What is Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS)?

[Runningman]

Please stay on topic.
See posts 5 and 8.

Unbelievable. You replied to my post #4 by trying to change the subject. The subject of what you replied to is Acts 4 which demonstrates that Jesus is not the Sovereign Lord and Creator, but rather a servant of God. If you're going to reply to my comments then start by addressing what I said.

 

[Josheb]

What is Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS)? This doctrine teaches that the Son is not ontologically subordinate but is relationally subordinate or a Father and Son relationship. The Son's eternal relationship to the Father has always been an eternal “authority” (on the part of the Father) and eternal “subordination” (on the part of the Son). If the Son is not eternally subordinate to the Father, then the Father is not eternally Father and the Son is not eternally Son. And the authority over the Son is relational to the Father, and subordination to the Father is relational of the Son. I will demonstrate one example of this in respect to creation. The Scriptures says that "without him" there would be no creation and no subordination. So, the eternal subordination of the Son is done "for him" and his functional role is "for us and for our salvation."

My answer to this question/commentary is going to be more soteriological and eschatological in nature than specifically Theology (the study of God ontologically) and I do not wish to detract from the discussion of the Trinity.


The terms "Father and Son are largely New Testament terms and they pertain almost exclusively to roles played in terms of salvation and end times. It is true the term "son" can be found in the OT but the more ordinary terms used in the OT are "LORD" versus "Lord." In the New Testament the use of "Son" is overwhelmingly soteriological in nature. Jesus, the Son of God who is God, came that we might have salvation from sin and God's wrath. Salvation from sin is not something that is as explicitly asserted in the OT. Likewise, eschatologically speaking, Jesus the Son is seated at God's right hand as God's right hand (both positionally and relationally) but he is also seated on his Father's throne in Revelation. In other words, two Persons, not one person are seated on the same, single throne. Theologically speaking the heavens are His throne and the earth is His footstool. Eschatologically speaking both Jesus and God, Father and Son, LORD and Lord, are said to have the role of King and Judge...... BUT in the end the Son gives everything to God and doing so he is glorified. That is an eschatological difference. Ontologically the Bible makes identical comparisons between God and Jesus, Father and Son, but soteriologically and eschatologically the latter is subordinate to the former.

Different roles for different purposes.

And the failure to recognize these distinctions corrupts the discussion of the Trinity. Every non-Trin leveraging a difference stated in scripture while failing to acknowledge the role being played in that passage is arguing a straw men. Not just a straw man of the doctrine of the Trinity, but a straw man of scripture. Scripture cannot be misrepresented by ignoring the stated roles and then thought to have a cogent case for one's position. Everything built on the misrepresentation fails (both exegetically and logically).

And, sadly, sometimes Trins fall prey to the same mistake in reverse. Jesus is subordinate to the Father relationally, but that Father/Son relationship is a New Testament, soteriological/eschatological condition and those conditions do not exist in all ways eternally. So while I will agree Jesus, God the Son, is subordinate to God the Father, it is only in regard to the role the Son plays within creation salvifically. The subordinate role is not eternal. Both Guys sit on the exact same throne in the exact same roles doing the exact same job outside of salvation eternally.

Lastly, we might want to clarify the use of the term "eternally," because Jesus is the resurrection and there has never been a point in creation when he was not the resurrection. He speaks ontologically of his being the resurrection. It is not something he lacked one minute and possessed another only to again not have it sometime later. The same kind of condition exists with his being Creator, Judge, Lover, etc. Jesus will always be the means of our salvation from sin but there will be a day when salvation from sin is unnecessary. One day we will be raised incorruptible and immortal - but still not God. Time is a created condition. Jesus and God existed prior to time. Confusing the two is a mistake. Eternity is without time, extra-time, extra cause-and-effect - and it is that way in both directions.



Good op, otherwise.

 

[Fred]

You replied to my post #4 by trying to change the subject.

That's your delusion.

The same Greek word in Acts 4:24 is used in application to Christ in Jude 4.

You couldn't refute it, so you just go on and on whimpering about how I am trying to change the subject.

Get real.

 

[Binyawmene]

Jesus the Son is seated at God's right hand as God's right hand (both positionally and relationally) but he is also seated on his Father's throne in Revelation. In other words two Persons, not one person are seated on the same, single throne. Theologically speaking the heavens are His throne and the earth is His footstool.

