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Why is Jesus called the Only Begottten Son?

Greetings again John Bauer,
I am sorry to hear about the passing of your sister. It sounds like she played a formative role in your life. I respect the weight of that, and I understand that these are not ideal circumstances for deep engagement in theological debate.
I appreciate your thoughts. Yes my sister gave me and my other sister much help and guidance in my later teenage years and introduced me to a Young People's Class and a Tuesday home study class and both of these awakened my Bible interest. She was laid to rest next to her husband. My other brother-in-law is in a grave nearby, and also my parents and many other friends. We believe in the resurrection not immortal souls and my father-in-law and mother-in-law have the inscription "In hope of the resurrection". She died at 100 years and was a widow for 38 years.
So, while I will respect your need for space right now, I trust that you will return to this thread when you are able, to deal honestly with the clear exegetical and doctrinal rebuttals that have been offered. When you're ready, I will be here to continue the exchange.
I am reticent to retrace all that has transpired and have started to listen to six thorough studies on Psalm 8 given in Canada in 2016. I am disappointed with the current posts, as Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35 clearly state that the conception was the result of God's power, the Holy Spirit. As such Jesus was not a son of Joseph, but the Son of God - but possibly you seem to disagree in part here. I am content to leave this forum. I appreciate your interaction.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
That word "sired" means he impregnated Mary.
I would not say that God "impregnated" Mary, because that gives the idea that God is like a human male, with a physical body, We are not told (as far as I am aware) precisely how God caused Mary, a virgin, to conceive. Mary asked how she, a virgin, could conceive, and the angel Gabriel replied:

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35)
 
.
FAQ: From whence did baby Jesus obtain a Y chromosome for his male gender if
not from Joseph?


REPLY: In the beginning, Eve's entire body-- inside and out, front to back, top to
bottom, and side to side --was constructed with material taken from Adam's body.
(Gen 2:21-22) So if God could construct an entire woman from material taken from
a man's body, then it shouldn't be too difficult for Him to construct a teensy little
chromosome from a woman's body.

The beauty of it is that a Y chromosome constructed with material taken from
Mary's body wouldn't be an alien substance created ex nihilo; but would be 100%
natural, and easily traceable to David. I'm very confident that what I suggest herein
actually took place when the power of the Most High overshadowed Jesus' mom per
Luke 1:35.


FAQ: Doesn't Luke 1:36 suggest Mary was of the tribe of Levi instead of David's tribe
Judah?


REPLY: Levi and Judah were Leah's children (Gen 35:23) i.e. Elizabeth and Mary
were cousins by means of the same paternal grandmother.


FAQ: I've heard it said that Jesus had God's blood instead of human blood. Is that
true?


REPLY: According to Lev 17:11, the life of the flesh is in the blood. Well then, in
order for Jesus to be David's bona fides paternal descendant, he had to have
human life in his blood due to the fact that his paternal ancestor David was human.

One of the oldest creeds in the book states that Jesus is fully God and fully Man.
Well that creed would be grossly mistaken if something other than human life was
in Jesus' blood. Plus: on numerous occasions Jesus referred to himself as "son of
Man" which, likewise, would be patently false were human life not in his blood.
_
 
i believe that the Greek word " μονογενής - monogenēs " refers to the combination of 2 different Greek words

μονογενής - monogenēs


1... " μόνος - mon'-os " - meaning = " only one
- sole or single; - alone, only, by themselves - one of a kind


2... " γίνομαι - ginomai - " - meaning = "
to become - to (come into being), to be assembled, to be ( to come, -fall, be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass) be done, be fulfilled - TO BE MADE



this Greek word " μόνος - mon'-os " - "is used 45 total times in the manuscripts - here are just a few instances how this Greek is used and what it means.


Php 4:15 ye only
Col 4:11 These only
1Th 3:1 Athens alone
1Ti 1:17 the only wise God
1Ti 6:15 only Potentate
1Ti 6:16 Who only
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke
Heb 9: the high priest alone
2Jn 1:1 I only
Jud 1:4 the only Lord God
Jud 1:25 the only wise God
Rev 9:4 only those men
Rev 15:4 your name only


this Greek word " γίνομαι - ginomai - "is used 672 total times in the manuscripts - here are just a few instances how this Greek is used and what it means.


