.
I am not talking about, not being able to lie, or create a rock that cannot be lifted etc. I am talking about God limiting Himself and submitting to the human will.

The context of 1 Tim 2 cannot be that God submits to the human will, but rather as verse 1 and 2 shows, that the desire of God applies not to every individual ever born, but rather all people groups and ranks within societies.
And indeed, people from all groups and ranks are saved as God desires, thereby not negating His omnipotence.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

What if God desires two mutually exclusive things and has the power to bring either about, but at the cost of not having the other, so God chooses to not have one thing that He desires even though it is within His power to have it because He desires something else more? For example, God could desire us to have free will while also desiring us to experience doing His will, but having free will means that we would have the freedom to choose to do our own will instead of His will, so giving us free will means that some people will freely choose not to be saved or come to knowledge of the truth in spirit of God desiring that all will be saved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

An Omnipotent God cannot, not achieve/get what He desires.
God is not limited by the human will, and in scripture there is no indication that God limits Himself because of the human will and therefore limits His own desires.

If God is limited in what He can do, to achieve His end goal, then He is stripped of His Omnipotence.
I am not talking about, not being able to lie, or create a rock that cannot be lifted etc. I am talking about God limiting Himself and submitting to the human will.

The context of 1 Tim 2 cannot be that God submits to the human will, but rather as verse 1 and 2 shows, that the desire of God applies not to every individual ever born, but rather all people groups and ranks within societies.
And indeed, people from all groups and ranks are saved as God desires, thereby not negating His omnipotence.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Word games.

 

[Manfred]

What if God desires two mutually exclusive things and has the power to bring either about, but at the cost of not having the other, so God chooses to not have one thing that He desires even though it is within His power to have it because He desires something else more?

Could you qualify this with scripture perhaps?

For example, God could desire us to have free will while also desiring us to experience doing His will, but having free will means that we would have the freedom to choose to do our own will instead of His will, so giving us free will means that some people will freely choose not to be saved or come to knowledge of the truth in spirit of God desiring that all will be saved.

Again can you back this up with scripture?

Man in his fallen state (the natural man) has a free will. We can do as we please. We are spiritually ignorant, and do not search for God. Our wills are inclined to self and self glorification.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Tell me, do you give God 100% of the glory for your salvation, or did you play some small part in making it happen? Do you have even a little bit to boast about. Your choice was a good choice no?
1Co 1:28 - 29 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

 

[Manfred]

Word games.

Nope

 

[Soyeong]

An Omnipotent God cannot, not achieve/get what He desires.
God is not limited by the human will, and in scripture there is no indication that God limits Himself because of the human will and therefore limits His own desires.

If God is limited in what He can do, to achieve His end goal, then He is stripped of His Omnipotence.
I am not talking about, not being able to lie, or create a rock that cannot be lifted etc. I am talking about God limiting Himself and submitting to the human will.

Can you support this with Scripture?

Could you qualify this with scripture perhaps?

Again can you back this up with scripture?

Man in his fallen state (the natural man) has a free will. We can do as we please. We are spiritually ignorant, and do not search for God. Our wills are inclined to self and self glorification.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Your position assumes God have no possible motivation for not getting what he desires, which means that everything that happens is what God desires, and that everyone will be saved, and I don't see a good reason to think that any of those things is true. I don't need to give an example from Scripture of God not getting what He desires, just need to show that it is possible, if everything that happens is what God desires, then that would mean that God desires all of the worst things that has happened, and there are verses that make it clear that there are requirements for salvation.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! It is clear that God desires us to choose obedience, life, and a blessing, but it is clear that God also gives us the freedom to choose disobedience, death, and a curse instead.

Tell me, do you give God 100% of the glory for your salvation, or did you play some small part in making it happen? Do you have even a little bit to boast about. Your choice was a good choice no?
1Co 1:28 - 29 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

The fact that 100% of the glory for our salvation goes to God does not mean that it does not require 100% of our participation. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grad to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we need to have done those works first in order to result in earning our salvation lest anyone should boast, and it is not the case that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation, and our salvation requiring us to participate in this training through faith does not give anything to boast in ourselves about. I don't see a good reason to think that anyone who refuses to participate in being trained to do those works is being saved from not doing those works.

 

[atpollard]

An Omnipotent God cannot, not achieve/get what He desires.

Can you support this with Scripture?

I can, but it is not necessary to do so. It is inherent within the definition of OMNIPOTENT (Omnipotent MEANS that there is nothing that God cannot do - as long as the thing or action is not self-contradictory, like "a four-sided triangle").