I personally believe there is one throne that both the Father and the Son is seated based on this verse in Revelation 3:21 "and sat down with my Father on his throne." But in Revelations 4 mentions there is "one sitting" on the throne. And Revelations certainly does make the distinction between "one sitting" and "the Lamb" (Revelations 5:13, 6:16). With that in mind, I will outline some opposing problems:

1. The Divine Nature is not bound to a spatial location (the throne in heaven) or confined to union of the human nature by the Son-person, then jump from point A to point B (Jeremiah 23:23-24, 2 Chronicles 2:6, 1 Kings 8:27). The Divine Nature is omnipresence and is equally present everywhere at all times and in all places. This means that the logical standpoint is "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven and "present at hand" according to the human nature and not vice versa. Because the throne and the human nature is not omnipresence.

2. Then who was John seeing in Revelations 4:3? The one who is sitting on the throne isn't named. But no one can see the Father (1 Timothy 6:16), the Son is also in the invisible image (Colossians 1:15) according to the Divine Nature, and we have only seen the Son's physical image (John 1:18) according to the human nature. So, based on this, I would say that the "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven, is a manifestation of theophany and the Lamb is a manifestation of christophany.​

Both Guys sit on the exact same throne in the exact same roles doing the exact same job outside of salvation eternally.

Right. One Divine Nature implies only 'one sitting' there by the description "Lord God Almighty," which is in reference to the Divine Nature with three "holy" pronouncements (Revelations 4:8). The thing is, Trinitarians don't isolate the Father as the only sole person of God. When we speak about the persons alone distinctively, that doesn't mean the persons are separated or divided into another god. There is only one undivided and indivisible Divine Nature. Each person of the Trinity is completely and fully Lord God Almighty indivisibly. And each person has the whole fullness of God's being in himself when spoken about distinctively.

Another thing I want to mention is from Athanasian Creed: "...And in the Trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are co-eternal together and co-equal."

The eternal subordination framework has this particular order:

In Creation: From the Father, through the Son, and sending the Spirit (Psalm 104:30, Genesis 1:2).

Through Incarnation: The Father sends the Son, and the Son is sent, but the Father is with the Son (John 8:29).

After Ascension: Both the Father and the Son sends the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, John 16:7).​

But there are certain Scriptures that doesn't go by that particular order, for instance:

The Son "came from the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

Grace and peace comes "from" both the Father and the Son (Revelation 1:4-5).

Or, you might say that the titles "The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spiri." As if the Father is always mentioned first and the Son is always mentioned secondly. Here is example of the Son being placed before the Father (2 Corinthians 13:14).​

Lastly, we might want to clarify the use of the term "eternally,"

That the Son is eternal.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.​

Take for instant Hebrews 1:10-12 for example, the Son-person (who is the LORD) is being compared to a garment. The garment will change, rot, an fade away, but the Person of the Son remains the same because he is immutable. This Scripture also expresses the idea of eternalness[/u]. It takes time for the garment to change or creation itself to perish, but through the whole process we have the Eternal Person of the Son remaining the same without change. It also uses a literacy device "and your years will never end," its not saying that God increase in age (one through countless years), since "years" imply change and beginning in our temporal understanding. But its understood in the sense that the Person of the Son is eternalness through immutability.

What I am pointing out that the Person of the Son according to the Divine Nature maintain an eternal infinite duration without past, present, and future. A continuous duration without beginning and will have no end. Which is not a momentary existence but continuous perpetual existence. And he is not limited by a period of time itself in any way; for he supersedes and transcends it. For he is existing beyond the bounds of time and dimensions of his creation. Because essentially, he cannot be measured by eternal future which is infinitely without end and the eternal past which is infinitely without beginning. The eternity of God the Son is an Eternal Now for there is no succession in his Eternal Person.

Eternal or after the resurrection?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?​

This describes the 'state' of the Son-person as having a perpetual existence that continues in the past, continues into the present, and continues after it. He always has been and always will be the Son. That's why we imply "eternally" to "begotten" or eternally begotten Son. In other words, this denotes a state of being eternal of who he is continuously and on-going duration, timeless and perpetual, a universal truth is true for all time -- true in the past, true in the present, and true in the future.

