9 teachings from Jesus

[atpollard]

Wow whoever moved this does not know God or Jesus=sad for you.

... but they do know the JW Christology falls OUTSIDE of Christian orthodoxy, deep into Christian heresy (which qualifies a discussion on that P.O.V. for this FORUM: "Cults, Heresy & Heretics").

 

[atpollard]

Only the little flock=144,000 are anointed

I agree.
Unfortunately, I believe you have misunderstood the symbolism of the "little flock" with your over literal approach to a symbolic vision (typical of apocalyptic literature as a genre).

First let us establish the need for non-literal interpretation of apocalyptic visions by examining a famous vision of Daniel. Daniel saw a man with a head made of gold and feet made of iron and clay (you can find the full description in Daniel 2). Should we take that vision as 100% LITERAL and still be waiting for this man with a gold head and clay feet to appear? Perhaps he will appear in the New Temple during the Literal 1000 year kingdom when burnt offerings are again made? Of course, Daniel presents an interpretation of that particular vision, so treating it as LITERAL would make Daniel a liar and a false prophet needing to be stoned ... which is problematic since Jesus quoted Daniel by claiming to be the Son of Man. I guess, we have to accept that the vision by Daniel of a man with a gold head and clay feet was NOT LITERAL, but was a SYMBOLIC vision of a very real present and future [from when Daniel made it] truth.

Now that we know HOW to understand apocalyptic visions, lets go to the wild visions of John. Revelation 7 has 4 angels at the 4 corners of the earth holding back ...

Rev 7:3 [ESV] saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

• Quick question, does the earth have LITERAL corners?
• If not, then this MUST also be a SYMBOLIC vision, like Daniel's gold headed and clay feet.

So WHO was sealed? Who are these "servants of our God"?

Rev 7:4 [ESV] And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Since we know that it MUST be symbolic, what can 144,000 possibly be symbolic of?
How about 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10?
Does that seem strange, well let's look closer at it:

• 12 is the number that represents the people of God (go search that number back through scripture).
• So, 12 x 12 would be ALL the people of God ... Jews and Gentiles. As in:
  • John 10:16 [ESV] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
  • Romans 2:28-29 [ESV] For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
  • Romans 9:22-24 [ESV] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
• 10 is the number that represents "many", so 10 x 10 would be "many x many" and 10 x 10 x 10 (1000) would be "many x many x many" (practically infinite).
• Placing those together 12x12 (all of the people of God) x 1000 (practically infinite) = 144,000 (a multitude of God's people beyond counting).

That's the symbolism of 144,000.
So am I correct? Let's look just past the count of "all God's people from all God's tribes" (Rev 7:5-8) and read the very next part ...

• Rev 7:9-12 [ESV] After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."

Well son of a gun, would you look at that! Just like we predicted, John sees in the VERY NEXT VERSE. I mean a literal 144,000 Jews is NOT a "multitude beyond counting" ... it was counted ... and "from every nation ..." is not all Jews.

The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14 ...

• Rev 14:1-5 [ESV] Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

So, LITERAL or SYMBOLIC?

• They have the mark on their forehead, so they are the same as the 144,000 from Revelation 7
• Mount Zion is the Temple mountain, isn't it? So these 144,000 people will be crowded into the current Mosque of the Dome if this is literal (although the name "Mount Zion has changed location 3 times throughout history as the Temple moved around Jerusalem).
• These 144,000 are "blameless" and never told a lie ... which contradicts Romans 3:10-12 [ESV] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." and Eph 2:1-3 [ESV] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
• I think the evidence still leans heavy towards SYMBOLIC 144,000, especially given:
  • Rev 19:7-8 [ESV] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Thus the 144,000 are the "great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" ... that would be ALL CHRISTIANS, Jesus "little flock" drawn out from the greater flock of the world.

• Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
• John 10:25-30 [ESV] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

All 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 of us.

