Will we know others in heaven as we knew them on earth? Isaiah 65:17

[fastfredy0]

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind.

Given the verse above do you belief either:
1) We will not know, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven for "former things will not be remember or come to mind"

or

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).
Yes, I know of the transfiguration and Peter and Paul meet Moses and Elijah .... but their knowledge of these two people could not originate from earthly experience
and besides, Peter and Paul were not in the "new heaven".


If you select #1 then would it not also stand to reason we would not know anything about ourselves?

 

[CrowCross]

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind.

Given the verse above do you belief either:
1) We will not know, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven for "former things will not be remember or come to mind"

or

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).
Yes, I know of the transfiguration and Peter and Paul meet Moses and Elijah .... but their knowledge of these two people could not originate from earthly experience
and besides, Peter and Paul were not in the "new heaven".


If you select #1 then would it not also stand to reason we would not know anything about ourselves?

Did you read the rest of the verse?

Where and when is this verse speaking of? Right now I'm leaning towards the 1000 year reign of Christ. I'm not dogmatic on it....yet.

 

[fastfredy0]

Right now I'm leaning towards the 1000 year reign of Christ. I'm not dogmatic on it....yet.

maybe ... I wouldn't think the old earth would pass away and there would be a new earth during that 1000 reign, but that being said there are so many eschatological interpretations that I gave up long ago trying to figure which (if any) is accurate.

 

[CrowCross]

maybe ... I wouldn't think the old earth would pass away and there would be a new earth during that 1000 reign, but that being said there are so many eschatological interpretations that I gave up long ago trying to figure which (if any) is accurate.

I think the new heaven and new earth happens after the 1000 year reign.

The 1000 year reign is mentioned in Rev 20. The new heaven and a new earth are mentioned in Revelation 21.

Though I don't understand the "death" of people in the new earth as I've never really dove into it..

Isaiah 65: 20No longer will a nursing infant live but a few days,
or an old man fail to live out his years.
For the youth will die at a hundred years,
and he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

 

[fastfredy0]

I think the new heaven and new earth happens after the 1000 year reign.

Me too.
I figure after the 1000 year reign God destroys the old earth creates a new heaven and earth in which the elect live (no non-elect). So, I figure this is where we will spend eternity and Isaiah 65:17 refers to that time frame. (again, the "end times of Revelation" is an unsolvable puzzle to me till you get to the new heaven and earth).

 

[Arial]

I figure after the 1000 year reign God destroys the old earth creates a new heaven and earth in which the elect live (no non-elect).

What happens to the people that are on the earth at the end of the thousand years when he destroys the earth. Is there another rapture prior to this event also that God failed to mention?

 

[fastfredy0]

What happens to the people that are on the earth at the end of the thousand years when he destroys the earth. Is there another rapture prior to this event also that God failed to mention?

Well, God never "fails" so there is no event He "failed to mention", but to address your question ...

the "end times of Revelation" is an unsolvable puzzle to me

Aside: some say there is no 1000 year reign (amillennialists) ... I think R.C. Sproul was of that contention.

 

[Arial]

Well, God never "fails" so there is no event He "failed to mention",

That of course was a bit of sarcasm since no second rapture is mentioned. But then again neither is a definite seven years of tribulation or a rapture of the saints before what is not mentioned. There is much conjecture that it is mentioned, but interpretive conjecture is just conjecture.

I would say that end times prophecy is a puzzle to you because probably it has been almost exclusively presented by the church as a puzzle to solve. Some would say it is more like a picture book and I tend to agree for the most part. No one and no particular view has it all right, and there are probably some elements of truth in all the views. So to me, it is the message of comfort and assurance that even in what looks like utter chaos and hopelessness to us (and feels that way too) God is in control. He preserves his people, and the promise we see is Is 11 and Rev 21 are certain.

I have turned from a literal interpretation of the thousand years to an amillennial view that it is that it refers to the time period between the two advents of Christ and that is also the time of tribulation.