Mrk 5:16 it befell
Mrk 5:33 + Luk 14:22 done
Mrk 6:2 + Mrk 11:19 was come, - are wrought
Mrk 9:3 became
Mrk 9:7 there was
Mrk 9:33 being
Mrk 10:44 + Mrk 10:43 + Mrk 13:19 will be
Mrk 12:10 is become
Mrk 12:11 + Mrk 13:18, 19 This was
Mrk 10:44 + Mrk 13:7, 18 be
Mrk 13:28 is
Mrk 13:30 be done
Mrk 14:4 made
Mrk 15:33 + Mrk 15:42 was come - there was
Mrk 16:10 had been
Luk 1:2 were
Luk 1:5 There was
Luk 1:20 be performed
Luk 1:38 be
Luk 2:2 + Jhn 1:10 was made
Luk 2:6 so it was
Luk 2:13 there was
Luk 2:15 came to pass pass,
Luk 2:42 was
Luk 2:46 came to pass,
Luk 3:2 came
Luk 3:21 came to pass
Luk 3:22 came
Luk 4:3 be made
Luk 4:23 done
Luk 5:1 came to pass


when we combine the two Greek words " μόνος - mon'-os " and " γίνομαι - ginomai - we have the Greek word " μονογενής - monogenēs "

meaning Jesus was the Only Son That Was made by God as a son pf God created - AS A SON

meaning = Adam and Eve were not conceived by God as " son and daughter of God " - the Angels are not conceived by God, but are created and made, but not CONCEIVED by God as a part of the seed of the Spirit of God.


Jesus was created differently than any other creature or being that had ever been created by being and existing as literally God himself in a spiritual birth wherein the " Spirit Of Holy " conceived himself in a human mother

and thus was the child / son both Lord and Anointing / Christ and Lord God Almighty manifested in Flesh

Jesus was unique and one of a kind and the Only Created Son Of God - it was the manner in how he was brought into the world as a child / son - human


humans are children of God but Jesus alone is the only " created as son "

Jesus is created as " THE ONLY MADE - ONLY CREATED SON OF GOD

something that neither Adam and Eve nor any other human nor the Angels are created as, humans must be reborn " born again " in a spiritual birth as Jesus was born in a spiritual birth, to be truly spiritual child of God

moving from the reality that Adam was never a son of anyone and Adam's descendants are sons and daughters, when they are born, but are children of God only because they are created as children and born. God seeks spiritual birth and spiritual union through Jesus the Anointing Spirit in us
 
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Greetings Eleanor,

A donkey and a horse produce a hybrid, a mule.
Which is both horse and donkey, not rabbit and squirrel.
Was the result a hybrid, a baby god and a baby human? I thought you considered the following
The result was both, fully divine and fully human being in a physical human body.
Does this agree with the word "begat"? Did Jesus have two minds? One as a child, a human, that needed development. Was his other mind, as God the Son, fully developed as a child? How do you account for the following?
Jesus had two natures, human and divine (Jn 1:1, 14).
How God did that is for him to know, and for the born again to accept on his God-breathed word (2 Tim 3:16).
One's response to that revelation (Jn 1:1, 14)--belief or unbelief--separates the regenerate from the unregenerate.
 
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i believe that the Greek word " μονογενής - monogenēs " refers to the combination of 2 different Greek words

μονογενής - monogenēs


1... " μόνος - mon'-os " - meaning = " only one
- sole or single; - alone, only, by themselves - one of a kind


2... " γίνομαι - ginomai - " - meaning = "
to become - to (come into being), to be assembled, to be ( to come, -fall, be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass) be done, be fulfilled - TO BE MADE



this Greek word " μόνος - mon'-os " - "is used 45 total times in the manuscripts - here are just a few instances how this Greek is used and what it means.


