When Did Satan Had Actually Fallen?

[ChristB4us]

I believe Satan had fallen in the Garden of Eden for tempting Adam & Eve.

Look at his introduction;

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

I do not see any indication of the scripture identifying that serpent, the devil, Satan, as having fallen or being cursed or evil, but I can see what led to his fall by pointing out that he was more subtil than any beats of the field.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

So when God cursed the serpent, this was for the very first time while prophesying for the promised seed to save mankind.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Now people will contend that Satan fell from Heaven but currently, he is accusing the brethren until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when he will be kicked out so we can enjoy the festivities with the Bridegroom.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So Satan fell from that kingdom of Heaven that had included all of creation just as Adam & Eve did, in that very Garden of Eden, but one day, a new heaven & a new earth will come & the kingdom of Heaven will be completed after the Great White Throne Judgment before Jesus Christ hands it back to the Father for when we will never be separated from God and all that is good by sin ever again.
Those who apply Isaiah 14:12 of "Lucifer" being the original name for Satan, should know that Lucifer is not found in any of the Greek documents but was borrowed from the Latin Vulgate which was a footnote, a reference to the planet Venus, that "son of the morning".

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

If you read verse 11 & 13, in context, this was about a mortal king on earth, a braggart, no less, that was to die and his corpse unburied for exalting himself in the eyes of men and God and so that was not about Satan, that serpent, at all. You can safely conclude that Lucifer was never the original name for Satan.

And you can ask Jesus for confirmation in His words that Satan did indeed fell in that day when Adam and Eve had fallen in that Garden of Eden.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe Satan had fallen in the Garden of Eden for tempting Adam & Eve.

Look at his introduction;

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

I do not see any indication of the scripture identifying that serpent, the devil, Satan, as having fallen or being cursed or evil, but I can see what led to his fall by pointing out that he was more subtil than any beats of the field.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

So when God cursed the serpent, this was for the very first time while prophesying for the promised seed to save mankind.

Genesis 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Now people will contend that Satan fell from Heaven but currently, he is accusing the brethren until the pre great tribulation rapture event for when he will be kicked out so we can enjoy the festivities with the Bridegroom.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
So Satan fell from that kingdom of Heaven that had included all of creation just as Adam & Eve did, in that very Garden of Eden, but one day, a new heaven & a new earth will come & the kingdom of Heaven will be completed after the Great White Throne Judgment before Jesus Christ hands it back to the Father for when we will never be separated from God and all that is good by sin ever again.
Those who apply Isaiah 14:12 of "Lucifer" being the original name for Satan, should know that Lucifer is not found in any of the Greek documents but was borrowed from the Latin Vulgate which was a footnote, a reference to the planet Venus, that "son of the morning".

Isaiah 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

If you read verse 11 & 13, in context, this was about a mortal king on earth, a braggart, no less, that was to die and his corpse unburied for exalting himself in the eyes of men and God and so that was not about Satan, that serpent, at all. You can safely conclude that Lucifer was never the original name for Satan.

And you can ask Jesus for confirmation in His words that Satan did indeed fell in that day when Adam and Eve had fallen in that Garden of Eden.

Ezekiel 28:13 speaks of the king of Tyre who was a type of Satan walking in the garden of Eden in an unfallen state.

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

I also see the angels which would include "Satan" watching the earth being formed...
Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ----> 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Satan and the angels fell after creation as well as after day 6...as everything was created very good. Gen 1:31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

 

[ChristB4us]

Ezekiel 28:13 speaks of the king of Tyre who was a type of Satan walking in the garden of Eden in an unfallen state.

You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.

I also see the angels which would include "Satan" watching the earth being formed...
Job 38:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ----> 7 while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Satan and the angels fell after creation as well as after day 6...as everything was created very good. Gen 1:31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

Actually, Job 38:4 is God reminding Job how he was with the sons of God singing about the wonders of His creation, even though he and they, were not there when He laid the foundation of the earth.

Kind of like these Psalms here

Psalm 102:25Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

Psalm 104:5Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

If you recall, when the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord, and twice Satan came among them, God pointed out Job TWICE yet again because Job was among the sons of God and that is why the reference "sons of God" is about Israeli's roots.