 

[atpollard]

I am talking about God limiting Himself and submitting to the human will.

Can you support this with Scripture?

I can support this with Scripture as well, but it is, again, not needed ... the alternative violates the Law of First Cause [God being controlled by something external to Himself creates TWO "uncaused causes" ... two gods ... Dualism.] Therefore, God's choice cannot be driven by Human choice - it must originate with God.

 

[Soyeong]

I can, but it is not necessary to do so. It is inherent within the definition of OMNIPOTENT (Omnipotent MEANS that there is nothing that God cannot do - as long as the thing or action is not self-contradictory, like "a four-sided triangle").

For example, it is possible for God to desire two mutually exclusive things, so it would be self-contradictory to get both of those things, therefore therefore God being omnipotent does not necessitate that God gets what He desires.

I can support this with Scripture as well, but it is, again, not needed ... the alternative violates the Law of First Cause [God being controlled by something external to Himself creates TWO "uncaused causes" ... two gods ... Dualism.] Therefore, God's choice cannot be driven by Human choice - it must originate with God.

God giving us free will is giving us the freedom to not do His will.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God giving us free will is giving us the freedom to not do His will.

That's the explanation, don'cha know!!!

 

[atpollard]

For example, it is possible for God to desire two mutually exclusive things, so it would be self-contradictory to get both of those things, therefore therefore God being omnipotent does not necessitate that God gets what He desires.


God giving us free will is giving us the freedom to not do His will.

That's the explanation, don'cha know!!!

FLUSH ... that was the sound of God's SOVEREIGNTY and CONTROL being flushed down the toilet to solve "the problem of evil". We can certainly edit down the Bible now that y'all have solved the issue by demonstrating so much scripture to be false.

 

[atpollard]

So what makes God different from Zeus?

Zeus desires people to do things, but cannot make anyone do anything, either.

 

[Soyeong]

So what makes God different from Zeus?

Zeus desires people to do things, but cannot make anyone do anything, either.

God and Zeus have many different attributes, if they have one or more things in common, then that does not mean that there is no difference.

 

[Arial]

What if God desires two mutually exclusive things and has the power to bring either about, but at the cost of not having the other, so God chooses to not have one thing that He desires even though it is within His power to have it because He desires something else more? For example, God could desire us to have free will while also desiring us to experience doing His will, but having free will means that we would have the freedom to choose to do our own will instead of His will, so giving us free will means that some people will freely choose not to be saved or come to knowledge of the truth in spirit of God desiring that all will be saved.

When you say this you destroy your own argument. First by presenting a God neither sovereign or omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Second by presuming something that cannot exist in the economy of God. You have a God divided against Himself and one who is or chooses to be subject the will of those He created.

God in fact gave us a free will at creation, in the sense that mankind could make choices and a definitive choice was set before them by Him, but free of all coercion by Him. Even then, it was subject to His will is as seen by the devastation caused by not trusting Him. But in Adam we all became sinners---not just by the sins we do, but a sinful creature who sins by nature and willfully. It is God who says we cannot come to Him in this sinful condition. He is holy. That choice is no longer set before us. We must be redeemed by and in Christ first.

 

[Soyeong]

When you say this you destroy your own argument. First by presenting a God neither sovereign or omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Second by presuming something that cannot exist in the economy of God. You have a God divided against Himself and one who is or chooses to be subject the will of those He created.

God in fact gave us a free will at creation, in the sense that mankind could make choices and a definitive choice was set before them by Him, but free of all coercion by Him. Even then, it was subject to His will is as seen by the devastation caused by not trusting Him. But in Adam we all became sinners---not just by the sins we do, but a sinful creature who sins by nature and willfully. It is God who says we cannot come to Him in this sinful condition. He is holy. That choice is no longer set before us. We must be redeemed by and in Christ first.

The possibility that God could desire two mutually exclusive things is not denying either God's sovereignty or His omnipotence. It is not dividing God against Himself and being able to do self-contradictory things is not a property of omnipotence.

 

[Arial]

The possibility that God could desire two mutually exclusive things is not denying either God's sovereignty or His omnipotence. It is not dividing God against Himself and being able to do self-contradictory things is not a property of omnipotence.

How is desiring one thing but setting the outcome up in a way that guarantees this desire would not be achieved not self contradictory?

You are presenting a case that involves His secret will and His revealed will without understanding what either means. Maybe not even knowing of them, that I cannot say. Deut 29:29 which is directly related to the renewal of the covenant in Moab and the words that Moses spoke and follows what he said, (which if you are interested you may read yourself, paying close attention to all he says, but I will not post here for the sake of brevity he says "The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of the law. So we know the God does not tell us everything about Himself or what He is doing.

