What is the supernatural virtue of hope?

[donadams]

What good is the supernatural virtue of hope?

Does the “false doctrine” of eternal security reject the virtue of Hope?

Thanks

 

[CrowCross]

What good is the supernatural virtue of hope?

Does the “false doctrine” of eternal security reject the virtue of Hope?

Thanks

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

[donadams]

John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Does that mean you are saved?

 

[CrowCross]

Does that mean you are saved?

If you have been given eternal life and no one can snatch you from the Fathers or Jesus hand....absolutely.

 

[donadams]

If you have been given eternal life and no one can snatch you from the Fathers or Jesus hand....absolutely.

It only refers to the life of God in us (grace) and yes someone can “you can”!

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Jn 3:16 Jn 15:1-5 must choose to believe and abide to the end Matt 24:13

 

[CrowCross]

It only refers to the life of God in us (grace) and yes someone can “you can”!

You can? How's that?

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Why would a believer deny Jesus??????

Jn 3:16 Jn 15:1-5 must choose to believe and abide to the end Matt 24:13

...."abide to the end"...that means works sustains ones salvation??? You sure about that?

Sheeze, facebook give a person a couple of strikes then they ban them....how many strikes does God give you before He bans you from eternal life?

 

[donadams]

You can? How's that?

Why would a believer deny Jesus??????

...."abide to the end"...that means works sustains ones salvation??? You sure about that?

Sheeze, facebook give a person a couple of strikes then they ban them....how many strikes does God give you before He bans you from eternal life?

7 times 70 times

 

[CrowCross]

7 times 70 times

Sounds like OSAS.

 

[atpollard]

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Why would a believer deny Jesus??????

So much of scripture points to a binary reality:

John 3:18 [NASB20] "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

• No middle ground - either 'is not judged' or 'has been judged already'. Either believes or does not believe. 'Has been judged' is an action which already occurred and will not change, because 'does not believe' is in the Perfect tense - a condition that will not change (like when Jesus stated "It is finished".

John 10:25-28 [NASB] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

• Again there are His sheep and NOT His sheep. All saw and heard the same information, so it was not the message that differed. It was their status (the soil) that determined what would happen to the seed. His sheep hear and obey BECAUSE they are His sheep and NOT His sheep do not listen and obey BECAUSE they are not His sheep.
• Both conditions appear permanent. Biblical Binary Reality.

[Rom 9:15-16, 21-24 NASB20] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. ... Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

• Two classes of objects ... wrath and mercy ... with the Creator choosing which is which. Not based on any MERIT, but 100% because He "chose to show mercy on whom He chose to show mercy". God CHOOSES to "SHOW MERCY". God does not invite people to compete in an invitation to prove themselves worthy of mercy.

 

[donadams]

Sounds like OSAS.

God always grants mercy in true repentance to those who are baptized

There are other ways to obtain mercy
Matt 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

1 Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Sounds like OSAS.

OSAS only applies when we die in Christ and his grace

 

[donadams]

So much of scripture points to a binary reality:

John 3:18 [NASB20] "The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

• No middle ground - either 'is not judged' or 'has been judged already'. Either believes or does not believe. 'Has been judged' is an action which already occurred and will not change, because 'does not believe' is in the Perfect tense - a condition that will not change (like when Jesus stated "It is finished".

John 10:25-28 [NASB] Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep. My sheep listen to My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

• Again there are His sheep and NOT His sheep. All saw and heard the same information, so it was not the message that differed. It was their status (the soil) that determined what would happen to the seed. His sheep hear and obey BECAUSE they are His sheep and NOT His sheep do not listen and obey BECAUSE they are not His sheep.
• Both conditions appear permanent. Biblical Binary Reality.

[Rom 9:15-16, 21-24 NASB20] For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. ... Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

• Two classes of objects ... wrath and mercy ... with the Creator choosing which is which. Not based on any MERIT, but 100% because He "chose to show mercy on whom He chose to show mercy". God CHOOSES to "SHOW MERCY". God does not invite people to compete in an invitation to prove themselves worthy of mercy.

Why are there so many conditional promises and statements like Matt 5:7?

 

[CrowCross]

OSAS only applies when we die in Christ and his grace

What does that mean?

 

[donadams]

What does that mean?

By faith and baptism we receive justification then a lifetime of sanctification prayer, penance, suffering for Christ, practicing virtue fasting alms sacraments
Abiding in Christ Jn 15:1-5
Enduring to the end (death) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Redemption:
The First redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

 

[CrowCross]

By faith and baptism we receive justification then a lifetime of sanctification prayer, penance, suffering for Christ, practicing virtue fasting alms sacraments
Abiding in Christ Jn 15:1-5
Enduring to the end (death) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

By faith.....baptism isn't a requirement.

Redemption:
The First redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Define faithful. You make it sound like works keeps you saved.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

 

[CrowCross]

By faith and baptism we receive justification then a lifetime of sanctification prayer, penance, suffering for Christ, practicing virtue fasting alms sacraments
Abiding in Christ Jn 15:1-5
Enduring to the end (death) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Where does the verse teach the end is death?

Redemption:
The First redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

At the hour of death separation from the grace of God by apostasy / rejection of Christ or failing to repent of serious sin a man is lost in damnation! Or

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

 

[donadams]

By faith.....baptism isn't a requirement.


Define faithful. You make it sound like works keeps you saved.

Baptism is not only required Mk 16:16 but the initiation into the new covenant

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




If not faith and baptism then it must be “faith alone”! Not


“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism

 

[donadams]

By faith.....baptism isn't a requirement.


Define faithful. You make it sound like works keeps you saved.

Not saved until death Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Redemption:
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[donadams]

Where does the verse teach the end is death?

Mk 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.