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Why is the Word of God not so Sharp on Forums?

What character flaws lead people to something like Word of Faith. Perhaps a desire to feel like you have control over circumstances which affects you, that not everything is just happening to you. They feel helpless and powerless and allowed themselves to be deceived into trusting in themselves instead of in God. (Their words, their faith as opposed to God's words and a trust in His work).
Notions like this are behind my OP. Why don't we stand corrected when they give good reason for their belief? Is it because we have a Stronghold? It goes both ways...

Their Prooftext isn't sharp at all, when it's being used for the wrong reason. But our Prooftext is being used in the right way and for the right reason; why is it a dull blade?

I know; it's working as y'all have described. But if the others are Born Again Christian's, it should be dividing their Thoughts right down to the Soul. So, why is that division not happening? Parables are the Word of God, but they're meant to disguise God's message; yet God speaks plainly to Us. So when we tell the other side of the Church something which is meant to be plain to them... 🤔
 
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Hebrews 4:12 NIV; For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.


I get it; the things of God are Spiritually understood. But that's not what I mean. We're Christians, right? When we use Scripture and Sound Doctrine on each other, why doesn't it work like it's supposed too? Why do people never change for the better; Theologically Speaking? Sure, we can believe differently on things that aren't as important as the Fundamentals and Orthodoxy; but dang it, when it's important we should agree...

I use a 'Shared Belief' tactic. It works; until it doesn't. When I use a shared belief to prove my point, this is when it drives me crazy that people still won't change. Let's say this shared belief is a Bible Verse, or several Verses we agree about their meaning. But when I use them against my dueling partner; all of the sudden, those shared beliefs no longer matter...

So why is it true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God honest Truth?
Thought I would write quick before my pain meds reach max. Haven't read other responses yet.

I reject the premise, that it is true that the Word of God doesn't change a Christian Poster's thoughts about God. That sounds like a mere surface observation. The fact that it doesn't do what WE would expect is the way things usually go.

I mean, the range of effects can be valid anywhere in a range from the philosophical (and probably true), "Everything affects everything", to "The Word of God is killing the 'old man'", without it fitting what WE expected.
 
If I can take a moment to get personal (about ME) …

When I am in a discussion, I am only 50% “LISTENING” and 50% “JUST WAITING TO SPEAK” (so I can make my point and win the discussion). [Of course this just applies to me … everyone else is a MUCH better Christian than I am and would never have these sorts of struggles]. So in an ‘iron sharpens iron’ exchange, we might reach the end of the day and the Holy Spirit will point out to me “You know, they made three points and you only addressed two of them. You sort of dodged that third point and the scripture they presented.” To which I (being honest to God since there is no point in trying to waffle with God) reply “that’s because I have no response for that third point. I really need to look harder at those scriptures and think about that for a while. I am being a good Berean.” God usually nods and says “Uh huh … we’ll see.” So a week later God is still recalling that unanswered point/scripture to my memory and asking “Have you thought about it?” And I am forced to admit “OK, MAYBE he has a point. Scripture does seem to say what he said it says (even looking at the context), but I am still thinking about how that fits with everything else I believe Scripture says.” So another week or two will go by and God will keep sending more “coincidental” bits of information my way until I finally say “Fine, they were right about that point. OK, I admit it.” [Of course by now, the TOPIC is long closed or the post exchange is buried 100 posts back.]

That is how I came from NEUTRAL on Atonement (none of my business and not explicit in scripture was my official position) to LIMITED as my official stance (Spurgeon sealed the deal with his sermon on the subject).

As another example, I was taught PENAL SUBSTITUTION as everyone believes it and then one day a Christian poster challenged me on where Scripture teaches that the Father poured wrath on the Son. I KNEW it had to be there, all my great and trustworthy teachers had explained it in a systematic theology that fit together and made perfect sense. Then I went searching scripture to PROVE them wrong and what I had been taught about WRATH correct (God poured the wrath that we deserved onto Christ). When I read what SCRIPTURE actually states, I was forced to admit that what I had been taught went beyond what the Word of God actually claims. So I was reluctantly forced to adjust my theology to align with scripture. [A source of many angry arguments and accusations directed against me for pointing to where we ‘assume’ and what the word actually ‘states’ about wrath and forgiveness.]
 
