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Why Are We Here? A Perspective

Arial

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As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?
 
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?
Not to say that your observations are not practical —they definitely are— but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification. Upon reading your last question I'm thinking our yearning is not what is effectual in maturing, though it can be, no doubt, a result of maturing. I can't help but look at my own life. My yearning has to do with being so tired of my sin, and with being rid of it, and with seeing him as he is. It has little to do with actual obedience —that is, unless God uses it for THIS current weak, momentary, decision, then another. It is not my being motivated, not my decision, to do things differently that causes growth.
 
but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification.

Perhaps you should clarify. I'm monergist concerning sanctification but what I mean when I say that is that God gives us the desires and the yearnings which are holy. I don't mean there's nothing we do during sanctification.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Sorry for asking the clarification, I just think it might be helpful to better understand your point.
 
Not to say that your observations are not practical —they definitely are— but I'm a monergist concerning Sanctification —not just Justification. Upon reading your last question I'm thinking our yearning is not what is effectual in maturing, though it can be, no doubt, a result of maturing. I can't help but look at my own life. My yearning has to do with being so tired of my sin, and with being rid of it, and with seeing him as he is. It has little to do with actual obedience —that is, unless God uses it for THIS current weak, momentary, decision, then another. It is not my being motivated, not my decision, to do things differently that causes growth.
I am a monergistic concerning sanctification also. I was not suggesting otherwise. But that does not eliminate human responsibility. My point is, would we view the world and our lives a bit differently if we realized that we are a part of, are living in and living out, the greatest story of all? Redemption. It really had nothing to do with obedience directly.

Though it isn't yet the end of the story, we have been told the end of the story. That is what we are walking towards, just as the ancients were in the story walking towards the same thing. Whether they knew it or not. We know it.
 
Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?


Perhaps you should clarify. I'm monergist concerning sanctification but what I mean when I say that is that God gives us the desires and the yearnings which are holy. I don't mean there's nothing we do during sanctification.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Sorry for asking the clarification, I just think it might be helpful to better understand your point.

This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.

@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!
 
Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?




This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.

@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!
Actually, I wasn't speaking about obedience at all, or us being motivated to increase our obedience.

I was simply pointing out something I thought about on different occasions, one of them this morning because of a thread that @EarlyActs started on the historic aspects of Christianity, as opposed to its being simply a personal relationship with Jesus in the sense that much of the church mistakenly think of that relationship. Which is, it is inward looking and inwardly motivated according to what MacAruthur calls "felt needs".

I was simply sharing something I find awe inspiring that if grasped should, at least in the moment we are pondering it, be awe inspiring. And change the way we look at the world and even our lives. We are living, active, members in the midst of the greatest story of all. Historical figures, living our lives as the redeemed in the middle (or end who knows) of the epic historical progression of the Covenant of Redemption.

The lives of those living in Israel during the Old Covenant, were ordinary, as ordinary as ours. All those wars we read of in the OT, were real wars with tons of back story and inner workings among people, political intrigue, fear, conversations with wives and children, meals cooked, children taught, clothes washed. And most probably had no idea that what they were really doing was playing a role in redemption.
 
Actually, I wasn't speaking about obedience at all, or us being motivated to increase our obedience.

I was simply pointing out something I thought about on different occasions, one of them this morning because of a thread that @EarlyActs started on the historic aspects of Christianity, as opposed to its being simply a personal relationship with Jesus in the sense that much of the church mistakenly think of that relationship. Which is, it is inward looking and inwardly motivated according to what MacAruthur calls "felt needs".

I was simply sharing something I find awe inspiring that if grasped should, at least in the moment we are pondering it, be awe inspiring. And change the way we look at the world and even our lives. We are living, active, members in the midst of the greatest story of all. Historical figures, living our lives as the redeemed in the middle (or end who knows) of the epic historical progression of the Covenant of Redemption.

The lives of those living in Israel during the Old Covenant, were ordinary, as ordinary as ours. All those wars we read of in the OT, were real wars with tons of back story and inner workings among people, political intrigue, fear, conversations with wives and children, meals cooked, children taught, clothes washed. And most probably had no idea that what they were really doing was playing a role in redemption.
AMEN all that! Hard to believe sometimes, that we will in Heaven attribute it all to Christ without a tear in the eye—so often here I am reduced to sobs at thanking him for who he is and what he has done and admiring him for what he is and for his wisdom and purity.
 
