Why is the Word of God not so Sharp on Forums?

[ReverendRV]

Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too? Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?

 

[Hazelelponi]

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian's thoughts on God honest Truth?

1.) Sin (sin clouds understanding, repentance, fasting and praying can clear up thought)

5.) different worldview

6.) on a mission from Satan.

 

[ReverendRV]

4.) our lives can influence the way we see, understand, and accept certain things (weaker brother argument)

Those are good points. The Weaker Brother point is what I dismiss, because that is about minor differences which we're allowed to have. I wonder why a Verse won't change people on significant things; it should...

But if Soteriology is a minor difference, okay; let them be the Weaker Brother. But would you submit to their Conscience when around them? If not, it's too important; and your Verses should work on them

 

[Hazelelponi]

Those are good points. The Weaker Brother point is what I dismiss, because that is about minor differences which we're allowed to have. I wonder why a Verse won't change people; it should...

But if Soteriology is a minor difference, okay; let them be the Weaker Brother...

Soteriology is not at all minor. I missed you saying Soteriology in the OP, my eyes are going sorry for missing that.

I consider this a salvific issue, and I'm worried for their souls, but they have little reason. I'm not sure why it's treated the way it is. . they aren't in the same faith.

 

[ReverendRV]

Soteriology is not at all minor. I missed you saying Soteriology in the OP, my eyes are going sorry for missing that.

I consider this a salvific issue, and I'm worried for their souls, but have little reason. I'm not sure why it's treated the way it is. . they aren't in the same faith.

Forgive me, I didn't say Soteriology in the OP; but it's mostly what I Debate about. Personally, I don't think Soteriology is a Salvific issue for Evangelicals; but why won't other online Christians believe our Verses? If at first, our Verses are shared beliefs with them, why are those Double Edged Swords not making a difference?

The reason I started the Thread is because I was debating with a Hyper Calvinist elsewhere. He said that there is no Gospel without Limited Atonement. I brought up, that Limited Atonement is not a part of 1 Cor 15; 2-4. Saint Paul says he first delivered to them what is most important; Limited Atonement is not there. If Limited Atonement is a part of the Gospel, it's not a foremost part. This means a Fundamental Gospel without Limited Atonement will Save you. But because of his Hyper Calvinism, he didn't care...

I get bothered when people ignore the obvious. As Protestants, we use this to show Catholics that the simple Gospel will Save us without their church. So why doesn't the Passage work to prove Hyper Calvinism wrong?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Forgive me, I didn't say Soteriology in the OP; but it's mostly what I Debate about. Personally, I don't think Soteriology is a Salvific issue for Evangelicals; but why won't other online Christians believe our Verses? If at first, our Verses are shared beliefs with them, why are those Double Edged Swords not making a difference?

The reason I started the Thread is because I was debating with a Hyper Calvinist elsewhere. He said that there is no Gospel without Limited Atonement. I brought up, that Limited Atonement is not a part of 1 Cor 15; 2-4. Saint Paul says he first delivered to them what is most important; Limited Atonement is not there. If Limited Atonement is a part of the Gospel, it's not a foremost part. This means a Fundamental Gospel without Limited Atonement will Save you. But because of his Hyper Calvinism, he didn't care...

I get bothered when people ignore the obvious. As Protestants, we use this to show Catholics that the simple Gospel will Save us without their church. So why doesn't the Passage work to prove Hyper Calvinism wrong?

It supports hyper Calvinism because it says "us". Limited atonement it is.

God bless you and yours!

 

[ReverendRV]

It supports hyper Calvinism because it says "us". Limited atonement it is.

God bless you and yours!

He raised that point, but it's an assumption that the 'us' is Limited. P1 Jesus Loved his Neighbor, and P2 All are his Neighbor; C the Lord so Loves the World, he died for it...

I've just woke up, so if I have to defend that; it would be later. The 'us' could be Hyper or not...

 

[Josheb]

Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too?

How is scripture and sound doctrine supposed to work among Christians...... and what makes you think all the forum's members are Christians?

Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

By "people," I assume you mean the people of this forum and I don't know what you mean by "theological" change, but the answers are likely to be many, not singular. Some aren't Christians. I will also suggest this question is prompted by the corrupt infection of Dispensationalism (which teaches the Church is corrupt) because Christians have much more agreement regarding the "fundamentals and orthodoxy" than disagreement. It's human nature to discount the positive so the question is a bit of a reflection of the problem about which it asks. All the former Dispies (like myself) and all the former synergists (like myself) stand as a testimony to the fact we're not fixed immediately upon conversion, and we do change due to scripture and sound doctrine. The scriptural precedent established in the epistolary is quite messy and Ephesians 4 is specifically about the fractured condition and the specific goals God has for the leaders Jesus has given the Church to obtain. In light of both, I would say the expectation for consensus is part of the problem to be solved. We should be careful not to make the fundamentals and orthodoxy about sinless perfection.

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

I'm with you. I try to establish points of agreement and build from consensus, but it appears few trust me, few trust the method, few know how to do either (even though it's very easy), and few have the tolerance or endurance to carry the method through to whatever end it may reach. I suspect one explanation for the resistance is due to the fact it will mean one, another, or all will have to change, and our allegiance is stronger to our personal views, our teachers, our doctrines, our extra-biblical sources, our own "methods," than is our allegiance to God and His word well rendered. Most disagreements boil down to a matter of exegetical consistency, but there are also those to which Titus 3:9-11 or Gal. 5:17-21 apply and that gets me/us back to the matter of expectations. Why do I expect everyone to be a Christian, act like a Christian, and rely on the Word and Spirit when I know from both the Church is a mess and there are many poseurs. We know some join forums solely to teach, many of them express no interest in learning from others (even though the consistent precedent of scripture is that God uses others). I also like to approach most matters presuppositionally because if a Christian will examine his/her own unwitting assumptions then s/he teaches him/herself (with the Spirit at work inside each of us) but that gets us all back to the problem of the Church being a messy place and our being the biggest part of the problem. It's much easier to make the other guy the bad guy. There'd be no need for God to employ human preachers and teachers if we had our act together upon being born anew from above.

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?

What makes you think it does not? Would you consider rewording the question to ask why the Word doesn't change a Christian quicker?

 

[ReverendRV]

How is scripture and sound doctrine supposed to work among Christians...... and what makes you think all the forum's members are Christians?

Perhaps; but I don't like to think that...

 

[Arial]

Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too? Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?

We don't know what that word is doing. I think most come to forums already convinced that they are able to defend the beliefs they already have. Let's face it, when it comes to heretical beliefs such as a denial of the Trinity, Arminanism, Pelegianism, semi-Pelegianism, much of Catholicism, etc. those folks began in churches and teachings that present nothing else, and appear to be backing it up with scripture. Sound doctrine using the whole counsel of God, systematically and consistent within itself and Scripture, has never been done, or even mentioned.

When they are confronted with those who broke away from those strongholds and have now learned discernment of what is sound doctrine and what is not, and why, and are able to articulate it and demonstrate it with proper apologetics, keeping the full counsel of God on any doctrinal position in tact, they quite naturally dig in their heels and shut their ears.

Let's face it. If 20 or 30, 40, 50 years ago you thought you were saved because you answered an altar call, to pull that rug out from under yourself, shakes your world more than you can face. But for the power of God. And there but by the grace of God would go many of us who began in that heretical place. It is not likely that many or any would publicly back down from their position on the forum. But we do not know what seeds God has planted or when he will cause them to grow.

Should we consider those who do appear to be brothers because they do recognize and trust Jesus as Savior, to be the weaker brother in this matter, and let them be? I do not think that is what Paul's discussion on the weaker brother is about. Take the parting words of Paul to Timothy about preserving sound doctrine, if there is any doubt. If those opposed to the Doctrines of Grace as they stand, in Reformed theology, begin arguing against it, I do not think we should passively let them be, until and unless we feel God has reined us in.