If I can take a moment to get personal (about ME) …

When I am in a discussion, I am only 50% “LISTENING” and 50% “JUST WAITING TO SPEAK” (so I can make my point and win the discussion). [Of course this just applies to me … everyone else is a MUCH better Christian than I am and would never have these sorts of struggles]. So in an ‘iron sharpens iron’ exchange, we might reach the end of the day and the Holy Spirit will point out to me “You know, they made three points and you only addressed two of them. You sort of dodged that third point and the scripture they presented.” To which I (being honest to God since there is no point in trying to waffle with God) reply “that’s because I have no response for that third point. I really need to look harder at those scriptures and think about that for a while. I am being a good Berean.” God usually nods and says “Uh huh … we’ll see.” So a week later God is still recalling that unanswered point/scripture to my memory and asking “Have you thought about it?” And I am forced to admit “OK, MAYBE he has a point. Scripture does seem to say what he said it says (even looking at the context), but I am still thinking about how that fits with everything else I believe Scripture says.” So another week or two will go by and God will keep sending more “coincidental” bits of information my way until I finally say “Fine, they were right about that point. OK, I admit it.” [Of course by now, the TOPIC is long closed or the post exchange is buried 100 posts back.]

That is how I came from NEUTRAL on Atonement (none of my business and not explicit in scripture was my official position) to LIMITED as my official stance (Spurgeon sealed the deal with his sermon on the subject).

As another example, I was taught PENAL SUBSTITUTION as everyone believes it and then one day a Christian poster challenged me on where Scripture teaches that the Father poured wrath on the Son. I KNEW it had to be there, all my great and trustworthy teachers had explained it in a systematic theology that fit together and made perfect sense. Then I went searching scripture to PROVE them wrong and what I had been taught about WRATH correct (God poured the wrath that we deserved onto Christ). When I read what SCRIPTURE actually states, I was forced to admit that what I had been taught went beyond what the Word of God actually claims. So I was reluctantly forced to adjust my theology to align with scripture. [A source of many angry arguments and accusations directed against me for pointing to where we ‘assume’ and what the word actually ‘states’ about wrath and forgiveness.]
See; now that's how it should be. Scripture should always divide our Thoughts...

I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...
 
See; now that's how it should be. Scripture should always divide our Thoughts...

I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...
Judgment Days ~ by ReverendRV * June 15

Romans 2:5 ESV; But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

Theology sometimes presents us with a System to explain difficulties in the Bible. I often say that if you cannot find an answer for a possible mistake in the Bible, and no one is able to give you the answer; it doesn’t mean there’s nobody out there who can give an answer. There is a Principle in Theology known as ‘Dual Fulfilment’. Isaiah 7:14 is a dual fulfillment; a Promised son was born in the Old Testament; and in the New Testament. Jesus read from the Book of Isaiah; but stopped at a certain point, saying that in this day the reading was fulfilled in their hearing. The Reason Jesus stopped was because the next Verse he could have read, will be fulfilled on Judgment Day. ~ Another Verse also has a Double fulfillment; ‘The Sun will darken and the Moon turn blood red, before the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord comes’. In Ellicott’s Commentary, He says the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord is the Day Jesus Christ died. Saint Peter teaches us it was Christ’s Judgment Day. Saint Paul teaches this Judgment Day is coming again…

Why is there a Judgment Day? It is due to the Sin of the World. ~ What do you call people who Lie? Have you ever Lied? Then you belong in their Category. Do you not believe in God? Now you broke the First Commandment to believe in God. Have you ever thought of God as anything other than what the Bible says he is? Then you broke the Second Commandment not to make a god to suit yourself. Have you ever Hated someone? Jesus said this means you’ve Murdered them in your Heart. He also said, ‘Unbelievers, Murderers, Idolaters, and all Liars deserve to go to Hell’. Will you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or Hell? ~ What you need is an Alternative Judgment Day where God’s Wrath can be revealed…

For God so Loved the world he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin, that he could be Sinless. He lived a life of maintaining his Sinlessness, and this is why God his Father was well pleased with him. He earned his way to Heaven by being Good, but volunteered to pay the Penalty for the Sins of every new Believer; by being a Substitute for them, on a Substitute Day of Judgment and Wrath. Jesus Christ died on the Cross by bleeding to death, was buried; but arose from the Grave Alive! He was seen by five Hundred people before he Ascended to Heaven. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your lord God; and learn from him at a Gospel Church. ~ Are you not convinced that the Day of Christ’s Crucifixion is the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord’s Judgment? How could that Day be Great at all?? As Christians we celebrate the day every year; after all, why in the world do we call that Terrible day, ‘Good Friday’?

