Without an Excuse 😶

[David1701]

So they are of the elect. Now since "law/conscience" depends on human works then election is conditional (synergistic), at least in this sense.

What are you talking about?

Election is not based on anything that man does.

 

[Synergy]

They were all planted in person. They were often instructed through circular letters---written. They weren't based only on the Greek OT but the Greek OT did support what they were saying. But you bring up a good point. And one that I have addressed, though not on this forum, and I am sure most if not all of those who are Reformed in their theology, agree with and most likely has been stated. I first saw it in the third book I read on the subject "Doctrines That Divide" by Erin Lutzer. It astonished me that I had never been told it before, and given no reason to see it, in the A'ist churches I attended for the first 23 years.

If those circular letters were written by direct Disciples of Jesus, then they should be made part of the NT cannon. After all, we're talking about the first two decades after the Crucifixion. Do you know what letters were being circulated?

The first half of his book deals with the doctrines of the church other than the controversy over total depravity etc. And from it I garnered an astonishing truth and a very important one, and one that is seldom considered.

Christ's church has boundaries and the parameters of those boundaries are found within the covers of our Bible, most specifically in the NT. It was the apostles that laid this foundation and that we have today, and that they had then though not in a bound book form as we do. And that foundation is the doctrines, or teachings of His church. Nothing more. Nothing less. We do not add to it, or take away from it. It is as though a wall were built around His church, with gates, as was the case with Jerusalem. To keep safe, to keep out, and to keep in.

That is why I look around and weep and pray as Nehemiah did. "Our walls are broken down, and our gates are burned with fire."

It was the Reformers who tried and did rebuild those walls and set those gates, secured our boundaries (and that was their sole aim) in the past.
It was others who came in and tore them down again, and I believe the resurgence of Reformed theology, is rebuilding them once more. We would do well to listen to them.

The most prominent and obvious aspect of Christ's Church is its Worship Services. Where were those Worship Services concisely detailed? And again, if those designs were documented by direct Disciples of Jesus, then shouldn't they be made part of the NT cannon?

 

[Arial]

If those circular letters were written by direct Disciples of Jesus, then they should be made part of the NT cannon. After all, we're talking about the first two decades after the Crucifixion. Do you know what letters were being circulated?

The letters---epistles----are the ones we have in our NT. No doubt there were others that were lost. The thing to remember is that all that God intended to be in His word, is in there.

The most prominent and obvious aspect of Christ's Church is its Worship Services. Where were those Worship Services concisely detailed? And again, if those designs were documented by direct Disciples of Jesus, then shouldn't they be made part of the NT cannon?

I do not know what it is you are driving at or suggesting. But to say the worship services are the most prominent aspect of Christ's church is not true. There is no indication that in the NT church they had what we call worship services. We have the structure and duties of the church given to Timothy and Titus. But what was and is of prime importance is the teaching. Everything is in the NT canon---the Protestant one---that we need.

 

[makesends]

Are those people of the elect? If so then election depends on human works and is not monergistic.

That's some really bad logic. If people obey because they are of the elect, their obedience is not therefore what produced their election.

 

[Synergy]

The letters---epistles----are the ones we have in our NT. No doubt there were others that were lost. The thing to remember is that all that God intended to be in His word, is in there.

I do not know what it is you are driving at or suggesting. But to say the worship services are the most prominent aspect of Christ's church is not true. There is no indication that in the NT church they had what we call worship services. We have the structure and duties of the church given to Timothy and Titus. But what was and is of prime importance is the teaching. Everything is in the NT canon---the Protestant one---that we need.

I can see where chaos would ensue if the newly planted Churches were not given any pattern or design as to how to conduct their worship services, if that was the case.

It would be like bringing orchestra players together and not giving them any music script.

 

[Mr GLee]

Well Peanut Gallery suggest that every man receives God's light, and further suggest that fallen man based on this received light from God can make a "decision" to be saved or not. This comes from Pelagius, Finney, etc.., Synergists theologies. This ideology ignores what happen in the Fall, what Adam lost in the Garden; relationship and right standing with God; the curse bestowed because of the One Man's Sin; and the condemnation & punishment because of sin. They gravely devoid the gravity of sin and place not sinners, but good men in a vacuum where sin is not present. Where Prevenient Grace is not effectual in saving anyone, but is needed (light), to save men/women. But there is so many questions that pose a huge problem for them.​

God makes the decision whether or not he will give us a new born again spirit that he works in us. .