Php 4:15 ye only
Col 4:11 These only
1Th 3:1 Athens alone
1Ti 1:17 the only wise God
1Ti 6:15 only Potentate
1Ti 6:16 Who only
2Ti 4:11 Only Luke
Heb 9: the high priest alone
2Jn 1:1 I only
Jud 1:4 the only Lord God
Jud 1:25 the only wise God
Rev 9:4 only those men
Rev 15:4 your name only


this Greek word " γίνομαι - ginomai - "is used 672 total times in the manuscripts - here are just a few instances how this Greek is used and what it means.


Mrk 5:16 it befell
Mrk 5:33 + Luk 14:22 done
Mrk 6:2 + Mrk 11:19 was come, - are wrought
Mrk 9:3 became
Mrk 9:7 there was
Mrk 9:33 being
Mrk 10:44 + Mrk 10:43 + Mrk 13:19 will be
Mrk 12:10 is become
Mrk 12:11 + Mrk 13:18, 19 This was
Mrk 10:44 + Mrk 13:7, 18 be
Mrk 13:28 is
Mrk 13:30 be done
Mrk 14:4 made
Mrk 15:33 + Mrk 15:42 was come - there was
Mrk 16:10 had been
Luk 1:2 were
Luk 1:5 There was
Luk 1:20 be performed
Luk 1:38 be
Luk 2:2 + Jhn 1:10 was made
Luk 2:6 so it was
Luk 2:13 there was
Luk 2:15 came to pass pass,
Luk 2:42 was
Luk 2:46 came to pass,
Luk 3:2 came
Luk 3:21 came to pass
Luk 3:22 came
Luk 4:3 be made
Luk 4:23 done
Luk 5:1 came to pass


when we combine the two Greek words " μόνος - mon'-os " and " γίνομαι - ginomai - we have the Greek word " μονογενής - monogenēs "

meaning Jesus was the Only Son That Was made by God as a son pf God created - AS A SON

meaning = Adam and Eve were not conceived by God as " son and daughter of God " - the Angels are not conceived by God, but are created and made, but not CONCEIVED by God as a part of the seed of the Spirit of God.


Jesus was created differently than any other creature or being that had ever been created by being and existing as literally God himself in a spiritual birth wherein the " Spirit Of Holy " conceived himself in a human mother

and thus was the child / son both Lord and Anointing / Christ and Lord God Almighty manifested in Flesh

Jesus was unique and one of a kind and the Only Created Son Of God - it was the manner in how he was brought into the world as a child / son - human


humans are children of God but Jesus alone is the only " created as son "

Jesus is created as " THE ONLY MADE - ONLY CREATED SON OF GOD

something that neither Adam and Eve nor any other human nor the Angels are created as, humans must be reborn " born again " in a spiritual birth as Jesus was born in a spiritual birth, to be truly spiritual child of God

moving from the reality that Adam was never a son of anyone and Adam's descendants are sons and daughters, when they are born, but are children of God only because they are created as children and born. God seeks spiritual birth and spiritual union through Jesus the Anointing Spirit in us
But then if you say that Jesus Christ was created by God the Father, that goes against the opening of John's gospel:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)
 
And why don't pastors teach on this topic? Am I weird for wanting information?
Personally, I take a different approach to this verse and sometimes receive flack for doing so. The word "monogenes" transliterally means single-source or one-origin. The prefix "mono" means one, single, or sole. The word "ginomai" means to to become, to make, assemble, brought to pass, or wrought. What then was the one, single, solitary, sole making of Jesus?

The Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1:18-20
Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, since he was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Conceived by the Holy Spirit alone, not the Holy Spirit plus a fleshly ovum from the sinful virgin Mary. The text has always been understood to preclude a male sperm, but it also precludes a female ovum. This goes against the traditional viewpoint in which Mary contributed an egg, or ovum, and Jesus was half-human and half Spirit in his physical constitution, as a matter of biological conception. Now you can see why dissent is a common response.

