What will we take to heaven....?

[QVQ]

I am a bit wary of Revelation as I study on my own,
These things have not come to pass so it is speculation or would be on my sole lonesome.
I would say I am somewhat familar with the various schools but I follow along without going beyond the Creed

So, I do have but don't have an end time point of view.

I am more concerned what the Bible means and how to apply it in the present.

 

[Josheb]

So, I do have but don't have an end time point of view.

Thank you for the answer to the question asked.

I am more concerned what the Bible means and how to apply it in the present.

That is not evident in this conversation. Several pairs of posts contradict one another, questions have to be asked multiple times before they get answered, and the use of hyperbole is denied (see HERE and HERE also) The Bible did not teach you to contradict yourself, delay inquiries or obfuscate answers, and it most definitely did not teach you to deny its content.


The reason I chose the word "near" in Revelation 1:13 is because if the word is read literally then most of the prophetic content in Revelation would have to occur near in time to when John wrote the book. That would be the literal reading of the verse. That would be the literal reading of the word using its denotative meaning. If you do not read the verse that way then you have a lot of company, but you have also contradicted yourself. The meaning of the word has to be changed radically if it is going to be made to man far. Near is not far. Near is never far. It does not matter what the metrics of measure are, near is never far. Furthermore, if you examine God's use of the word "near" in the New Testament, He never uses the word "near" to mean far. Never. So, reading the word "near" to mean far is not just a radically different meaning of the word, it is also a radically different meaning of the word that is in direct contradiction to the way God always used the word in the New Testament.

If and when you read commentaries on Revelation, you will notice most authors ignore the verse (or they make "near" mean something other than near). Therefore, if you are going to apply the Bible, and not the opinions of theologians, you're going to have to be consistent with your reading of the Bible.

 

[QVQ]

The reason I chose the word "near" in Revelation 1:13 is because if the word is read literally then most of the prophetic content in Revelation would have to occur near in time to when John wrote the book. That would be the literal reading of the verse. That would be the literal reading of the word using its denotative meaning.

You do not read or understand my posts.
2 Peter 3: 8-9 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
"Near" is a relative term, literally. It means the proximity in time and/or space of two points.
It could be any amount of the time and space depending on the relative position of the two objects and the postion of the observer.

John's position as observer is human waiting for the steak timer to go off (5 min is an eternity)
Gods position as observer is all of eternity.

and the use of hyperbole is denied

Then you are saying that God lies
If God exaggerates maybe about the battle at Gideon and the sun didn't really stand still
Then what about the three days in the tomb?
Is that an exaggeration or hyperbole. Maybe Jesus wasn't really dead?

When you take those tools such as hyperbole, metaphor, allegory I have to ask why you don't go cut up Darwin's Theory of Evolution, labeling every paragraph as hyperbole, metaphor, allegory, simili sort out the entire book as literary devices and figures of speech that are the tools of dissecting literary fiction.
Better yet, if you like those tools for dissecting fiction, go analyze the Betty Crocker Cook Book for hyperbole or allegory
Why Not? Because you accept Darwin and Betty as the Absolute Literal Truth
Shows what you actually think of the Bible, aye?

The Bible is the literal truth. And I have fought these useless battles with my parents for years.
The dragon in Revelation is allegory, Says Mom.
Ok mom, literary device, I can see that
AH HAH Says Mom, you just admitted that the dragon is allegory, therefore Satan is also and Christ right along with them. In fact, the entire book is allegory, Useful fiction."

Now don't AH HAh me as you ain't half near quick or clever as mom.

 

[Josheb]

You do not read or understand my posts.

You do not get to tell me about me.

Let me express my regret because I meant to communicate we're done with this conversation because it's reached its conclusion. The conversation was off topic from its inception, but I thought perhaps you might recognize some of your own inconsistencies if given the opportunity to post further. That did not happen. It is my hope that the next time we trade posts that, at a minimum, questions asked will be answered in a direct and timely manner and comments about other posters' faculties will be kept to oneself. Do pick up some resources on examining scripture. I want you to be better at it.

 

[QVQ]

but I thought perhaps you might recognize some of your own inconsistencies

I have wondered for while exactly what the point of the conversation was from your point of view.
If it is merely to "recognize your own inconsistencies" it is only about telling me about me.
I thought perhaps you would expand on your assertion that the end times were gradual or about the current state of the signs of those times.
My hopes are dashed.
Perhaps in the future we can trade views on scripture without tangenitals into literary devices and what literal literally means.
See you around the forum...

 

[Josheb]

I have wondered for while exactly what the point of the conversation was from your point of view.

You started it. Only you can answer that question. Ask yourself, "What did I hope to achieve by questioning God's use of hyperbole?"

 

[QVQ]

You started it. Only you can answer that question. Ask yourself, "What did I hope to achieve by questioning God's use of hyperbole?"

Here we go again...Let us leave hyperbole and literal off the table. The meaning of "literal" to me, I posted in #114
Meanwhile, you started it...because
What I am wondering is, the word "near"
I am a bit intrigued by what I thought you said about the End Time being gradual
And that discussion got lost in arguing about semantics, the literal definition of "near."

I can see there is an argument to be made the End Time starting at the time of that verse...."near"
If the End Time started "near" in the meaning you are giving the word, then would it really make a difference because the time between the writing of that verse and the 2nd Coming is not near to anyone who is watching the earthly clock
Would it make any material difference?

Am I correct in interpreting your earlier post as a "gradual." It seems a bit odd as we normally associate end time with a bang or a short span of terrible tribulation.

 

[Josheb]

Here we go again...Let us leave hyperbole and literal off the table. The meaning of "literal" to me, I posted in #114
Meanwhile, you started it...because
What I am wondering is, the word "near"
I am a bit intrigued by what I thought you said about the End Time being gradual
And that discussion got lost in arguing about semantics, the literal definition of "near."

I can see there is an argument to be made the End Time starting at the time of that verse...."near"
If the End Time started "near" in the meaning you are giving the word, then would it really make a difference because the time between the writing of that verse and the 2nd Coming is not near to anyone who is watching the earthly clock
Would it make any material difference?

Am I correct in interpreting your earlier post as a "gradual." It seems a bit odd as we normally associate end time with a bang or a short span of terrible tribulation.

Not interested.

 

[QVQ]

Only you can answer that question. Ask yourself, "What did I hope to achieve by questioning God's use of hyperbole?"

The claim that God uses hyperbole and the Bible is allegorical is a favorite tool of the atheist.
If an atheist can get a person to admit the dragon in Revelations is a representation of an idea, allegory then Satan is an allegory, merely a representation of an idea rather than a literal being. Then the Bible is allegorical, useful fiction.
If God uses hyperbole in the Battle of Gibean, the sun stood still then the entire Bible is open to the same scrutiny.
I have explained that a bit more forcefully in earlier post

My answer is that every Word of the Bible is the literal truth.
I wasn't at Gibean so I leave it alone.
The Battle of Crecy, I have always questioned the reported casualties as hyperbole, exaggeration, boastfulness, gloating or out right lies.
But I wasn't at Crecy, and frankly not interested, so I leave it alone.

Now that is the answer to the question.
Hereafter I am not interested