Now believers in Jesus Christ are the sons of God rather than by Abraham's bloodline or by Judaism.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Hebrew word for son is "ben" which is the builder of the family name. Angels were not created to reproduce and so neither fallen angels were suddenly able to reproduce just because they were fallen.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

That is why I see the term "sons of God" is a reference to a godly lineage of Seth, then Abraham's lineage and now Christ's.

 

[CrowCross]

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

I find this very weak. All it says is that the angels don't marry in heaven. People then stretch it to say they don't have the ability to procreate. That is an addition to the thought presented in verse 30 which only says they are not given in marriage.....in heaven.

 

[ChristB4us]

I find this very weak. All it says is that the angels don't marry in heaven. People then stretch it to say they don't have the ability to procreate. That is an addition to the thought presented in verse 30 which only says they are not given in marriage.....in heaven.

I do not see heaven is how and why the angels were not marrying.

Plus, we, the firstfruits, will be like the angels that never marry and never die and so hence not really referring to heaven for how we will be that way but like the angels per that resurrection.

it is not like when we are resurrected and when we are in Heaven that is when we will not be marrying nor dying any more.

If we are resurrected from the grave as well as the living changed in a twinkling of an eye, where are we at that time but on earth for when Christ comes to receive us and so that is the way He will resurrect us and that is the way the angels were made as being in heaven has nothing to do with it.

 

[CrowCross]

I do not see heaven is how and why the angels were not marrying.

Not saying they are...but the bible presents angels as males. I don't see marriage as permissible to God in that circumstance.

Plus, we, the firstfruits, will be like the angels that never marry and never die and so hence not really referring to heaven for how we will be that way but like the angels per that resurrection.

it is not like when we are resurrected and when we are in Heaven that is when we will not be marrying nor dying any more.

If we are resurrected from the grave as well as the living changed in a twinkling of an eye, where are we at that time but on earth for when Christ comes to receive us and so that is the way He will resurrect us and that is the way the angels were made as being in heaven has nothing to do with it.

Angels are a bit more than you think.

 

[ChristB4us]

Not saying they are...but the bible presents angels as males. I don't see marriage as permissible to God in that circumstance.

Angels are a bit more than you think.

You should consider proving that assertation with scripture or provide something that would even infer that without going against the truths in other scriptures so as to be rightly dividing the word of truth.

You did that before by bringing in other verses in that one chapter in proving it as a prophetic saying that ha snot happened yet and so all I am asking is to prove that assertation by the scriptures because what I am reading in the scriptures would dispel such a notion.

As it is, with the two scriptural references below, I am not seeing any wiggle room that angels were created to reproduce at all.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
AND

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Otherwise, that would be the same as saying that since their first estate is not established as ones that never marry and can never die, then where is the assurance of our salvation?

Granted, the fallen angels left their "first estate" as no longer being citizens of Heaven, but they still cannot marry and neither can they die for this is why they will burn forever in that lake of fire.

 

[CrowCross]

As it is, with the two scriptural references below, I am not seeing any wiggle room that angels were created to reproduce at all.

Well, I see Job identifying angels as "sons of God". I see "sons of God" presented in Gen 6.

In see there is offspring between the sons of God and human women. Based on Job description of angels as being sons of God ....the angels has offspring with human women.

If it was Seths descendants or Cains descendants ...why have (nephilim) giants? Why not have regular people? That's what people do. It makes no sense it was a human to human relationship.

Next we can move into Jude and Peter....where we read

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Why did the Angels do? Gen 6 tells us.

Now, as for angels they do have a corporal form. They could eat, drink, grab you, speak, hear, wear clothing, hold things, be seen in human like form and other things you need a body for. So, why could they not have offspring with humans?

Now, if you want to dive deeper there are books mentioned in the bible. Books quoted by several authors of scripture. Portions of these books that Jesus used.....now they might not be what some consider as "inspired".....but the bible does bring them up. Why?

One of these books is the Book of Enoch....The Enoch who was 7th from Adam....and Enoch had a lot to say on the subject of Gen 6.

But, just to dismiss the angels having children with human women because angels don't get married in heaven....is not enough to dismiss Gen 6.

 

[Mr GLee]

I do not see any indication of the scripture identifying that serpent, the devil, Satan, as having fallen or being cursed or evil, but I can see what led to his fall by pointing out that he was more subtil than any beats of the field.