Theologically speaking, there is a precedent. Isaac is also called monogene and he was not an only son. Abraham had eight sons, one before Isaac was born and six afterwards. Neither was Isaac conceived from only one source. Abram and Sarai had sex, and each contributed something to the conception of Isaac. How then is Isaac an "only begotten," or one-sourced child? Isaac is the son of promise! Isaac alone is the son of promise. God promised Abraham he would have a son, so Abraham went about trying to make that happen but nothing occurred having sex with his wife so another woman was used to bring about the promise of God, only God doesn't rely on the works of human flesh and Ishmael was not the son God promised. This is very much like what David did when he was told the man who would build God's house (or temple) would be a man of peace. David, naturally, named his next male child Peace (Solomon = peace). That had nothing to do with the promise God made to build His own house since God does not dwell in houses built by human hands.

It is true the word monogenes was used in the Greco-Roman cultures to refer to an only child, but John is saying much more than that. John's gospel can be read as a (aggressive) repudiation of prevailing philosophies of his time, especially that of old-school and Hellenist Judaism. John opens his gospel referencing Philo (born c. 25 BC), who had written about Alexander the Great as the epitome of divine logos bestowed on humanity, and the great mediator who stood between God and Man. Alexander was only a man. Alexander died. Jesus, in comparison, did not have logos; he is the logos of God. Jesus was with God in the beginning and Jesus is the logos of God that is God, God made flesh. We miss the significance of John's preamble in modernity. In John's day that was a red-hot glowing poker jammed in the eye of the Hellenist Jewish leaders shaken around inside the skull with a trail of loudly proclaimed epithets. Jesus was not a man like Alexander. Jesus was not a man like Caesar. Neither was Jesus a god like Caesar. Jesus came back from the grave, having defeated death and, as a consequence, Alexander and Caesar were going to bow their knee acknowledging Jesus as King and Lord.

Jesus had one source and only one source.

God and God alone was the source of Jesus. God was the source conceptually, redemptively, prophetically, and every other way that mattered.



You can, therefore, see why my position receives dissent. You could take this post to your pastor or elder for consideration but they're not likely to agree. All the protests using individual verses can be addressed but it all boils down to whether or not God used something sinful (Mary*) to provide a means of salvation from sin. Did God use sin to fulfill His Genesis 3:15 promise? I say, "No." Jesus is the last Adam, a reference to another man who was made without a female ovum and without something from a sinful human. I'll leave it to you to decide if this position has any veracity with whole scripture.

Jesus is the one and only son of God and his incarnation has only one source, that of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the son of promise, the promised son who would take away the sin of the world. All the rest of us are adopted.






* The RCC attempted to avoid this problem by teaching Mary was sinless due to a special endowment of grace from God.
.
 
Personally, I take a different approach to this verse and sometimes receive flack for doing so. The word "monogenes" transliterally means single-source or one-origin. The prefix "mono" means one, single, or sole. The word "ginomai" means to to become, to make, assemble, brought to pass, or wrought. What then was the one, single, solitary, sole making of Jesus?
The Holy Spirit.
Matthew 1:18-20
Now the birth of Jesus the Messiah was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be pregnant by the Holy Spirit. And her husband Joseph, since he was a righteous man and did not want to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Conceived by the Holy Spirit alone, not the Holy Spirit plus a fleshly ovum from the sinful virgin Mary. The text has always been understood to preclude a male sperm, but it also precludes a female ovum. This goes against the traditional viewpoint in which Mary contributed an egg, or ovum, and Jesus was half-human and half Spirit in his physical constitution, as a matter of biological conception. Now you can see why dissent is a common response.
Contraire. . .

Jesus, having two natures, was fully human and fully divine.
Theologically speaking, there is a precedent. Isaac is also called monogene and he was not an only son. Abraham had eight sons, one before Isaac was born and six afterwards. Neither was Isaac conceived from only one source. Abram and Sarai had sex, and each contributed something to the conception of Isaac. How then is Isaac an "only begotten," or one-sourced child? Isaac is the son of promise! Isaac alone is the son of promise. God promised Abraham he would have a son, so Abraham went about trying to make that happen but nothing occurred having sex with his wife so another woman was used to bring about the promise of God, only God doesn't rely on the works of human flesh and Ishmael was not the son God promised. This is very much like what David did when he was told the man who would build God's house (or temple) would be a man of peace. David, naturally, named his next male child Peace (Solomon = peace). That had nothing to do with the promise God made to build His own house since God does not dwell in houses built by human hands.