 

[fastfredy0]

That of course was a bit of sarcasm

Yeah, but I thought I'd turn the tables on you and pretend it was a literal statement. *giggle*

since no second rapture is mentioned. But then again neither is a definite seven years of tribulation or a rapture of the saints before what is not mentioned. There is much conjecture that it is mentioned, but interpretive conjecture is just conjecture.

Agreed. I gave up on eschatology save maybe for a few basics.

I would say that end times prophecy is a puzzle to you because probably it has been almost exclusively presented by the church as a puzzle to solve.

That's a possibility. We've all been indoctrinated to a degree as to which puzzle fits. It is also possible that God doesn't want us to know many details.

Some would say it is more like a picture book and I tend to agree for the most part. No one and no particular view has it all right, and there are probably some elements of truth in all the views. So to me, it is the message of comfort and assurance that even in what looks like utter chaos and hopelessness to us (and feels that way too) God is in control. He preserves his people, and the promise we see is Is 11 and Rev 21 are certain.

I like that summary. Rev 21 seems more definitive.

I have turned from a literal interpretation of the thousand years to an amillennial view that it is that it refers to the time period between the two advents of Christ and that is also the time of tribulation.

I like the "Left Behind" view point. Not because I think it necessarily is closest to the truth, but because it's a captivating story.


You didn't give your opinion on the thread's subject verse Isaiah 65:17.

 

[CrowCross]

What happens to the people that are on the earth at the end of the thousand years when he destroys the earth. Is there another rapture prior to this event also that God failed to mention?

It appears the bible is silent.

Would that be a problem?

 

[Mr GLee]

Isaiah 65:17 “Behold, I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind.

Given the verse above do you belief either:
1) We will not know, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven for "former things will not be remember or come to mind"

or

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).
Yes, I know of the transfiguration and Peter and Paul meet Moses and Elijah .... but their knowledge of these two people could not originate from earthly experience
and besides, Peter and Paul were not in the "new heaven".


If you select #1 then would it not also stand to reason we would not know anything about ourselves?

I would offer Number one.

Living in a body of death suffering the pangs of death never to rise to new life. Hearing loss, vision, eating, smelling loss of memory. Univeral Alzheimer's a terrible suffering. even losing family suffering loneliness.

In that way now is the time we can offer our good works. Empowered by Christ we can please the father and offer love towards one another.

We call no man one earth Holy Father in that way. One is our adopting Abaa in heaven.


Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Arial]

That's a possibility. We've all been indoctrinated to a degree as to which puzzle fits. It is also possible that God doesn't want us to know many details.

It is possible to get out of the puzzle mode that most of us began and continued our Christian life with. I have not managed it completely yet. It is very difficult and maybe it can never be done completely because we are in a post modern era, separated from its original audience by thousands of years.

What helps, I believe, is to remember that it is a letter, written to specific churches, and at a specific time in history, and for a specific purpose. And to not lose sight of that when we come to the visions. Also to remember that the visions are visions that are revealing things invisible through symbols, representatives (often numbers), pictorial language, figures of speech. And then we have to ask ourselves why Jesus was doing this through John to the original recipients of the letter. What purpose was it serving and how and why is it serving the same purpose to us. For example, it would serve no purpose to the recipients to be looking at world events in order to calculate the closeness of Christ's return, and taking those world events into the Bible to solve the puzzle of what the signs and symbols and numbers represent.

And I will go no farther than that off topic. I apologize for ever doing it and have only my failure to read the OP first before responding to a particular post. I see that the OP went off topic with the very first or second post, and became instead, as is that poster's MO. became a discussion that belongs in the End Times board.

 

[Arial]

You didn't give your opinion on the thread's subject verse Isaiah 65:17.

Sorry. My bad. I entered the thread responding to a post before reading the OP.

I tend towards #2. We will know our loved ones and and come to know our redeemed descendants down through history. There is no explicit scripture that says that. So I go on God's view and purpose and design of family that is shown in the scriptures.

But I don't think Is 65:17 is saying that we won't remember, but that God won't. Verse 16:so that he who blesses himself in the land shall bless himself by the God of truth, and he who takes an oath in the land shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten and are hidden from my eyes.

And of course to say that God won't remember is anthropomorphic language that is understood by "come into mind." Utterly forgiven iow, as though it never happened.