One thing I thought of is the use of phrase walk by faith . .the mutually understanding of two walking in a agreement A few Parable use the word walk that way the power of the gospel giving legs to understand . on your belly cut of the legs of the serpent needed to commune with God

 

[makesends]

Well, I see Job identifying angels as "sons of God". I see "sons of God" presented in Gen 6.

In see there is offspring between the sons of God and human women. Based on Job description of angels as being sons of God ....the angels has offspring with human women.

If it was Seths descendants or Cains descendants ...why have (nephilim) giants? Why not have regular people? That's what people do. It makes no sense it was a human to human relationship.

Next we can move into Jude and Peter....where we read

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Why did the Angels do? Gen 6 tells us.

Now, as for angels they do have a corporal form. They could eat, drink, grab you, speak, hear, wear clothing, hold things, be seen in human like form and other things you need a body for. So, why could they not have offspring with humans?

Now, if you want to dive deeper there are books mentioned in the bible. Books quoted by several authors of scripture. Portions of these books that Jesus used.....now they might not be what some consider as "inspired".....but the bible does bring them up. Why?

One of these books is the Book of Enoch....The Enoch who was 7th from Adam....and Enoch had a lot to say on the subject of Gen 6.

But, just to dismiss the angels having children with human women because angels don't get married in heaven....is not enough to dismiss Gen 6.

Language generally relegates things to words of masculine gender. Not male. Males are only one thing that are masculine. That a word is masculine does not mean male. This includes nouns and pronouns both, not to mention their modifiers. Some languages don't even have a neuter form.

That angels that appeared as men, may well have appeared as men, though I'm guessing that was, for one reason, because men are generally in Bible times accepted as having more authority than women. There may be other implications, too, but we don't really know much about angels.

 

[CrowCross]

Language generally relegates things to words of masculine gender. Not male. Males are only one thing that are masculine. That a word is masculine does not mean male. This includes nouns and pronouns both, not to mention their modifiers. Some languages don't even have a neuter form.

That angels that appeared as men, may well have appeared as men, though I'm guessing that was, for one reason, because men are generally in Bible times accepted as having more authority than women. There may be other implications, too, but we don't really know much about angels.

They seem like men to me
Gen 19: 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

 

[makesends]

They seem like men to me
Gen 19: 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

Yes. Would you have expected them to appear as women? That doesn't quite seem suitable. But appearing as men doesn't make them male.

And I don't mean that they are neuter either. I just see no reason to assume they are sex-endowed one way or the other.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Greek Angelos translated into English "sent messenger" are the apostles just as the Hebrew word mal'ach. "sent messengers"

Angel a fake word. Sounds the same completely different meaning. Coined hundreds of years after the completion of the word of God .

Satan the king of lying sign to wonder after as false prophecy. He would have people talking to themselves without a Bluetooth . Like the old days . LOL

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

How would a person entertain something they cannot see? Sounds to me like the Twilight Zone, Outer Limits

 

[ChristB4us]

Well, I see Job identifying angels as "sons of God".

I do not see Job identifying angels as the sons of God at all when the two times the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord in that Book of Job, God pointed out Job to Satan because Job was one of the sons of God.

So the problem verse in Job is not aligning with those two accounts other than to point out to Job how he was among the sons of God praising God in His wonders of creation even though Job was not there and neither was any of the other sons of God when God did it.

I see "sons of God" presented in Gen 6.

I see sons of God in Genesis 6 as the godly lineage of Seth.

In see there is offspring between the sons of God and human women. Based on Job description of angels as being sons of God ....the angels has offspring with human women.

Forget that misapplication in Job and look at the results of this union which are men, mighty men and men of renown but still men. What does the book of Enoch testify of? "Spirits" being the results and so therefore a lie.

Jesus said this:

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Coupled with....

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
AND

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:

35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So if Jesus says God does not marry angels in His time nor in that future resurrection state of believers, then God did not marry them back then neither.

If it was Seths descendants or Cains descendants ...why have (nephilim) giants? Why not have regular people? That's what people do. It makes no sense it was a human to human relationship.

Genesis 6:1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Again, the result of the union is man, mighty men, men of renown, giants even, but still men. Note His judgment was on man and not some hybrid mixed beings of man and demons ( which should tell you that if God does not marry angels, then neither would He marry fallen angels let alone call them the sons of God in His words.