Isaiah 53:5 ESV; But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
 
I suspect we'll disagree with you on PSA, but you get it...
EVERYONE disagrees with me on PSA. :)
So I just keep inviting them to show me where the Bible teaches about “transferred wrath” (the concept that I couldn’t find). :cool:
 
Maybe see what sins people have that could contribute to the deception they might be under. Address the root causes that could lead to the deception.
That tends to make people think of the "big sins" that legalists always fall back on, while never recognizing the sins in themselves. Things like legalism, judgementalism, hypocrasy, self righteousness, pride, etc. Things like drinking, smoking (neither of which are declared sins by God. Drunkenness produces sin and sins, and so is not wise) women wearing pants, (also not declared sin by God) adultery, murder etc. Those things would not lead one into the deception of "free will" or Word of Life. And it is a matter of being deceived.
What character flaws lead people to something like Word of Faith.
I would not say they are character flaws. Those who stand in the pulpit or ply their craft in the media---yeah that is a character flaw. Greed. (And greed may be at the heart of many of the followers also.) A willingness to prey upon the desperate for personal gain. But with a great many of the followers, they were introduced to these teachings, including the altar call salvation, from the beginning. It appealed to them, was made to sound biblical by using isolated scriptures with no exegesis or true searching for the meaning, either by the pastor or the individuals. It gets embedded in the psyche and that is how it becomes a stronghold. It is no different than deliberate brainwashing in cults. It becomes very difficult, and very frightening to dislodge it or to let it go.

It is easy to understand really. If for however many years you have believed that an altar call response or a prayer of invitation to Jesus, is what saved you; then someone comes along and says only the elect are saved and God does all of that, from new birth, to faith, to sanctification, to security, you are going to begin to fear for your salvation---being may. Why? They can never see the "repent" or the "believe and you will be saved" without their mind inserting "choose" in there. They are unable to dissociate the term "elect" and "God chooses who to save", from arrogance and bragging if a person says they believe because they are one of the elect. And they can't separate the "love of God" from the concept of being fair.

And if you are of the Word of Faith gang, to let go of all the mantras and promises and methods of manipulating your life, looks like a fearful doubt that could send you into poverty, and illness.
They feel helpless and powerless and allowed themselves to be deceived into trusting in themselves instead of in God. (Their words, their faith as opposed to God's words and a trust in His work).
Exactly. And no matter how many times you point out that they are trusting in themselves (free will and Word of Faith, as Word of Faith is always also free will) and not God, they will deny it. And they truly, probably, believe their own denial. They have self protective blinders on, and cannot see it. That Word of Life movement actually has its roots in Christian Science and the other metaphysical religions of the day. My sister hates CS, and rightly so. But to her if you attach Jesus' name to anything, no matter how similar it is to the original error, it is validated. With CS it was about healing and death that could be overcome by changing ones thinking and their words. With WOL it is also wealth. But it is witchcraft all the same. Attempting to manipulate circumstances and God through methods.
Is there anything like that - a sense of powerlessness in your sister or anything character-wise based on life circumstances that could have created a stronghold?
The stronghold was able to be erected because of personality traits, not flaws. Yes, she likes to be in control of her life. I was quite happy to relinquish that control to God. Breathed a huge sigh of relief when I realized he was in control not me. I am sure she would too, but she is unable to get there. Plus she raised three sons in the same false teachings. How do you turn around as a mother (or father) and say, I was wrong, lets start all over? And she actually believes what she is being taught, is comfortable in that place, no longer has the ability to read the word through any other lens, and does not want her boat rocked. Some people can't handle it, and maybe that is why God lets them stay in that deception even though it is a deception, and they belong to him. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, and I honestly believe she is. It is just that in the end, everything that was built on the foundation with wood and straw instead of the precious stones, will be burned up, but the person will be saved.
We could see if there's a deeper root of some particular beliefs and learn to keep a way of addressing that in a non offensive way...
I would laugh, but it isn't funny. You of course do not know my sister. Any so much as a hint that a person is trying to change what she believes, or is in disagreement with it, is offensive. There is a family dynamic in play here as well. She is the oldest sibling, I am the middle child. She will accept no teaching from me. It is too upside down and backwards to her. She is the leader.

Only problem is, she is strong willed, and me even more so. Once it starts, I can find no place to back down. She will simply eventually walk away, but the grudge and personal dislike will never leave. She will alienate herself from the family so as not to be around me, and take her sons with her. It has happened before, and we got past it eventually, but there is only so much time left. She is in her eighties, me in my late seventies. And she is my double sister by blood. The blood of our parents, and the blood of Jesus.
 