It is true the word monogenes was used in the Greco-Roman cultures to refer to an only child, but John is saying much more than that. John's gospel can be read as a (aggressive) repudiation of prevailing philosophies of his time, especially that of old-school and Hellenist Judaism. John opens his gospel referencing Philo (born c. 25 BC), who had written about Alexander the Great as the epitome of divine logos bestowed on humanity, and the great mediator who stood between God and Man. Alexander was only a man. Alexander died. Jesus, in comparison, did not have logos; he is the logos of God. Jesus was with God in the beginning and Jesus is the logos of God that is God, God made flesh. We miss the significance of John's preamble in modernity. In John's day that was a red-hot glowing poker jammed in the eye of the Hellenist Jewish leaders shaken around inside the skull with a trail of loudly proclaimed epithets. Jesus was not a man like Alexander. Jesus was not a man like Caesar. Neither was Jesus a god like Caesar. Jesus came back from the grave, having defeated death and, as a consequence, Alexander and Caesar were going to bow their knee acknowledging Jesus as King and Lord.

Jesus had one source and only one source.

God and God alone was the source of Jesus. God was the source conceptually, redemptively, prophetically, and every other way that mattered.



You can, therefore, see why my position receives dissent. You could take this post to your pastor or elder for consideration but they're not likely to agree. All the protests using individual verses can be addressed but it all boils down to whether or not God used something sinful (Mary*) to provide a means of salvation from sin. Did God use sin to fulfill His Genesis 3:15 promise? I say, "No." Jesus is the last Adam, a reference to another man who was made without a female ovum and without something from a sinful human. I'll leave it to you to decide if this position has any veracity with whole scripture.

Jesus is the one and only son of God and his incarnation has only one source, that of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus is the son of promise, the promised son who would take away the sin of the world. All the rest of us are adopted.

* The RCC attempted to avoid this problem by teaching Mary was sinless due to a special endowment of grace from God.
You fail to allow for the way God reckons.

God reckons through the father, not the mother.
It's not all about biology, it's also about God's reckoning.
 
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Contraire. . .

Jesus, having two natures, was fully human and fully divine.
Nothing I posted conflicts with that truth, nor should anything I posted ever be construed in such a manner.
You fail to allow for the way God reckons.
Hogwash.

And if you cannot keep your posts about the posts and not about me and what I do or do not fail doing then don't expect further replies.
God reckons through the father, not the mother.
That's Judaism, not scripture, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with what I posted (other than to affirm the Father of Jesus is God).
It's not all about biology, it's also about God's reckoning.
Never said otherwise.


Post #48 was a scripture-less waste of time, effort, and cyberspace that has nothing to do with the substance of Post #47. Are you paying attention @Rescued One? Post 48 is a typical response.
 
Contraire. . .

Jesus, having two natures, was fully human and fully divine.
You fail to allow for the way God reckons.

God reckons through the father, not the mother.
It's not all about biology, it's also about God's reckoning.
Never said otherwise.
Conceived by the Holy Spirit alone, not the Holy Spirit plus a fleshly ovum from the sinful virgin Mary. The text has always been understood to preclude a male sperm, but it also precludes a female ovum. This goes against the traditional viewpoint in which Mary contributed an egg, or ovum, and Jesus was half-human and half Spirit in his physical constitution, as a matter of biological conception. Now you can see why dissent is a common response.
The "traditional" view is not that Jesus was half human and half Spirit.

It is that Jersus was 100% human and 100% divine. . .having [B/two [/B]natures.
 
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The "traditional" view is not that Jesus was half human and half Spirit.
Quote mine.

The traditional viewpoint is Jesus was half huma and half divine IN HIS PHYSICAL CONSTITUTION... because a female ovum was contributed to his physical constitution by Mary.
It is that Jersus was 100% human and 100% divine. . .having [B/two [/B]natures.
Physical constitution and ontology are being confused. Jesus' ontology (his nature) was fully God and fully man was never denied, disputed, or called into question. Edited by Mod: Disrespectful and off topic comment removed.
 