He is of one mind and always does whatever his soul desires .No man can turn Him. He performs that which he appoints to us He makes our hearts soft (Job 23)

Many hear the gospel light but few are chosen by the Holy Father.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus is explaining to unbelieving Jews who He is and what He is doing by using an analogy of the shepherd and his sheep, and that relationship. In John 10:1-6 He says it one way and they could not understand Him so He said it another way in verses 7-18. He is the door (verse 7) and if anyone enters that door, they will be saved. All others beside Him are thieves and robbers seeking to kill and destroy. (vv8-9). But Jesus is the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep, compared to the hired hand, not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, runs away, leaving the sheep to the wolves who snatches and scatters them. Jesus the good shepherd is willing to die to save the sheep. (vv10-13)

Strangers to the gospel could never enter. Born again sheep his voice

John 10 : 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Well Peanut Gallery suggest that every man receives God's light, and further suggest that fallen man based on this received light from God can make a "decision" to be saved or not. ...​

I've gone through all my posts in this thread; I haven't found a post where I suggested that a fallen man can make a decision to be saved.

All men are given light; but not all believe....

Christ does not owe anyone; that being said:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ...

Neither I, the prodigal son, nor the publican made a decision to be saved.

 

[PeanutGallery]

The one I most use now, but have not always, and did not begin my study of Reformed theology with, is the Reformation Study Bible. I have both the ESV and the NKJ but both have the same verse notes, book prefaces, and topic notes. In addition it has a lot of other information. Some of the Confessions, a history of Bible interpretation, a brief outline of the Reformation and Reformation era preaching, and much more. A whole wealth of information at your fingertips from theologians who can be trusted. Note I said trusted, not automatically believed....

So if I get the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP I would better prepared to believe as you do?

 

[Ladodgers6]

God makes the decision whether or not he will give us a new born again spirit that he works in us. .

He is of one mind and always does whatever his soul desires .No man can turn Him. He performs that which he appoints to us He makes our hearts soft (Job 23)

Many hear the gospel light but few are chosen by the Holy Father.

So, there's nothing in man or man can do to merit God's favor?

 

[Mr GLee]

So, there's nothing in man or man can do to merit God's favor?

I would offer

Nothing in natural unconverted mankind ,dead in trespass and sin without God in this present word.

Better thing accompany salvation .God will not forget the good works of faith or called a labor of love we can offer our works in respect to the power of His name We have none living in bodies of death.

Hebrews 6:8-10 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

No power from dying flesh. None not little. . dead

 

[Mr GLee]

The letters---epistles----are the ones we have in our NT. No doubt there were others that were lost. The thing to remember is that all that God intended to be in His word, is in there.

I do not know what it is you are driving at or suggesting. But to say the worship services are the most prominent aspect of Christ's church is not true. There is no indication that in the NT church they had what we call worship services. We have the structure and duties of the church given to Timothy and Titus. But what was and is of prime importance is the teaching. Everything is in the NT canon---the Protestant one---that we need.

I would agree we worship in Him by His Spirit that works in us according to his law of truth. That can be performed anywhere even in a closet. Whenever we hear his voice and harden not our hearts.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Our Father which sees in secret shall reward his children openly.

Ceremonial laws are "shadows" of the "perfect".

The gathering together is in regard a ceremonial signs to the unbelieving word in a hope they might be moved to open the book of prophecy and see for oneself what the Holy Spirit is teaching. There is no sign we could perform that proves inwardly a person has been born from above. Simply some worship shadows .

If there was a sign reading ones bible should be enough to convince oneself. No such thing sign gifts, none.

We walk by the faith of Christ, the understanding of our God.Comparing the spiritual unseen things of God to the same unseen . Faith to faith.

Some compare themselves to themselves as in I did it, it proves it

In that we we are not of the number. But are of the golden measure of faith. The unseen wil of God

2 Corinthians 10:11-13King James Version11 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.

 

[Arial]

So if I get the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP I would better prepared to believe as you do?

It makes no difference to me whether you believe as I do. If you want to base your beliefs on limited knowledge and no pursuit of it that is up to you. You asked and foolishly I thought you were sincere in the question, so I told you what Bible I use that also has the information you would need to actually intelligently come against what you reject, and to make an informed decision about what you accept blindly and reject blindly.