 

[Viking123]

... but they do know the JW Christology falls OUTSIDE of Christian orthodoxy, deep into Christian heresy (which qualifies a discussion on that P.O.V. for this FORUM: "Cults, Heresy & Heretics").

Those teachings from Jesus are in every translation on earth= bible study points. But when one has 0 for an answer, they throw it away as worthless in their darkness.

 

[Viking123]

I agree.
Unfortunately, I believe you have misunderstood the symbolism of the "little flock" with your over literal approach to a symbolic vision (typical of apocalyptic literature as a genre).

First let us establish the need for non-literal interpretation of apocalyptic visions by examining a famous vision of Daniel. Daniel saw a man with a head made of gold and feet made of iron and clay (you can find the full description in Daniel 2). Should we take that vision as 100% LITERAL and still be waiting for this man with a gold head and clay feet to appear? Perhaps he will appear in the New Temple during the Literal 1000 year kingdom when burnt offerings are again made? Of course, Daniel presents an interpretation of that particular vision, so treating it as LITERAL would make Daniel a liar and a false prophet needing to be stoned ... which is problematic since Jesus quoted Daniel by claiming to be the Son of Man. I guess, we have to accept that the vision by Daniel of a man with a gold head and clay feet was NOT LITERAL, but was a SYMBOLIC vision of a very real present and future [from when Daniel made it] truth.

Now that we know HOW to understand apocalyptic visions, lets go to the wild visions of John. Revelation 7 has 4 angels at the 4 corners of the earth holding back ...

Rev 7:3 [ESV] saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."

• Quick question, does the earth have LITERAL corners?
• If not, then this MUST also be a SYMBOLIC vision, like Daniel's gold headed and clay feet.

So WHO was sealed? Who are these "servants of our God"?

Rev 7:4 [ESV] And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

Since we know that it MUST be symbolic, what can 144,000 possibly be symbolic of?
How about 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10?
Does that seem strange, well let's look closer at it:

• 12 is the number that represents the people of God (go search that number back through scripture).
• So, 12 x 12 would be ALL the people of God ... Jews and Gentiles. As in:
  • John 10:16 [ESV] And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
  • Romans 2:28-29 [ESV] For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
  • Romans 9:22-24 [ESV] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
• 10 is the number that represents "many", so 10 x 10 would be "many x many" and 10 x 10 x 10 (1000) would be "many x many x many" (practically infinite).
• Placing those together 12x12 (all of the people of God) x 1000 (practically infinite) = 144,000 (a multitude of God's people beyond counting).

That's the symbolism of 144,000.
So am I correct? Let's look just past the count of "all God's people from all God's tribes" (Rev 7:5-8) and read the very next part ...

• Rev 7:9-12 [ESV] After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen."

Well son of a gun, would you look at that! Just like we predicted, John sees in the VERY NEXT VERSE. I mean a literal 144,000 Jews is NOT a "multitude beyond counting" ... it was counted ... and "from every nation ..." is not all Jews.

The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14 ...

• Rev 14:1-5 [ESV] Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

So, LITERAL or SYMBOLIC?

• They have the mark on their forehead, so they are the same as the 144,000 from Revelation 7
• Mount Zion is the Temple mountain, isn't it? So these 144,000 people will be crowded into the current Mosque of the Dome if this is literal (although the name "Mount Zion has changed location 3 times throughout history as the Temple moved around Jerusalem).
• These 144,000 are "blameless" and never told a lie ... which contradicts Romans 3:10-12 [ESV] as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." and Eph 2:1-3 [ESV] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
• I think the evidence still leans heavy towards SYMBOLIC 144,000, especially given:
  • Rev 19:7-8 [ESV] Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Thus the 144,000 are the "great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" ... that would be ALL CHRISTIANS, Jesus "little flock" drawn out from the greater flock of the world.

• Matthew 7:13-14 [ESV] "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
• John 10:25-30 [ESV] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

All 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 of us.