AMEN all that! Hard to believe sometimes, that we will in Heaven attribute it all to Christ without a tear in the eye—so often here I am reduced to sobs at thanking him for who he is and what he has done and admiring him for what he is and for his wisdom and purity.
Here is a thought relating to the fact that we are living in the midst of the ongoing plan of redemption established in the Covenant of Redemption. The right now/not yet of it.

In the midst of this fallen world Jesus is gathering his flock, his people. They hear his voice and follow him. When all have been gathered, then he will return.

All those who have been gathered are his representatives, and according to his will in his purpose for each of us in this unfolding drama of gathering.

When we look in our minds at all those who have been gathered, and how God sees us now as wearing the robes of Christ's righteousness; and has us sealed in Christ so that he will lose none who the Father has given him; when our mind wanders over the vast number of individuals of all time, but more concentrated in the now (those who are alive), we can see that each one, in the very fact of their redemption and sealing and purpose, are a glory to God. Not for him, but to him. We are a reflection of his glory and power and goodness---all his attributes--in Christ and only in Christ, just as Adam and Eve were created to be.

And doesn't that then, if even for a moment, in the contemplating, cause your heart to burst with love for each of them?
 
Arial said:
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?




This is one of those situations where the same words in the same sequence can be taken to imply / suggest [at least] two different things, and can be viewed by people of opposite camps as 'truth'. One of the most egregious that we Calvinistic (monergistic) believers run into is those whose worldview seems to us to deny Grace. Some of us, while believing in the grace of God for monergistic Salvation, also consider the subsequent Sanctification of the believer to also be monergistic. While granted, I can see the difference and the importance of the distinction between the monergism of Faith given, vs the monergism of Obedience given, I see it as all still the work of God.

When the Bible says, "...it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.", the Arminian can take it to apply to motivation to bring you to choose to obey, which choosing is the cause of obedience. The Calvinist will say that even that choosing is given by the Spirit of God. I say that even that ability to do, whether chosen or by even sometimes merely finding myself obeying/ preferring to obey 'this time'/ or whatever other description one might want to use, it is so foreign to my bent to sin, that I can only credit it to God. Ha! —Even those words can be accepted by the Arminian, yet their thinking is entirely centered around their actions/willingness toward good and not on the source of all goodness. They even accuse us of denying responsibility.
@Arial spoke in words that the Arminians would happily accept. While she is right, and what she said was well said, the last paragraph/ last sentence speaks in terms of our recognizing that fact giving us the motivation to do what is right. I agree that it does; my comment speaks to the fact that even then, the more wisdom and maturity I gain seems to push me into knowing Christ better, but not into being what is objectively obedient—at least, not according to my conscience and what seems to me empirical evidence. I.e. it is not MY doing that results in obedience, just because I 'finally' (or whatever) realize some fact. I know she did not say it did, but I have a soapbox to stand on, and by golly, I'ma stand on it!
Well, who in their right mind would deny you your soapbox?

Preach away, brother! And I'll pass the collection plate. . .
 
As we grow in knowledge and practice in Christianity, we should come to the awareness that the Bible, from cover to cover, is the eternal Covenant of Redemption with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, taking place in history. It is the epic of God entering into our history to redeem a people from Adam's transgression and in doing so defeat all God's enemies, destroying them once and for all. Bringing about a new creation inhabited by the new creature in Christ, and dwelling among us.

What is likely less realized is that we are in that historical time period of redemption just as much as were Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, David and everyone else of the OT that ever walked the earth. The same holds true for everyone in the NT. Real people, living real lives, just as we are.

True, the NT moves forward from the old, and more has been revealed, and more has taken place. Christ has come, been crucified, risen, and ascended. People are being redeemed in him minute by minute. But the story is not over yet. This is the time (first advent until he returns) when his people are being gathered. sealed, sanctified. We are still living in the history of redemption. Living actors, if you will, on the stage of historical redemption. We are part of the story! We walk and talk in the story. We live in the story.