Much is lost and much is changed when these doctrines are not understood. Consistent and correct Bible interpretation is lost because the view they are coming from created contradictions, and therefore confusion. The knowledge of God is compromised. Even the atonement is compromised and therefore it comes close to a different Jesus. Spiritual growth and growth is faith that comes from the knowledge of God, is stunted. The root cause of the free will in choosing to believe is left unaddressed. And that is the "old man" of human nature still crying out for God and autonomy. Subjection to God and also freedom from him.

And a thought I have had regarding should we cease and desist in confronting these heresies. it is possible that the closer someone gets in seeing that their "opponent" is presenting things that can not be successfully refuted and therefore just may be correct, the angrier they get at the other person. And try to shut them up. But that doesn't mean they can un-see or un-hear what they have begun to see and hear.

 

[Hazelelponi]

He raised that point, but it's an assumption that the 'us' is Limited. P1 Jesus Loved his Neighbor, and P2 All are his Neighbor; C the Lord so Loves the World, he died for it...

I've just woke up, so if I have to defend that; it would be later. The 'us' could be Hyper or not...

Sorry I just woke up myself, didn't sleep well, too much pain in the end.

I will reply a little later when I have a pot of coffee in me. Lol...

 

[ReverendRV]

We don't know what that word is doing. I think most come to forums already convinced that they are able to defend the beliefs they already have. Let's face it, when it comes to heretical beliefs such as a denial of the Trinity, Arminanism, Pelegianism, semi-Pelegianism, much of Catholicism, etc. those folks began in churches and teachings that present nothing else, and appear to be backing it up with scripture. Sound doctrine using the whole counsel of God, systematically and consistent within itself and Scripture, has never been done, or even mentioned.

When they are confronted with those who broke away from those strongholds and have now learned discernment of what is sound doctrine and what is not, and why, and are able to articulate it and demonstrate it with proper apologetics, keeping the full counsel of God on any doctrinal position in tact, they quite naturally dig in their heels and shut their ears.

Let's face it. If 20 or 30, 40, 50 years ago you thought you were saved because you answered an altar call, to pull that rug out from under yourself, shakes your world more than you can face. But for the power of God. And there but by the grace of God would go many of us who began in that heretical place. It is not likely that many or any would publicly back down from their position on the forum. But we do not know what seeds God has planted or when he will cause them to grow.

Should we consider those who do appear to be brothers because they do recognize and trust Jesus as Savior, to be the weaker brother in this matter, and let them be? I do not think that is what Paul's discussion on the weaker brother is about. Take the parting words of Paul to Timothy about preserving sound doctrine, if there is any doubt. If those opposed to the Doctrines of Grace as they stand, in Reformed theology, begin arguing against it, I do not think we should passively let them be, until and unless we feel God has reined us in.

Much is lost and much is changed when these doctrines are not understood. Consistent and correct Bible interpretation is lost because the view they are coming from created contradictions, and therefore confusion. The knowledge of God is compromised. Even the atonement is compromised and therefore it comes close to a different Jesus. Spiritual growth and growth is faith that comes from the knowledge of God, is stunted. The root cause of the free will in choosing to believe is left unaddressed. And that is the "old man" of human nature still crying out for God and autonomy. Subjection to God and also freedom from him.

And a thought I have had regarding should we cease and desist in confronting these heresies. it is possible that the closer someone gets in seeing that their "opponent" is presenting things that can not be successfully refuted and therefore just may be correct, the angrier they get at the other person. And try to shut them up. But that doesn't mean they can un-see or un-hear what they have begun to see and hear.

Thanks, I needed that...

I was thinking about how one Sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I suppose that when we're Watering, we shouldn't expect instant Growth; even when we are using a two edged sword to Water...

The people I'm referring to are the Church, not the Lost. Why doesn't the Word instantly work on them, to get them to believe Sound Doctrine? Our Watering should work swiftly in this case...

That's what bothers me...

 

[ReverendRV]

Thanks, I needed that...