EVERYONE disagrees with me on PSA. :)
So I just keep inviting them to show me where the Bible teaches about “transferred wrath” (the concept that I couldn’t find). :cool:
God is angry with sin.

Jesus was made sin for us.

God imputed his righteous anger against sin onto Jesus, as our Substitute.
 
, I was taught PENAL SUBSTITUTION as everyone believes it and then one day a Christian poster challenged me on where Scripture teaches that the Father poured wrath on the Son.
This will derail the thread if it is discussed, but I have to ask, for the sake of thinking about it and possibley (you) starting a thread devoted to the topic: Does it have to be wrath poured out of Christ in order to be penal substitution? And wouldn't the statement "wrath poured on the Son" first need to be explained by the one who is using that terminology?
 
Perhaps; but I don't like to think that...
Yet doing so may help solve at least part of the matter.

Matthew 7:21-23
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you....."

They sit next to us every Sunday morning. How is it they would not also be in internet forums? The problem is 1) they do not come wearing neon signs declaring the poseur condition, 2) we are unable to identify anyone's eternal disposition, 3) God, in His infinite wisdom, sees fit to have this be the condition; the wheat grow and thrive among the weeds, and....................................................................

..................................4) we may well be resisting God when we resist these facts 😯.

Consider how the title of this op has been worded. It implies the word of God is not sharp, not that the person presumed to have it working inside is the problem. I've been thinking about that since I left the forum yesterday. If I had a finely honed light-saber sword made of diamond (or whatever the hardest material in creation might be) what could possibly dull its edge? Nothing. Yet trying to use a sword to open a can of beans would be a misguided effort that might well hurt the human wielder of God's word. We're not supposed to turn screws with a mallet. Wrong tool for the job. It's likely you've read me say, "I don't expect non-Christians to act like Christians." I say it with some small degree of regularity. That can be modified to apply to the Christian. Don't expect the new Christian, the immature Christian, the ideologue Christian, the legalistic Christion to act like a Christian. While there may not be many non-Christian's members who either deliberately pose as Christians or don't realize their "faith" is one of mere flesh or intellectual assent, there are a lot of us who have yet cannot recognize any one of the many things that cause the genuine Christian not respond to the Word's judging of thought and intents.

John 3:19-20 NIV
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

It may be a little easier for a Christian not to hide, but that propensity remains the human condition even after the new birth.

John 3:21
But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, so that his deeds will be revealed [f]as having been wrought in God.

Walking in the light of the Logos of God made flesh is rarely easy, especially when hiding from one's deeds. Even Paul and Peter are reported to have failed.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Some sincere, genuine, earnest Christians use the living and active, thought-judging sword as a mallet. Others as a letter opener. They do so with themselves. It's a nail file for some and they can all justly say they rely on the soul and spirit dividing sword. You or I, and everyone else, may fall prey to thinking our use of God's word - any genuinely commendable impeccable use of God's word - is sufficient to persuade but that can be a subtly dangerous form of hubris because it is God, not us, who gives His word purpose and accomplishes what it is He has for it to do. A sword is not usually used to break up concrete. God has other devices for that task ;).
 
Some sincere, genuine, earnest Christians use the living and active, thought-judging sword as a mallet. Others as a letter opener. They do so with themselves. It's a nail file for some and they can all justly say they rely on the soul and spirit dividing sword. You or I, and everyone else, may fall prey to thinking our use of God's word - any genuinely commendable impeccable use of God's word - is sufficient to persuade but that can be a subtly dangerous form of hubris because it is God, not us, who gives His word purpose and accomplishes what it is He has for it to do. A sword is not usually used to break up concrete. God has other devices for that task ;).
I agree. But Theoretically, our Sword should do well on each other (Believer). I guess the trick is using it right...
 
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@ReverendRV,

If you haven't already done so, I strongly recommend giving Bonhoeffer's "Life Together" a read. It's a small book but it changed the way I live, especially the chapter on the "ministry of the tongue". If God uses it to address the matters expressed in this op the way He did with me then you will never look at yourself or another Christian, the same.
 
I agree. But Theoretically, our Sword should well on each other (Believer). I guess the trick is using it right...
It's not our Sword.