Every action we take, decision we make, words we speak, thoughts we have, steps we take: they are all a part of the history of redemption. Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?

Hey Arial, could you add some detail? Any of the covenants that we know about through Biblical history (often similar to 'suzerainty treaties' between nations) have a dominant party or victor telling the subject party what they must do, and the subject party declares that they know they must follow it.

How does this express itself in the eternal covenant, which I think is inaugurated before time (Titus 1, etc)?
 
Hey Arial, could you add some detail? Any of the covenants that we know about through Biblical history (often similar to 'suzerainty treaties' between nations) have a dominant party or victor telling the subject party what they must do, and the subject party declares that they know they must follow it.

How does this express itself in the eternal covenant, which I think is inaugurated before time (Titus 1, etc)?
I assume you are asking how it expresses itself within the eternal Covenant of Redemption.

That covenant within and with the Godhead, Father, Son. and Holy Spirit does not involve a greater with a lesser, as do covenants that God makes with men. The three distinct but equally all fully God, persons of the Trinity, are always and completely in agreement as to purpose. The Covenant of Redemption is a covenant because it is an agreement as to the means of redemption of mankind, and through them, of the world, after the fall. The fall was a part of the covenant.

What many fail to take into account is the element of redemption purpose, its ultimate goal, even though we have that revealed to us in Scripture by what Christ did on the cross, and what he will finish when he returns. And that is the utter destruction forever of the serpent (Gen 3:15), which is the promise, and the stated end goal, in that passage; and creation restored from the destruction of the fall.

The Covenant itself, in all its detail as to how it would pay out within history was full known and established before, "In the beginning God---."

The Covenant agreement as to the actions of the three persons is: The Father sends, the Son comes and does the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit applies that work to a person, seals them in Christ, empowers them for whatever purpose God has, indwells them and sanctifies them, conforming them more and more to the image of Christ---through his word and God working in him, Christ returns to fulfill the promises of the resurrection of those he has redeemed, judgement of the devil and all who follow him, the restoration of creation and God dwelling with us.
 
I assume you are asking how it expresses itself within the eternal Covenant of Redemption.

That covenant within and with the Godhead, Father, Son. and Holy Spirit does not involve a greater with a lesser, as do covenants that God makes with men. The three distinct but equally all fully God, persons of the Trinity, are always and completely in agreement as to purpose. The Covenant of Redemption is a covenant because it is an agreement as to the means of redemption of mankind, and through them, of the world, after the fall. The fall was a part of the covenant.

What many fail to take into account is the element of redemption purpose, its ultimate goal, even though we have that revealed to us in Scripture by what Christ did on the cross, and what he will finish when he returns. And that is the utter destruction forever of the serpent (Gen 3:15), which is the promise, and the stated end goal, in that passage; and creation restored from the destruction of the fall.

The Covenant itself, in all its detail as to how it would pay out within history was full known and established before, "In the beginning God---."

The Covenant agreement as to the actions of the three persons is: The Father sends, the Son comes and does the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit applies that work to a person, seals them in Christ, empowers them for whatever purpose God has, indwells them and sanctifies them, conforming them more and more to the image of Christ---through his word and God working in him, Christ returns to fulfill the promises of the resurrection of those he has redeemed, judgement of the devil and all who follow him, the restoration of creation and God dwelling with us.

OK...so why was Christ 'made a covenant for the nations.'? That is, how does that use of the term (and there aren't very many different uses) belong?
 
OK...so why was Christ 'made a covenant for the nations.'? That is, how does that use of the term (and there aren't very many different uses) belong?
That refers to the New Covenant of which Christ is the mediator. The OC and the NC are progressive stages of the whole---The Covenant of Redemption. It is not the CoR itself that was with the Godhead, it is a covenant of the CoR in history that God makes with mankind.
 
Is it possible that if we recognized this at that level, we would find ourselves on occasion, doing things quite differently? Would we yearn more practically for our life to give glory unto God as we participate in his story?
Yes, and yes.