I was thinking about how one Sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I suppose that when we're Watering, we shouldn't expect instant Growth; even when we are using a two edged sword to Water...

The people I'm referring to are the Church, not the Lost. Why doesn't the Word instantly work on them, to get them to believe Sound Doctrine? Our Watering should work swiftly in this case...

That's what bothers me...

This is an example; what if they took their sweet time figuring it out, after Saint Paul Watered the Saints?

Acts 19:1-2 NIV; While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”


Now shouldn't a real Christian believe something you say that's Biblical too; instead of not dodging it? It happens here all the time...

 

[Arial]

Thanks, I needed that...

I was thinking about how one Sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I suppose that when we're Watering, we shouldn't expect instant Growth; even when we are using a two edged sword...

The people I'm referring to are the Church, not the Lost. Why doesn't the Word instantly work on them, to get them to believe Sound Doctrine? Our Watering should work swiftly in this case...

Who says it should work swiftly? God alone knows when it should work swiftly and when it should work slowly or when it should not work at all. And whatever it is, perfect, for the person, sure, but ultimately for his purposes. I don't think believing that we make a choice to believe is something that necessarily, all by itself, keeps one out of the kingdom. God gathers his people, the elect, however he wills. Nothing stops him. So if there are many who believe who think the reason they do is because they made the right choice, that does not change the fact that they believe because God regenerated them and gave them to Christ. But there are also a lot who think they are saved because they answered an altar call who are not. We don't know which is which.

As Reformed, we are dealing with a stronghold or strongholds, which ironically the church itself has built, when it comes to disagreeing with the Doctrines of Grace as they are articulated in Calvinism/Reformed. The pastors and teachers are in the stronghold. If a person goes to the pastor with questions over things they have heard concerning the Doctrines of Grace, it is quite likely they will be told what they are saying is Calvinism and say it is an evil and heretical teaching that makes God evil and not love. I had this very thing happen with my sister and a friend. I gave a little book, and I don't remember the name or the author, but it was a brief outline of one person's experience of what he changed from and to in theology. I gave it to her just to let her know that I was coming from a different place than the one in which we had both stood for over twenty years, in hopes she would see it as easily and quickly as I did and as my brother before me did. (She is highly Charismatic in the Word of Faith camp.) She took it straight to her pastor to see if there was any truth to it. Her response to me after doing this was, "I don't believe it and I don't want anything to do with it and I don't want to talk about it." For the sake of family peace, we do not. I have to leave that one with God.

Jericho had a real, historic, physical, stronghold built around the city. You are familiar with the story. The seven days and the seven sounding of the trumpets, and then the walls came down to rubble. Seven is significant and I think as an application (not a meaning) is symbolic of all/many the sevens in scripture of full and complete and perfect. If God is going to bring down this spiritual stronghold of wrong teaching over years and years and years, he will bring that wall down (in the church or with the individual) when the perfect (whatever that is and he alone knows) of the particular situation is achieved. When I first read the first page of a book by a Reformed preacher, the wall came down for me. The book was about God! But there followed a period of time before that when I was thirsty for something that was missing and only knew to articulate it to myself as "I want to hear about God, from the pulpit!"

What we need to remember is we are just the spokesman of God's word. It accomplishes whatever he sends it out to do.

 

[ReverendRV]

Who says it should work swiftly? God alone knows when it should work swiftly and when it should work slowly or when it should not work at all. And whatever it is, perfect, for the person, sure, but ultimately for his purposes. I don't think believing that we make a choice to believe is something that necessarily, all by itself, keeps one out of the kingdom. God gathers his people, the elect, however he wills. Nothing stops him. So if there are many who believe who think the reason they do is because they made the right choice, that does not change the fact that they believe because God regenerated them and gave them to Christ. But there are also a lot who think they are saved because they answered an altar call Jericho had a real, historic, physical, stronghold built around the city. You are familiar with the story. The seven days and the seven sounding of the trumpets, and then the walls came down to rubble. Seven is significant and I think as an application (not a meaning) is symbolic of all/many the sevens in scripture of full and complete and perfect. If God is going to bring down this spiritual stronghold of wrong teaching over years and years and years, he will bring that wall down (in the church or with the individual) when the perfect (whatever that is and he alone knows) of the particular situation is achieved. When I first read the first page of a book by a Reformed preacher, the wall came down for me. The book was about God! But there followed a period of time before that when I was thirsty for something that was missing and only knew to articulate it to myself as "I want to hear about God, from the pulpit!"