But you weren't sincere. You were just looking for what you thought would be a weapon you could use against all I say. The better weapon would be to actually refute what I say with at least a modicum of knowledge and intelligence. It was a childish response.

 

[Arial]

Strangers to the gospel could never enter. Born again sheep his voice

John 10 : 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Exactly.

 

[PeanutGallery]

It makes no difference to me whether you believe as I do. ...

Reading the Bible through the lenses of the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP leads one to a particular belief; yes?

 

[Mr GLee]

Reading the Bible through the lenses of the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP leads one to a particular belief; yes?

The lenses of the reformer Christ? It could agree if in agreement with the living word of God. Two walking as one.

 

[David1701]

Reading the Bible through the lenses of the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP leads one to a particular belief; yes?

No: reading the Bible prayerfully and objectively leads one to a particular belief that God is sovereign in salvation.

 

[Arial]

Reading the Bible through the lenses of the Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP leads one to a particular belief; yes?

Only if they believe it.
Wouldn't it be better to have full knowledge of what one doesn't believe, instead of just rejecting it without any knowledge? What if it is the truth and what you already believe isn't? Or is God's truth not important to you? Is THE truth not important to you? Or are you satisfied with what you have because it is pleasing to you and makes you feel safe, so that you can go blithely on without ever thinking too deeply or actually seeking the God who is? That is fine as long as one truly trusts in the person and work of Jesus for salvation. It is a little skewed imo if the majority of that trust is based on their deciding to trust Him. And greatly limits their ability to actually defend their faith---they simply don't have the tools to do so. As we see again and again on the forums. But nevertheless, God saves who He will in spite of that, for it is belief in the right person, Jesus, and what He did, that reconciles one to God and Him to them.

Now I do not say that as though I were saying Reformed theology is that truth. I happen to think what is in it is consistent with the Bible and most important with God who tells us in no uncertain terms from Gen 1:1 on who He is, this God we are to worship. Any other god, one of my own design, would be idolatry to me. And I have stood on both sides of the isle, 23 years on the side you stand on, and on the side where I now stand since 2005. And I have to say, and I do not take credit for this, for I did not make me, that long before I ever heard the shepherd's voice and followed Him, I desperately wanted to know THE TRUTH. It seemed mandatory to me in my philosophical way of thinking that there had to be such a thing. And I knew it when "I found" it. And I knew it was in the Bible. That the truth is God and the Son Jesus.

For a long time. 23 years, I was not hearing and being taught deeper truths but only the surface of things, and much of it I could not reconcile with what I read in the Bible. My hunger to know God, to hear about God, not even knowing fully what I meant we don't know what we don't know, was a deep cry within me, as deep calling to deep. And that was when I was first introduced to Reformed theology, something completely foreign to me, but I recognized instantly that it was about God, who He is, and Jesus His Son, and the rest is history.

Would that be your experience if you studied Reformed theology? I have no way of knowing that, I only know we only have what God gives us. He is the only One who has it to give. My point is that I desire truth, whether I like that truth or not. And unless that is a person's desire they will not listen to or hear anything that they do not already believe and are satisfied with.

 

[PeanutGallery]

No: reading the Bible prayerfully and objectively leads one to a particular belief that God is sovereign in salvation.

How can one be objective while reading through the lens of Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP?

 

[Arial]

How can one be objective while reading through the lens of Reformation Study Bible, the Confessions of Faith, and TULIP?

That would be your problem, not mine. I didn't have a bit of trouble with it. But hey, how can one be objective if they read everything in the Bible through the lens of the A'ist?

But there is nothing like missing the point of an entire point and arguing a strawman instead. If one is objectively looking for objective truth because truth is what they want, no matter what they may feel about it, well, all I can say is, "Seek and you will find." If you are objectively looking for it, you will objectively be given it. It already exists. It is in His word.

I never suggested that you read through the lens of the Reformation Study Bible. I said that is one place you will find out what it is they believe and teach. And I only did that because you asked. You shouldn't ask questions if you are not really with integrity asking because you want the information you asked for. I also told you that they give both sides of the story, let the reader decide.

You know, there is something disingenuous and unkind about a person who poses a question to a sister/brother in Christ, filling them with encouragement and the hope that they are helping and being helpful, as though the person is truly interested, and then dashing it all to the ground by revealing their true and malicious motives. You need to think about that.