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because a female ovum was contributed to his physical constitution by Mary.
We have no proof that Mary's egg was used. The Spirit could have implanted the embryo and Mary's womb was just an incubator.

Wild speculation: If Mary's egg was used then one could speculate that the sin nature is passed on by the male and not the female.
Wilder Speculation: Assuming the above to be true, if one combined the DNA of two females you might have a being without a
sin nature.

Aside: It's not as if God has to follow the laws of Science

and stop wasting my time.
Hopefully, I didn't waste your time. :):unsure:
 
We have no proof that Mary's egg was used.
I completely agree. However, arguments from silence are to be avoided ;). My position is built first on what scripture states, not on any real or perceived absence of proof.
The Spirit could have implanted the embryo and Mary's womb was just an incubator.
Yep.

Thumbs_up.jpg
Wild speculation: If Mary's egg was used then one could speculate that the sin nature is passed on by the male and not the female.
That would be my position, but more fundamentally, it would also mean God used sin to save from sin. That's a completely different problem, theologically speaking.
Wilder Speculation: Assuming the above to be true, if one combined the DNA of two females you might have a being without a
sin nature.
Only if both females were sinless 🤨. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory, not just the males of the species :).
Aside: It's not as if God has to follow the laws of Science
Correct. If God can make a human from the dust of the earth and also make descendants of Abraham out of rocks, then he can incarnate His Son in the uterus of a female human without following the laws of science He made.
Hopefully, I didn't waste your time. :):unsure:
Au contraire. I hope your post clarifies the matter for those who may not yet have considered such things and that is very much appreciated.
 
Only if both females were sinless 🤨. ALL have sinned and fall short of God's glory, not just the males of the species :).
Well, using my crazy premise that the egg of a woman does not carry the "sin nature" per the theory that Jesus was created using Mary's egg ... All women have sinned because they were created using male sperm but my crazy speculation was to use the genetic material from two women ..... (aside: beyond wild speculation, but entertaining)
 
But then if you say that Jesus Christ was created by God the Father, that goes against the opening of John's gospel:

“1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)
Agreed. It would be safer to say that he proceeds from God, than to say that he was created by God. To proceed from God does not differentiate him from God, but only from the Father as a person --not a separate being.
 
Well, using my crazy premise that the egg of a woman does not carry the "sin nature" per the theory that Jesus was created using Mary's egg ... All women have sinned because they were created using male sperm but my crazy speculation was to use the genetic material from two women ..... (aside: beyond wild speculation, but entertaining)
Using to female ova to make a male child? 🤨 That would be a miracle ;).
 
Quote mine.

The traditional viewpoint is Jesus was half huma and half divine IN HIS PHYSICAL CONSTITUTION... because a female ovum was contributed to his physical constitution by Mary.
Incorrect. . .where do we find this viewpoint?
Physical constitution and ontology are being confused. Jesus' ontology (his nature) was fully God and fully man was never denied, disputed, or called into question. Please read more carefully, think about what is posted, and stop wasting my time. Thanks.
 
Jesus was created differently than any other creature or being that had ever been created by being and existing as literally God himself in a spiritual birth wherein the " Spirit Of Holy " conceived himself in a human mother
Jesus wasn't created. John one says he was with God always and was God always and became flesh. It says in John 1 and other places that the Son who became Jesus in the flesh, was involved in creation----something that a creature of any sort cannot do. (Became, not created.) And if the Holy Spirit conceived himself, and that is Jesus, then it is the Holy Spirit who is the Son and not Jesus.
 
Jesus wasn't created. John one says he was with God always and was God always and became flesh. It says in John 1 and other places that the Son who became Jesus in the flesh, was involved in creation----something that a creature of any sort cannot do. (Became, not created.) And if the Holy Spirit conceived himself, and that is Jesus, then it is the Holy Spirit who is the Son and not Jesus.
His human nature and flesh were created, right?
 
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His human nature and flesh were created, right?
No., That would make him a creature. "He became." "He came as." It is an addition, not a subtraction.
 
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