What we need to remember is we are just the spokesman of God's word. It accomplishes whatever he sends it out to do.

Ah neat! I think that's the answer...

See, now that's what I'm talking about; you saying something that's true to a Christian, and they believe it...

That's the way Forums are supposed to work...

 

[Arial]

This is an example; what if they took their sweet time getting it together, after Saint Paul Watered the Saints?

Acts 19:1-2 NIV; While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”


Now shouldn't a real Christian believe something you say that's Biblical too; instead of not dodging it? It happens here all the time...

Well, to be honest, that planting and watering was about establishing the church in places so it could grow. It is about the church, the gospel, growing and spreading.

Should a real Christian believe something we say that is Biblical? Maybe they should, but they think they already do and you are the one who needs to believe what they say just because they say it. Being a Christian does not remove our humanity or our human nature. God's words will tear down strongholds, and his words are the only thing that will. But it is not us tearing down the strongholds by using his words. His word will do whatever he sends it out to do., and when he wants it done, if he does. We just do our part. Speak the truth.

 

[Arial]

I will reply a little later when I have a pot of coffee in me. Lol...

Another thing we have in common! No cup or two for me. The whole dang pot!

 

[David1701]

Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too? Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?

There are many answers to this:

1) Pride

2) Laziness

3) Stubbornness

4) Fake Christians

5) Not God's timing

6) A stronghold in the mind

7) Fear

We also have to remember that God's word always accomplishes what he sends it out to achieve (Is. 55), which might not be what we want it to achieve.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Well, to be honest, that planting and watering was about establishing the church in places so it could grow. It is about the church, the gospel, growing and spreading.

Should a real Christian believe something we say that is Biblical? Maybe they should, but they think they already do and you are the one who needs to believe what they say just because they say it. Being a Christian does not remove our humanity or our human nature. God's words will tear down strongholds, and his words are the only thing that will. But it is not us tearing down the strongholds by using his words. His word will do whatever he sends it out to do., and when he wants it done, if he does. We just do our part. Speak the truth.

In Spirit and in Truth. The Word goes forth. A representation of the Triune God actually.

What's the opposite?

Nature of man, lies of Satan that oppose God, the sins of man.

Man opposes God by nature, by His acts and attitudes, which lies and deceives - to himself first.

We might still have a few left?

Maybe see what sins people have that could contribute to the deception they might be under. Address the root causes that could lead to the deception.

What character flaws lead people to something like Word of Faith. Perhaps a desire to feel like you have control over circumstances which affects you, that not everything is just happening to you. They feel helpless and powerless and allowed themselves to be deceived into trusting in themselves instead of in God. (Their words, their faith as opposed to God's words and a trust in His work).

Is there anything like that - a sense of powerlessness in your sister or anything character-wise based on life circumstances that could have created a stronghold?

We could see if there's a deeper root of some particular beliefs and learn to keep a way of addressing that in a non offensive way...

 

[Dave]

Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too? Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?

In short, it's idolatry. As the saying goes, "you must love the truth or you cannot know it". Love the truth, worship Him in truth, love Jesus. Suppress the truth, suppress Jesus, build idol after you're own image and call it truth. Unfortunately, our flesh, by it's very nature, doesn't make it easy for us to see idolatry in ourselves. This is what is meant by lean not unto your own understanding, but hold to the word of God. Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Idolatry is everywhere these days. We have major denominations built on idolatry. There's self lies, idolatry created from our own flesh, and there are public lies meant to attract your flesh to it. I call it ready made idolatry. Joyce Meyers isn't flying around in a 70 million dollar jet because she is preaching the truth.