The secret things of the Lord are many but one aspect is His will that pertains not to decrees but His character. His character does not "delight in the death of the wicked", even though He puts the wicked to death. And to His general mercy, "He causes it to rain on the righteous and the unrighteous." What you have is His secret will of character conflated with all aspects of His being including His decrees, making a contradiction. He cannot both decree that those He gives Jesus (which Jesus clearly states is the case many times directly and also many times by inferrance) and at the same time decree that man's free will of choice is what determines who belongs to Christ.

And if you would please, address the following rather than leave it hanging there unaddressed.

God in fact gave us a free will at creation, in the sense that mankind could make choices and a definitive choice was set before them by Him, but free of all coercion by Him. Even then, it was subject to His will is as seen by the devastation caused by not trusting Him. But in Adam we all became sinners---not just by the sins we do, but a sinful creature who sins by nature and willfully. It is God who says we cannot come to Him in this sinful condition. He is holy. That choice is no longer set before us. We must be redeemed by and in Christ first.

It is pertinent to the discussion.

 

[Manfred]

Can you support this with Scripture?

I did. You must have skimmed over the scriptures I posted in support of what I said. See below

Man in his fallen state (the natural man) has a free will. We can do as we please. We are spiritually ignorant, and do not search for God. Our wills are inclined to self and self glorification.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

Your position assumes God have no possible motivation for not getting what he desires, which means that everything that happens is what God desires, and that everyone will be saved, and I don't see a good reason to think that any of those things is true.

Nowhere do I assume this.

Again, you probably skipped over what I wrote and you are now trying to force your premise onto me.
See what I wrote about the context of 1Tim 2

"The context of 1 Tim 2 cannot be that God submits to the human will, but rather as verse 1 and 2 shows, that the desire of God applies not to every individual ever born, but rather all people groups and ranks within societies.
And indeed, people from all groups and ranks are saved as God desires, thereby not negating His omnipotence.

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,
1Ti 2:2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way.
1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1Ti 2:7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth."

I don't need to give an example from Scripture of God not getting what He desires, just need to show that it is possible, if everything that happens is what God desires, then that would mean that God desires all of the worst things that has happened, and there are verses that make it clear that there are requirements for salvation.

So you go beyond scripture and it is not your baseline.
I have already demonstrated the logical impossibility of an Omnipotent being who is immutable not having His desires met.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! It is clear that God desires us to choose obedience, life, and a blessing, but it is clear that God also gives us the freedom to choose disobedience, death, and a curse instead.

To whom is that directed? Read that to an atheist and see what response you get!
Read it to a Christian who has the Spirit of God and see what response you get.

The fact that 100% of the glory for our salvation goes to God does not mean that it does not require 100% of our participation.

God does not require you to do anything in order to save you.
That is a works based theology.

When He reveals Himself we respond in obedience to His will not our own.
If you are obedient to your own will then you deserve the glory.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grad to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we need to have done those works first in order to result in earning our salvation lest anyone should boast, and it is not the case that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is itself part of the content of His gift of salvation, and our salvation requiring us to participate in this training through faith does not give anything to boast in ourselves about. I don't see a good reason to think that anyone who refuses to participate in being trained to do those works is being saved from not doing those works.

Post salvation, and not pre-salvation.
Obedience to God and His will gives Him the glory.

Jesus taught us how to pray. It is "Your will be done" and not "my/our will/s be done"

One thing I have noticed very clearly about those who cling to freedom of the will, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to die to self and give God the glory in all circumstances.
They want to get credit for their "participation" They will to participate and then have something to boast about.

 

[TibiasDad]

God is not limited by the human will, and in scripture there is no indication that God limits Himself because of the human will and therefore limits His own desires.

If by “no indication” you mean no explicit “I, God, submit my will to the will of man” statement, then you are correct, but then again, there is “no indication” that “I, God, have foreordained to save a certain number of people and passed over the rest”!

You hold a standard of proof that your own theology can not stand against!

Doug

 

[Reformedguy]

If by “no indication” you mean no explicit “I, God, submit my will to the will of man” statement, then you are correct, but then again, there is “no indication” that “I, God, have foreordained to save a certain number of people and passed over the rest”!

You hold a standard of proof that your own theology can not stand against!

Doug

No purpose of God can be thwarted. So is it purpose to save all? I would say no.

 

[TibiasDad]

No purpose of God can be thwarted. So is it purpose to save all? I would say no.

It is his purpose that all who believe will be saved! To this, we both say yes.

Doug