The Sword of the Spirit should, most assuredly, be wielded well, but it is never wielded well when we 1) wield it with our own agenda apart from God's and 2) imagine "our" impeccable use is sufficient. You are also on to another very real and very valid point that intersects with what I've previously posted. Imagine you are in a "sword" "fight" and one of you has a saber and the other a broadsword. Who wins?

Neither if they do not know how to wield God's tool for God's purpose in that moment. Both, if they do wield their respective tool as authentic servants of God knowledgeable in the moment of God's purpose. That is why every Christian who joins a forum only to teach fails........................ and why the never-dulled sharpness of the Sword has little effect in their life. I might even say that could very well be the reason God brought them to the forum - to learn! You read me talk about my motives. I never join a forum to teach. I rarely post with the belief I know something everyone else does not. There are arenas in which I am in charge, or places where I am the leader Jesus has provided, but it is not CCAM. There's always the thread where the flock is a flock of leaders. Shall we all drop trou and see who can pee the farthest?

No thanks. I'll watch until y'all are done.

Gratitude is never genuine if you think you deserved it. Twenty-five years working with the developmentally disabled has convinced me I'm the one with limited cognitive faculties in God's house.

I'm digressing. My point, at least one of the core points, is that we all need to self-examine our expectations. Subconscious expectations are an excellent way to frustrate oneself. Expectations that aren't stated and aren't mutually shared is another. Expectations held in rivalry with God's (or God's methods) are yet another recipe for self-frustration. That's why I asked so many questions. You are able to answer them (most of the time ;)), or at least I have found you capable of doing so, else I would have posted with a different tack. Two Christians, one with a saber-form, and the other with a shinobigatana-formof the Sword fighting together can accomplish a great deal.

Especially when it is realized the battle is first and foremost within.

Hebrews 4:8-13
For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

The author of Hebrews was not writing about Christians slicing and dicing each other. I am no judge of another's thoughts or heart unless and until they've posted them, explained them, and availed them of my judgment and even then I am obligated to Philippians 2:3.

It is really quite inconvenient ;).




gotta go. i'll check back later
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I agree. But Theoretically, our Sword should do well on each other (Believer). I guess the trick is using it right...
Where is this"should" coming from? Intellectually I guess, one would think it would. "If I just tell them, and make it very clear, and show them from the word, naturally they will understand and see." God's servants are a mouth piece. He is the power. And if stubborn refusal to learn and listen is an area in another person God is working in/on to sanctify in that area, by bringing them head to head with what they will not deal with through the mouth piece of a servant, who are we to say what should happen and when? We are not just dealing with doctrinal difference themselves, but the pure bull headed, stubborness of people, refusing to listen and learn. And some may not be Christians at all but only think they are, and sound like they are, because they do know the right words. In which case, they may become Christians and through right teaching, God willing.
 
He raised that point, but it's an assumption that the 'us' is Limited. P1 Jesus Loved his Neighbor, and P2 All are his Neighbor; C the Lord so Loves the World, he died for it...

I've just woke up, so if I have to defend that; it would be later. The 'us' could be Hyper or not...

I did worry now about answering this because if the thread is going in one direction, disrupting that flow isn't always positive so you don't have to reply, only if you wanted to.

But firstly to answer this, while Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors He never once said He loved his neighbors.

He in fact went the other way by saying things like He only came for the lost sheep of Israel and his family ( mother father etc) did the will of His Father and His friends followed His commandments.

There's nothing Jesus said or did which would indicate unlimited atonement.

What he died for was to bring the entire world under His Authority as both Savior as well as Judge. He is both just and the justifier.

The us is absolutely specific. When there's an us the who matters.

I'm sorry if I'm taking the thread in a direction you don't want it to go anymore. I was just exhausted and then the thread started going somewhere else. But I did want to answer anyway, just in case.

While we were symbolically in the crowd in front of the cross when Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do, the death was limited in the atoning work.

As far as why do people do or believe what they do, I don't know. I think @DialecticSkeptic is right about Supra but I don't want him to be and I don't even know why I don't want him to be... But I really don't want to admit he's right.

Maybe we all have our oddities that only God really knows.
 
I did worry now about answering this because if the thread is going in one direction, disrupting that flow isn't always positive so you don't have to reply, only if you wanted to.

But firstly to answer this, while Jesus commanded us to love our neighbors He never once said He loved his neighbors.

He in fact went the other way by saying things like He only came for the lost sheep of Israel and his family ( mother father etc) did the will of His Father and His friends followed His commandments.

There's nothing Jesus said or did which would indicate unlimited atonement.