Next we can move into Jude and Peter....where we read

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day
2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Why did the Angels do? Gen 6 tells us.

Now, as for angels they do have a corporal form. They could eat, drink, grab you, speak, hear, wear clothing, hold things, be seen in human like form and other things you need a body for. So, why could they not have offspring with humans?

Now, if you want to dive deeper there are books mentioned in the bible. Books quoted by several authors of scripture. Portions of these books that Jesus used.....now they might not be what some consider as "inspired".....but the bible does bring them up. Why?

One of these books is the Book of Enoch....The Enoch who was 7th from Adam....and Enoch had a lot to say on the subject of Gen 6.

But, just to dismiss the angels having children with human women because angels don't get married in heaven....is not enough to dismiss Gen 6.

His words about angels not marrying nor given in marriage should be enough.

Think about it. Do you believe God is uniting same sex couples? do you believe God is uniting human beings with their favorite animal in "holy matrimony"? No.

So why believe that God would unite angels, let alone fallen angels for women to be called "wives" to them in His words?

God commanded man to multiply; not angels, let alone fallen ones.

Can man reproduce with a horse in creating a hybrid called centaurs? No. What prevents that? His word.

You are not going to find it credible for God to unite something that was never intended to be united in holy matrimony for any woman to be called a wife to that which is not man.

Is there unrighteousness with God? Would He join something in an unholy matrimony for that woman to be called a wife in His word? No.

Ditched the Book of Enoch because it is a fraud.

In Chapter 18 of the Book of Enoch, are certain aspects of creation being tormented but in the "third Heaven" for not coming out into existence when God called them.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So you have to do a lot of compromises in His words to make the Book of Enoch scripture when it is not.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes. Would you have expected them to appear as women? That doesn't quite seem suitable. But appearing as men doesn't make them male.

And I don't mean that they are neuter either. I just see no reason to assume they are sex-endowed one way or the other.

Why would they not be "sex-endowed"?

Do you think angels are "shape shifters"? Can they appear as Big Foot? Are they pure spirit that can take on a human form while they may look like humans if you waved your hand around them your hand would pass right through them?

 

[CrowCross]

I do not see Job identifying angels as the sons of God at all when the two times the sons of God presented themselves to the Lord in that Book of Job, God pointed out Job to Satan because Job was one of the sons of God.

Job tells us....When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy. These "beings" watch God form the earth. .......
4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. That's what Job says.

Were humans present when God formed the earth? We all know that answer was no. So, who were they?

 

[makesends]

Why would they not be "sex-endowed"?

Why would they be? Did God intend them to procreate?

Do you think angels are "shape shifters"? Can they appear as Big Foot? Are they pure spirit that can take on a human form while they may look like humans if you waved your hand around them your hand would pass right through them?

Pure Spirit may well be just another form of physical, but not material (or maybe change those two words around). There may be something to that —I think we will have these same bodies in Heaven, but glorified.

Regardless, they can appear as whatever God wants them to appear as.

 

[CrowCross]

Why would they be? Did God intend them to procreate?

Pure Spirit may well be just another form of physical, but not material (or maybe change those two words around). There may be something to that —I think we will have these same bodies in Heaven, but glorified.

Regardless, they can appear as whatever God wants them to appear as.

What you are now doing is "speculating" then using that speculation to tell us Gen 6 isn't fallen angels procreating with the daughters of men.

 

[makesends]

What you are now doing is "speculating" then using that speculation to tell us Gen 6 isn't fallen angels procreating with the daughters of men.

Can you say you are not assuming when you tell us Gen 6 is fallen angels procreating with the daughters of men? I agree it is possible, but I will not teach it as fact. We simply do not know. Meanwhile, I see no good reason to assume they are sexually endowed.

 

[CrowCross]

Can you say you are not assuming when you tell us Gen 6 is fallen angels procreating with the daughters of men? I agree it is possible, but I will not teach it as fact. We simply do not know. Meanwhile, I see no good reason to assume they are sexually endowed.

Can I teach it as fact? I would say, probably. Can I be 100% sure? Not really.

I can also present the book of Enoch...from which the bible quotes time to time. The book from which Jesus expands on some of the topics.

I can also point to the Nephilim giants in the bible. I can also point to giants in archeology. Where did this giant genetic information come from?