All are seeing that vision being fulfilled now.
The 144,000 are the little flock( Luke 12:32) not the great multitude. Jesus made a special covenant with the little flock the night of the Lord's evening meal=Luke 22:29-30) only to those who will sit on thrones partake. Are you being told you will sit on a throne?
As well God is on the throne, the lamb is not= the lamb is not God. There is only 1 God/.

 

[atpollard]

Those teachings from Jesus are in every translation on earth= bible study points. But when one has 0 for an answer, they throw it away as worthless in their darkness.

Orthodoxy is defined by the early church creeds and, for better or worse, your interpretation of the verses in the OP are actively denying those creeds that DEFINE Christian Orthodoxy. This is the forum for discussions based on beliefs that actively oppose orthodoxy (like denying the Trinity).

Technically, Credo-baptism could be viewed as contrary to Orthodoxy, however, it was not addressed in an early creed so this site may view it an alternative view (heterodox) rather than a "heretical" view. However, on a Catholic Board, it WOULD be a heretical view and it would belong in the same sub-forum as denying the Trinity.

I just view it as "their house, so their rules". If you create your own Board/Forum, then YOU get to make YOUR rules.

 

[atpollard]

But when one has 0 for an answer, they throw it away as worthless in their darkness.

You could address the technical criticisms on Matthew 6:33 raised by @Josheb in posts #5 and #19 ... that is not "0".

 

[atpollard]

All are seeing that vision being fulfilled now.
The 144,000 are the little flock( Luke 12:32) not the great multitude. Jesus made a special covenant with the little flock the night of the Lord's evening meal=Luke 22:29-30) only to those who will sit on thrones partake. Are you being told you will sit on a throne?
As well God is on the throne, the lamb is not= the lamb is not God. There is only 1 God/.

Sorry, but to link 144,000 of Revelation (I quoted the verses where the number appears) with Luke 12:32 is just such a "left field" connection that completely ignores the context of Luke that I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just see it as an EPIC FAIL on multiple levels.

If you want to lay out a detailed exegesis presenting a logical case, I will listen, but I am very skeptical that it is more than a delusional connection. One might as well pick any two verses at random and claim they are talking about the same thing ... then redefine the words to create a new doctrine found nowhere else in scripture.

 

[Arial]

Those teachings from Jesus are in every translation on earth= bible study points. But when one has 0 for an answer, they throw it away as worthless in their darkness.

This violates every rule and guideline in Rules 2-3 and 4.2. You cannot post like this on this forum. The next time you do

 

[Arial]

All are seeing that vision being fulfilled now.
The 144,000 are the little flock( Luke 12:32) not the great multitude. Jesus made a special covenant with the little flock the night of the Lord's evening meal=Luke 22:29-30) only to those who will sit on thrones partake. Are you being told you will sit on a throne?
As well God is on the throne, the lamb is not= the lamb is not God. There is only 1 God/.

This violates rule 4.2. You have to give support for what you say, not just say it. It is not orthodox Christianity and you cannot post like that on this forum. The next time it will be .

 

[Viking123]

Orthodoxy is defined by the early church creeds and, for better or worse, your interpretation of the verses in the OP are actively denying those creeds that DEFINE Christian Orthodoxy. This is the forum for discussions based on beliefs that actively oppose orthodoxy (like denying the Trinity).

Technically, Credo-baptism could be viewed as contrary to Orthodoxy, however, it was not addressed in an early creed so this site may view it an alternative view (heterodox) rather than a "heretical" view. However, on a Catholic Board, it WOULD be a heretical view and it would belong in the same sub-forum as denying the Trinity.

I just view it as "their house, so their rules". If you create your own Board/Forum, then YOU get to make YOUR rules.

You mean what Jesus actually teaches rejects your orthodoxy dogma?

 

[Viking123]

You could address the technical criticisms on Matthew 6:33 raised by @Josheb in posts #5 and #19 ... that is not "0".

Matt 6:33=simple to understand for all who know God. When Jesus said HIS=Jehovah=0 doubt in all creation. And its exactly what a true follower does every day of their life.