What he died for was to bring the entire world under His Authority as both Savior as well as Judge. He is both just and the justifier.

The us is absolutely specific. When there's an us the who matters.

I'm sorry if I'm taking the thread in a direction you don't want it to go anymore. I was just exhausted and then the thread started going somewhere else. But I did want to answer anyway, just in case.

While we were symbolically in the crowd in front of the cross when Jesus said forgive them for they know not what they do, the death was limited in the atoning work.

As far as why do people do or believe what they do, I don't know. I think @DialecticSkeptic is right about Supra but I don't want him to be and I don't even know why I don't want him to be... But I really don't want to admit he's right.

Maybe we all have our oddities that only God really knows.
In a way, this isn't derailing the Thread; because it's what prompted the OP. - P1, Jesus said Loving God and your Neighbor fulfills the Law. P2, Jesus Kept the Law. C, Jesus Loved his Neighbor. ~ My thoughts go back to the Edenic Covenant; is it it's own Covenant of Works, or was it part of the Mosaic Covenant of Works? It's a Presbyterian/Baptist difference; but Christ Kept Adam's Covenant with God too; and that affects everybody's neighborhood...

Who's his Neighbor? As the Second Adam, the World is his Neighbor. As the Elect One, the Unconditionally Elect are his Neighbor. As the Second Adam, he purchased even false prophets; and is their Sovereign. As the Second Adam, he Sacrificed himself for the World; but as the Christ, he only Bore the Sins of the Many...


I guess the Bottom line question is; who is his Neighbor? If we need a new Thread; maybe that's the one...
 
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In a way, this isn't derailing the Thread; because it's what prompted the OP. - P1, Jesus said Loving God and your Neighbor fulfills the Law. P2, Jesus Kept the Law. C, Jesus Loved his Neighbor. ~ My thoughts go back to the Edenic Covenant; is it it's own Covenant of Works, or was it part of the Mosaic Covenant of Works? It's a Presbyterian/Baptist difference; but Christ Kept Adam's Covenant with God too; and that affects everybody's neighborhood...

Who's his Neighbor? As the Second Adam, the World is his Neighbor. As the Elect One, the Unconditionally Elect are his Neighbor. As the Second Adam, he purchased even false prophets; and is their Sovereign. As the Second Adam, he Sacrificed himself for the World; but as the Christ, he only Bore the Sins of the Many...


I guess the Bottom line question is; who is his Neighbor? If we need a new Thread; maybe that's the one...

My reply is turning into a book and I'm not half done so we should definitely make a new thread....

Maybe I'm overcomplicating - I have a tendency to overcomplicate the simple...

But at any rate let's do a thread...
 
My reply is turning into a book and I'm not half done so we should definitely make a new thread....

Maybe I'm overcomplicating - I have a tendency to overcomplicate the simple...

But at any rate let's do a thread...
Go ahead; your OP can be the 'Steering Wheel' of the Thread. As you're concerned about deviating from my OP here, everyone else will be concerned about staying on Topic with you...

Most of the Reformed here are probably Presbyterian anyway...
 
[1 Corinthians 15:2-4] supports hyper-Calvinism because it says "us." Limited atonement it is.

Exactly, Hazelelponi.

Well, mostly. I don't know what this hyper-Calvinism refers to but, yes, this passage speaks of a limited atonement by virtue of saying that Christ died for "our sins" according to the scriptures (v. 3). If an unlimited atonement was meant, I suppose Paul would have said that Christ died for "the sins of all" or something to that effect. But he is speaking explicitly to the church (1:2) and of fellow believers (15:1). That is for whom Christ died (cf. John 10:15).

The point being made by ReverendRV is not unlike saying that the Trinity isn't of utmost importance because this passage doesn't expressly mention it. But it does refer to Christ, doesn't it? And we know from elsewhere in scriptures—referring to the hermeneutic principle of analogia fidei (analogy of faith)—that Christ is the incarnate Son of a triune God along with the Father and Holy Spirit.

(Note: This analogia fidei is the interpretive principle that individual passages of scripture must be interpreted in light of the whole body of faith, that is, the overall doctrinal teaching of scripture. It emphasizes doctrinal coherence and unity within the system of truth revealed by God. This principle is used doctrinally, particularly in systematics, to ensure that no interpretation of a single text contradicts the totality of biblical teaching. For example, if a verse seems to imply that salvation is by works, the analogia fidei would compel the interpreter to re-evaluate that reading in light of the clear, comprehensive biblical teaching on justification by faith alone.)
 
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