When does the New Jerusalem come down to earth?

[Red Baker]

Revelation 22:1-21~And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

 

[Red Baker]

I purposely quoted the last two chapters of God's word, so all could read them in their context.

1. Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]
2. Context is the surrounding information that tells us what an author means by individual words, sentences, or paragraphs within a passage. Without grasping the author’s viewpoint and intent, we will face many words and turns of phrase that we will not properly understand. By missing the author’s perspective, we will be confused and misinterpret particular and individual words, sentences, and paragraphs of the work.
3. Context means the weaving together of words and sentences. We must determine the sense of Scripture and not just its sound. We do this by carefully considering the connection that each word, sentence, and section have to those around it. Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, every verse part of a paragraph, every paragraph part of a chapter, every chapter part of a book, and every book is part of the whole Bible. How in the world can we presume to isolate single words and sentences?
4. Again, remember when your own words have been used out of context. A single word, sentence, paragraph, speech, or document was singled out and given a meaning that did not agree with all the words, expressions, tones, circumstances, audience, acts, or facts surrounding it. You were rightly offended, and so is the Lord when we abuse His word!

What saith you that John is speaking about?

I'm indeed a Amill Idealist~yet, I always first read all scripture at face value, or the literal sense, and if the literal sense does not flow with scriptures, then I seek for its true sense IN THE SCRIPTURES of TRUTH.

 

[Eleanor]

Is not ZIon a great city made up of God's elect? There are only two cities in the scriptures of any biblical significance~one is Mystery Babylon the city built by the devil himself; the other Mount Zion, God's holy city made of of his elect.

Mystery Babylon is this world's system that is antichrist in every imaginable way one can think of.

Mount Zion is the city of the Great God! She is also called the New Jerusalem.

Later...RB

And amen brother.

 

[Red Baker]

Revelation 22:1-6~"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

Let us start with these scriptures and work our way backward to Revelation 21.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which is what the book of Revelation is revealing to us~ are truths of future events from the apostles until the end of the world, mostly addressing end time events leading us into the new heaven and new earth where saints shall reign with Christ, world without end.

Revelation is a book using highly symbolic language, that can be interpreted with using other scriptures.

Somethings we cannot speak particularly concerning, since somethings are not revealed to us with clear scriptures, yet overall we do see certain truths clearly.

1st John 3:2~"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not YET appear what we shall be : but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Again:

1st Corinthians 2:9,10~"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."

God has revealed certain truths to us~those we can and will speak of.

In Revelation 22 in the first six verses we have some of those truths revealed to us.

In the world to come~Hebrews 2:5.....according to these scriptures above, we read of a pure river, which had a the tree of life baring twelve manner of fruits ( twelve~ speak of fulness of whatever is under consideration ) which yielded her fruit every month.

What does this mean? In the world to come, we shall enjoy life in its pureness and fullness, a life of perfect peace, joy, happiness and contentment that shall never be lacking, a constant flow of life at its very best~a life that has never entered into the heart of man that could even be in existence.

In this life we shall possess full understanding of all things~the Lord God giveth them light. We shall then KNOW even as we are now known.

We have full assurance of this life~with these words: These saying ARE faithful and true!

 

[Hobie]

If the last few chapters of Revelation are taken chronologically then the new city of peace comes down long after the 1000 years has come and gone, and only after satan, death, and all the Christ-deniers are tossed in the fiery lake so deadly even death is destroyed.

Therefore, it's not something with which we need to concern ourselves at the expense of all else we're called to accomplish before that happens.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Those who do not perform the good works for which we have been created in Christ are not fulfilling the purpose for which we have been saved. I question whether waiting is a good work or a good non-work .

Yes, the New Earth and the New Heaven will come after the 1000 years that Satan is left here on the desolated earth, and the Bible is clear this will happen.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:10-14
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

As you see, the new heaven and the new earth" is shown not just as an aside, but four times to describe the future home of the redeemed.
In Isaiah we see not only a promise for the last days: "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth;" but also a another thing that is made plain in other verses, "and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind"

Then in 2 Peter we also see this new creation will come in connection with end-time events: "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up." and "according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." Then in Revelation we see John in the last two chapters explains the establishment of the new heavens and the new earth.