 

[Viking123]

Sorry, but to link 144,000 of Revelation (I quoted the verses where the number appears) with Luke 12:32 is just such a "left field" connection that completely ignores the context of Luke that I wouldn't even know where to begin. I just see it as an EPIC FAIL on multiple levels.

If you want to lay out a detailed exegesis presenting a logical case, I will listen, but I am very skeptical that it is more than a delusional connection. One might as well pick any two verses at random and claim they are talking about the same thing ... then redefine the words to create a new doctrine found nowhere else in scripture.

Fact-you will not be sitting on a throne. Only the ones bought from the earth=Rev 14:3 will.

 

[atpollard]

You mean what Jesus actually teaches rejects your orthodoxy dogma?

It is not MY orthodox dogma … I’m a Baptist.

However, what Jesus teaches is irrelevant to the definition of what is ORTHODOX. Every heretic (take Pelagianism as an example that believe people can simply choose to live sinless lives and earn heaven through perfection) believes that they are correctly understanding what Jesus actually taught. The original ORTHODOX church (pre schism) is what defines “orthodox” and what they believed was written down in the creeds of the original ecumenical councils.

 

[atpollard]

Matt 6:33=simple to understand for all who know God. When Jesus said HIS=Jehovah=0 doubt in all creation. And it’s exactly what a true follower does every day of their life.

That does not address @Josheb ‘s specific comments. You are avoiding discussing his criticism; he is not avoiding addressing your scripture. If you cannot refute his correction, you could just say that.

 

[atpollard]

Fact-you will not be sitting on a throne. Only the ones bought from the earth=Rev 14:3 will.

I don’t think that I ever claimed that I would be sitting on a throne. [However, just as a point of information, I have already sat on a throne and had my photo taken. It was not God’s throne, but you were not specific, just stating absolute facts that were actually false.]

Since you are so keen on Jesus’ words (we Baptists are also fond of the Word of God), you are saying things about Revelation 14:3 that are not true:

Rev 14:3 [ESV] and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

There is only 1 throne and the 144,000 are not IN IT, they are singing a new song BEFORE the throne.

 

[atpollard]

Wow total rejection of Jesus, pat yourself on the back

As a Jehovah’s Witness … denying the truth of John Chapter 1 … I could say the same to you.

 

[Josheb]

That does not address @Josheb ‘s specific comments. You are avoiding discussing his criticism; he is not avoiding addressing your scripture. If you cannot refute his correction, you could just say that.

(crickets chirping)

In EVERY translation on Earth that clearly show who he is with.

1) Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

Matthew 6:33... was spoken within the context of God having already declared no one seeks God's kingdom first (no one except Jesus, that is). The moment the context was ignored the op failed........... Every single verse in the op, for example, occurs as a direct product of everything written in the history, Law and prophets that preceded it - all of which testify about Jesus. Every single verse cited in the op also exists in contexts that changed following Calvary and Pentecost. There's in no way any Jew denying Jesus' name could ever know God or Jesus as either are. It's an assumption on your part that God could not send God, God the Father could not send God the Son, and it is incumbent upon you, not the reader of the op, to prove your unstated assumptions.

@atpollard and I both would like to read a cogent response to this because, otherwise, the op is faulty.

Matthew 6:33 was not said, and it does not exist, in a vacuum. It is rarely wise, and even less often efficacious to treat any one verse as definitive. The op does that nine times and I am not the only one trying to bring that to your attention, asking you to engage that problem and those that ensue from it. Is the proof-texting of Matthew 6:33 going to be addressed or not? Once that is done, will my subsequent concerns pertaining to each of the nine "lessons" be addressed? Two posters would like you to address the content of Posts 5, 16, and 19 (and I would like to read cogent responses to several of the posts by others).

If there is no response pending, then just say, "No, I am not going to address anything you bring to bear on my op." I am confident everyone here will know exactly what to do with that information.