Ephesians 2:10 states we are created in Christ for good works God planned in advance for us to perform. Go about your days this weekend and ask ten randomly selected Christians you know, "For what works were you created in Christ to perform?" or a simpler version, "For what works were you saved?" and count the number who can answer the question. Some will request clarification asking, "What do you mean?" Whether they ask for clarification or not, many will say, "I don't know." Some will provide and answer along the lines of "Obeying scripture," as if obedience is the only works God had planned in advance for those He saves and creates in Christ. If those answering that way are told, "Paul was created (in Christ) to take the gospel to the Gentiles, Peter was saved to take the gospel to the Jews, and Luke was saved to provide a Gentile witness to the work of God in the early Church," some might understand the original inquiry and provide a detailed answer. Few will answer the question with "God created me in Christ specifically to work in the lives of those already saved to serve as a vehicle of healing for those He brings into my life," (or whatever their specific work might be).

A few will say, "I was not created in Christ for works. Works do not save.":( More than might be imagined.

I liken this op's inquiries to the matter of giving. The OT standard was the tithe, or a tenth, the first tenth, of that with which a person was blessed by God. In the NT, our entire life has been purchased by God and the standard is 100%, not 10%, and giving is to be cheerful and generous, based on real need and God's leading of time, talent, and treasure. According to polls, 3% of any given population tithes 3%. Imagine what the Church might look like if 10% gave 10%. That would be a 300+% increase in material wealth and such wealth would demand an increase in time and talent to apply fruitfully as good stewards.

That kind of world will look much different.



For what were you saved and how might the world be changed for Christ is every believer knew the answer to that question and acted accordingly?



The op also prompted me to think about another forum in which I post that has a "vision" board, a place where members can post visions they've had. I often ask for whom that vision was intended or how does the posting member think the vision should be interpreted or understood. I receive a lot of criticism for asking those questions. I receive a lot of blatant rejection for asking those two questions, even from mods who unpack ad hominem and piles of negative attribution. Shouldn't someone know what the visions are about if they came from God? Sometimes these visions blatantly contradict scripture and heaven forbid I should point that out. Aren't visions supposed to be consistent with God's word? Is it not true the Spirit will never contradict the written or incarnate Word? What would the world look like if Christians lived up to these metrics consciously and conscientiously?

We are here to bring God glory but that's pretty general. How, specifically, does God want an individual He saves to glorify Him?
 
Yes, and yes.

Ephesians 2:10 states we are created in Christ for good works God planned in advance for us to perform. Go about your days this weekend and ask ten randomly selected Christians you know, "For what works were you created in Christ to perform?" or a simpler version, "For what works were you saved?" and count the number who can answer the question. Some will request clarification asking, "What do you mean?" Whether they ask for clarification or not, many will say, "I don't know." Some will provide and answer along the lines of "Obeying scripture," as if obedience is the only works God had planned in advance for those He saves and creates in Christ. If those answering that way are told, "Paul was created (in Christ) to take the gospel to the Gentiles, Peter was saved to take the gospel to the Jews, and Luke was saved to provide a Gentile witness to the work of God in the early Church," some might understand the original inquiry and provide a detailed answer. Few will answer the question with "God created me in Christ specifically to work in the lives of those already saved to serve as a vehicle of healing for those He brings into my life," (or whatever their specific work might be).

A few will say, "I was not created in Christ for works. Works do not save.":( More than might be imagined.

I liken this op's inquiries to the matter of giving. The OT standard was the tithe, or a tenth, the first tenth, of that with which a person was blessed by God. In the NT, our entire life has been purchased by God and the standard is 100%, not 10%, and giving is to be cheerful and generous, based on real need and God's leading of time, talent, and treasure. According to polls, 3% of any given population tithes 3%. Imagine what the Church might look like if 10% gave 10%. That would be a 300+% increase in material wealth and such wealth would demand an increase in time and talent to apply fruitfully as good stewards.

That kind of world will look much different.



For what were you saved and how might the world be changed for Christ is every believer knew the answer to that question and acted accordingly?



The op also prompted me to think about another forum in which I post that has a "vision" board, a place where members can post visions they've had. I often ask for whom that vision was intended or how does the posting member think the vision should be interpreted or understood. I receive a lot of criticism for asking those questions. I receive a lot of blatant rejection for asking those two questions, even from mods who unpack ad hominem and piles of negative attribution. Shouldn't someone know what the visions are about if they came from God? Sometimes these visions blatantly contradict scripture and heaven forbid I should point that out. Aren't visions supposed to be consistent with God's word? Is it not true the Spirit will never contradict the written or incarnate Word? What would the world look like if Christians lived up to these metrics consciously and conscientiously?