This is the future home of the saints how God wanted, as we see from the beginning with the creation of the earth and the Bible shows the disruption of God's purpose by the entrance of sin. And now the Bible closes with the destruction of sin, the restoration of what God intended, and the establishment of the new heaven and the new earth. So this is how after the 1000 years of desolation, the saints will spend eternity with God in His New Jerusalem.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, the New Earth and the New Heaven will come after the 1000 years that Satan is left here on the desolated earth, and the Bible is clear this will happen.

It is true there is a new heaven and earth, but it is not true satan is left on the desolated earth and the implication there are two earth, one desolated and the other new is incorrect. There are not two earths and two heavens, one pair old and desolate and the other new and not desolate. Furthermore, satan gets tossed in a fiery lake, not left on earth.

And the interpretation of the rest of the post is also incorrect.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 66:22
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2 Peter 3:10-14
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

Revelation 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

As you see, the new heaven and the new earth" is shown not just as an aside, but four times to describe the future home of the redeemed.

The problem is not what scripture says. The problem is your selective use of scripture. Revelation also states the new city comes down out of heaven to earth, and nowhere in scripture are two earths reported. The new earth is a restored and/or renewed earth, not an entirely different planet altogether.

You even say so in the title of this op!

 

[donadams]

What we need to do is remember context~that's what drives our understanding of what is being spoken. Before I start addressing Revelation 21,22~We must remember.................

Interpretations must agree with their context.​

We must remember this law: A text used out of context is a pretext. We cannot violate it; we must learn to spot it.

1. A text is a word, clause, verse, paragraph, chapter, or book you are seeking to interpret.
2. Context is the surrounding information, which shows the author’s meaning by the text.
3. Out of context is using words and their sound contrary to the surrounding information.
4. A pretext is a false and incorrect impression designed to hide or disguise the real intent.
5. Using a verse contrary to its context gives a misleading and deceitful sound of words to teach something the author did not intend and/or is not true. We must reject this abuse of words!
6. You have had your words used out of context before, and you hated the corruption of your intent and meaning. We must make sure we never do it with the precious Word of God.
7. This rule applies to all writings and conversations of every sort, and so context is well understood by most people. Contracts, court records, novels, promises, and poetry are all understood in context, or surrounding information, to truly understand their meaning.
8. Even single words are meaningless without a context, which is why we asked our teacher to use them in a sentence before we would try to spell them in a spelling bee!
9. Even if you use a verse to teach a true point, make sure we still honor its context. For using the wrong verse to teach the right point is the first subtle step to heresy. Mark it! What is context? Let us make sure we understand exactly what we mean by context
10. Context. The whole structure of a connected passage regarded in its bearing upon any of the parts which constitute it; the parts which immediately precede or follow any particular passage or ‘text’ and determine its meaning. [OED]
11. Context is the surrounding information that tells us what an author means by individual words, sentences, or paragraphs within a passage. Without grasping the author’s viewpoint and intent, we will face many words and turns of phrase that we will not properly understand. By missing the author’s perspective, we will be confused and misinterpret particular and individual words, sentences, and paragraphs of the work.
12. Context means the weaving together of words and sentences. We must determine the sense of Scripture and not just its sound. We do this by carefully considering the connection that each word, sentence, and section have to those around it. Every word in the Bible is part of a verse, every verse part of a paragraph, every paragraph part of a chapter, every chapter part of a book, and every book is part of the whole Bible. How in the world can we presume to isolate single words and sentences?
13. Again, remember when your own words have been used out of context. A single word, sentence, paragraph, speech, or document was singled out and given a meaning that did not agree with all the words, expressions, tones, circumstances, audience, acts, or facts surrounding it. You were rightly offended, and so is the Lord when we abuse His word!
14. Now, we shall return later and prove that Revelation 21,22 is the church in her final, eternal glorified state, having the glory of God described to us by using highly symbolic language!