 

[fastfredy0]

And of course to say that God won't remember is anthropomorphic language that is understood by "come into mind."

That struck me as a possibility the other day also.

 

[makesends]

It appears the bible is silent.

Would that be a problem?

While it's true that arguing from silence is fallacious, silence, when one would expect statements consistent with the thesis, can be indicative. Just, not proof.

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
And of course to say that God won't remember is anthropomorphic language that is understood by "come into mind."

That struck me as a possibility the other day also.

If I'm remembering right from the old concordances and commentaries, the term meant "remember [a deed or sin] against someone". The sin (and penalty) removed from them and their vicinity, and so no longer relevant to them. It is not a statement that God now forgot that they had ever done the deed or sin, but that it is no longer relevant to their status with God.

 

[CrowCross]

While it's true that arguing from silence is fallacious, silence, when one would expect statements consistent with the thesis, can be indicative. Just, not proof.

I can speculate.

 

[Mr GLee]

It is possible to get out of the puzzle mode that most of us began and continued our Christian life with. I have not managed it completely yet. It is very difficult and maybe it can never be done completely because we are in a post modern era, separated from its original audience by thousands of years.

I would offer.

Yes believers continue to learn.

If Christ in with us us began the good teaching work in us he will finish (Philippians 1:6)

Warning us of the anti-Christ as false teaching authority, false prohecy false apostles that teach a man must teach man.

Being part of the original promised demonstration 2000 years ago adds nothing to sola scriptura .The Armor of God

It can be seen I believe in a parable in Luke 16 "No man can serve two good teaching masters"

Impossible 'to serve the wisdom of the flesh oral traditons of dying mankind. . and sola scripture Moses and the prophets also called the law and prophets

Three times to denote the end . sola scriptura all things written in the Law (Moses) and the testimony the prophets

Luke 16:29-31Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Even when they did see. God gave no confirmation (faith) they remained in unbelief (no faith)

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, "(of Christ as it is written ) not by sight:

 

[atpollard]

2) We will know people from our experience on earth, for example, our mother, father, siblings in heaven. Please give verses to substantiate this opinion (no parables).

[Rev 6:9-11 NASB20] 9 When [the Lamb] broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?" 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told that they were to rest for a little while longer, until [the number of] their fellow servants and their brothers [and sisters] who were to be killed even as they [had been,] was completed also.
[they remembered]

[Rev 7:13-17 NASB20] 13 Then one of the elders responded, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" 14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 "For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 "They will no longer hunger nor thirst, nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any scorching heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
[tears imply they remembered]

[Rev 21:1-4 NASB20] 1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer [any] sea. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among the people, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be [any] death; there will no longer be [any] mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
[tears imply they remembered]

[1Co 13:8-13 NASB20] 8 Love never fails; but if [there are gifts of] prophecy, they will be done away with; if [there are] tongues, they will cease; if [there is] knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, [and] love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
[talking about perfect relation and love … love remembers people]

 

[fastfredy0]

[Rev 6:9-11 NASB20]

applicable verse IMO ... seems they have some memory, at least for a while

and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."
[tears imply they remembered]

....maybe ... and maybe God will wipe the tears away by taking away their memories

4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be [any] death; there will no longer be [any] mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
[tears imply they remembered]

Seems to say there will be no more tears which supports the idea that their memories of past events might be erased

[1Co 13:8-13 NASB20] 8 Love never fails; but if [there are gifts of] prophecy, they will be done away with; if [there are] tongues, they will cease; if [there is] knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known. 13 But now faith, hope, [and] love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
[talking about perfect relation and love … love remembers people]

Remembrance of people can be the cause of love, but one can have his memories taken away and replaced with new thoughts that could be the cause of love.

[Rev 6:9-11 NASB20] 9 When [the Lamb] broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been killed because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who live on the earth?"

Again, I think this is a strong case for remembering our past. If I was play devil's advocate (not sure you're allowed to do that on a Christian site ... might be contrary to some TofS rule) I might say that it would be possible to erase a person's memories at later time. I grant that is a stretch.

Good answer. Thx

Aside: I haven't seen you for a while.