We are here to bring God glory but that's pretty general. How, specifically, does God want an individual He saves to glorify Him?
Well said.

Let's say, every morning when you get up, get dressed, sit down to your coffee, have breakfast and conversation with your wife, go about the days business, read/watched the news, chatted with a friend or neighbor, you focused on being aware that you were doing all these things right in the midst of history, of the greatest story ever told. That you were living and breathing and moving, in the footsteps of all those we read of in our Bible (in a manner of speaking); a very part of this unfolding of God entering into our history. And that you are doing so as one of those the historical Christ who was historically crucified, and historically raised from the dead as the first fruits of your own future resurrection,one of those who Christ hung on the cross for, your very name in his heart. How would that affect your view and attitude to everything around you?

I haven't been able to actually do that yet. I don't know that anyone can. But even in writing that and knowing that every word is our true state here on earth, there comes from the recognition alone what can only be described as joy. I suspect that if any one could do it, even for just one day, there would not be a cross word spoken, an unflappable peace and good will, full blown fruit of the Spirit.

I have come to understand the truth that our purpose is to glorify God in a way different from how it is usually seen. As though this glorifying is done in praise to him and good works alone. As though the glorifying of God is our actions. I believe the actions are the fruit. We glorify him just by being. We are those he snatched out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the Son he loves. That gives him glory and power unspeakable.
 
I haven't been able to actually do that yet. I don't know that anyone can.
I'm inclined to reply in two ways. The first would be to insert the qualifying word "well," or "thoroughly" into those two sentences because (hopefully) we all do it to some degree great or small, whether we're conscious of our doing so or not. The ability and efficacy are due largely to the fact God is at work in a Christian for that very purpose, so it is happening. We simply may not be aware of it. The second follows from a sound qualifier of the statements because God has stated His understanding of the fact we remain corruptible and His intent not to finish the work on this side of the grave. I cannot explain God's doing so but I do know it is only on the other side of resurrection that we are made immortal and incorruptible, no longer experiencing the rot, decay, of sin. It is as (former) sinners that we are to be consciously, proactively recognizing Whose we are and who were as His, acting accordingly and doing so consciously. Sin blinds. God's revelation reveals. We, therefore, do know Christians who are able to actually do that, and we do know someone who can, beginning with ourselves. Idealism, perfectionism, and a disdain for failure impede both observation and practice. I, for one, consciously endeavor to subdue and rule over the little part of the world God brings my way every day. I know others who do the same. It is both irritating and encouraging to understand the word "little" is operational because the more effective I/we become the larger to portion brought by God to be subdued and the flesh is happy with a little and the pride small victories provide, and the flesh feels inconvenienced over having to grow to meet larger demands.

At the risk of unwillingly providing fodder for digression, I have been thinking "Who will take Charlie Kirk's place and the well-mannered apologist?" All of the members of this forum are apologists. Who among us has thought, "I can do that"? so EVERYONE should understand that solely in the context of this op and not exploit it as an opportunity to derail the op. Learning to stay on topic and not feed our personal agendas at the expense of another's op..... would be an example of what this op describes.
 
@Josheb

I have been looking for our posts in which books were brought up "Far as the Curse is Found" and The Progress of Redemption by Willem Vangemeren. Couldn't find it so I am tagging you here. You said you had this latter book in your library but hadn't read it yet. I had it marked in the former book as a footnote author to get but hadn't yet.

I ordered it and it arrived a couple of days ago. Was actually a signed copy! as I ordered it used.

I am only on page 26 but the wealth of clearly articulated information so far is invaluable. I was also amazed, though I should not have been since even though it is an amazing thing, I well know that the truths of the Bible are revealed to those who continuously seek out the scriptures in search of God; to find many of the things Vangemeren stated and the quotes he gave from Calvin and others, I had come to see already from the scriptures themselves.

Anyway, if you have not started it yet, I think you will really enjoy it when you get to it.
 
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