How can there even be an interpretation?

If scripture is the only authority, then there cannot be any other authority to give an authentic interpretation.


Are we really just Relying on our own private judgement of scripture?

Instead of Christ the light of the world, and the way, the truth, and the Life!

And Christ and His church are one unity in all truth and grace!

Really we are just believing in our own private fallible judgment!

When Christ established the church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Christians must be taught or instructed by the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church! Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19, Lk 10:16, Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31, Colossians 2:7

Our understanding, study, interpretation, judgment, are all adding to scripture!

Our reason is part of fallen human nature and is defective.
Our holy religion is revealed by God!

Truth known by “hearing” the apostles not the “Bible alone”!

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The apostles in person:

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Doctrine of the apostles: acts 2:42

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Matt 5:14 the apostles are the light of the world until Christ returns in glory!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Thanks

 

[donadams]

The new Jerusalem came two thousand years ago
The new covenant church!

Thanks

 

[Marilyn C]

The new Jerusalem came two thousand years ago
The new covenant church!

Thanks

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

And there we read of the city, the New Jerusalem still in heaven.

 

[Red Baker]

The new Jerusalem came two thousand years ago
The new covenant church!

Thanks

Prove it, saying something proves nothing, and me telling you you are in dark prove nothing, we both must prove our teachings with scriptures, the testimony of God.

Posts #22, 24 prove that they are against God's testimony of truth.

 

[Red Baker]

How can there even be an interpretation?

If scripture is the only authority, then there cannot be any other authority to give an authentic interpretation.

Because scriptures interpret scriptures! With here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.

Isaiah 28:13~"But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Because the true church ( God's very elect ) use only the scriptures, they do not add traditions and teachings of men who think they are God's voice upon the earth, and they have the right to change anything at anytime.

Thanks

No problem, that what the church is here for!

 

[CrowCross]

When does the New Jerusalem come down to earth?​

I see it this way...

Birth pangs (where we currently are)
Rapture
Tribulation
Marriage supper.
Christ returns on a white horse and conquerers .
1000 year reign.
New Jerusalem comes to earth.
Eternity.

 

[CrowCross]

The new Jerusalem came two thousand years ago
The new covenant church!

Thanks

16The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.d Its length and width and height are equal.

Where have we seen a city that's 1380 miles square?

Just curious as to what people do with this description.

 

[Red Baker]

When does the New Jerusalem come down to earth?​

When this world is destroyed by fire and then the New earth and heaven are created~which will follow after the Great White Throne Judgement.

 

[donadams]

`But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, to God the judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus...` (Heb. 12: 22 - 24)

And there we read of the city, the New Jerusalem still in heaven.

Even in earth it is the heavenly Jerusalem

 

[donadams]

Prove it, saying something proves nothing, and me telling you you are in dark prove nothing, we both must prove our teachings with scriptures, the testimony of God.

Posts #22, 24 prove that they are against God's testimony of truth.

New covenant church is the new Jerusalem “our mother”!

Gal 422 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

 

[donadams]

Because scriptures interpret scriptures! With here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.




Because the true church ( God's very elect ) use only the scriptures, they do not add traditions and teachings of men who think they are God's voice upon the earth, and they have the right to change anything at anytime.


No problem, that what the church is here for!

What is your understanding of tradition?

 

[donadams]

Because scriptures interpret scriptures! With here a little, there a little, line upon line, precept upon precept.




Because the true church ( God's very elect ) use only the scriptures, they do not add traditions and teachings of men who think they are God's voice upon the earth, and they have the right to change anything at anytime.


No problem, that what the church is here for!

Does Isaiah have authority or only what He writes?

 

[donadams]

16The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia.d Its length and width and height are equal.

Where have we seen a city that's 1380 miles square?

Just curious as to what people do with this description.

The book of revelation is mostly symbolic and metaphorical not literal

 

[CrowCross]

The book of revelation is mostly symbolic and metaphorical not literal

I'm glad you used "mostly"...as much of it is literal.

Are you saying a 1380 square mile city couldn't come down from heaven?