Revelations 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelations 4:8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty,’ who was, and is, and is to come.”

Revelations 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds," and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen.​

 

[Runningman]

That's your delusion.

The same Greek word in Acts 4:24 is used in application to Christ in Jude 4.

You couldn't refute it, so you just go on and on whimpering about how I am trying to change the subject.

Get real.

This is disgusting. Page 2 and you're still trying to change the subject. @Binyawmene I am sorry to see that @Fred has derailed your thread and turned it into a joke. Fred, address Post #4 or move on.

In creation, Acts 4:24 says the "Sovereign Lord" is the creator of heavens and earth. In this same prayer, verse 27, the referred to Jesus as God's servant. I would suggest the correct way to look at the provided examples is in context of the church, Jesus not being God himself, and not being equal to God as you correctly admitted.

 

[Fred]

This is disgusting. Page 2 and you're still trying to change the subject

Page 2 and you are still griping about nonsense.
Go cry on someone else's shoulder about it.

 

[Runningman]

In creation, Acts 4:24 says the "Sovereign Lord" is the creator of heavens and earth. In this same prayer, verse 27, they referred to Jesus as God's servant. That means Jesus isn't God.

 

[grace2]

In creation, Acts 4:24 says the "Sovereign Lord" is the creator of heavens and earth. In this same prayer, verse 27, they referred to Jesus as God's servant. That means Jesus isn't God.

Yes, Jesus is His Father's faithful Servant. He says so Himself.

Moses also predicted Him and told us to listen to Him and obey Him as our Lord.

 

[Mr GLee]

What is Eternal Subordination of the Son (ESS)? This doctrine teaches that the Son is not ontologically subordinate but is relationally subordinate or a Father and Son relationship. The Son's eternal relationship to the Father has always been an eternal “authority” (on the part of the Father) and eternal “subordination” (on the part of the Son). If the Son is not eternally subordinate to the Father, then the Father is not eternally Father and the Son is not eternally Son. And the authority over the Son is relational to the Father, and subordination to the Father is relational of the Son. I will demonstrate one example of this in respect to creation. The Scriptures says that "without him" there would be no creation and no subordination. So, the eternal subordination of the Son is done "for him" and his functional role is "for us and for our salvation."

Here is a basic subordinate framework: From the Father and through the Son

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.​

​

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.​

​

Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.​

​

Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.​

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Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.​

Now in Romans 11:36, the three "Hims" in the first sentence is one-person view in reference to the Son or two-person view in reference to both the Father and the Son? And who is receiving "glory?" Keep in mind that "without him" (John 1:3) there would be no creation. Which bring us to Revelations 4:11, who "the Lord and God of us" is receiving glory credit for creation? The Father or the Son? Or both who is Lord and God?

“You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.”​

God is not dying mankind.

As the born again sons of God .He calls us gods to whom the word of God the gospel of salvation comes. Our bodies are temples of the living God as those who handle the word of God (.sola scriptura) In that way it help establish the first commandment have no gods before him to include one self

John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The Elohim in Genesis 1:26 represents what I call the "dynamic dual" The unseen eternal Holy Father working displaying in dying mankind. . as born again sons of God

Two is the one witness God has spoke. . called the law of faith (christ's) or the law of His labor of love (Christ's) ".let there be" and "it was God alone good" .One Faithful Creator using the dying creation to reveal the unseen things of eternal God .

In Isaiah 8 we see worldly wisdom (necromancy "Hebrew Dardash ) seeking after dead relatives and men of consdered highly venerable that some must call patron saints .

Necomacy "to seek" it is used in two ways. One seeking the spiritual understanding through the scripture and the other seeing after the oral tradition of dying mankind. Dying mankind again of them that make the word of God to no effect.

Revealing to us they have no light of the gospel the faithful law. . "Let there be" and its testimony was "God alone is good" (sola scriptura)

The two witnesses that one God has spoke also called Moses to represent the Law as to the letter "death" (surely you will die and not rise to new life . and Elisa the prophets the redeeming spirit of the law "the prophets" . the testimony of the law

Luke 1:16-18King James Version1 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

John was sent with the power that worked in Elias the spirit of justification

Luke 1:17-18King James Version17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

You could say theMoses just (the letter "death") and the justifier the prophet's again a testimony one God has spoken

Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek (necromancy) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek (necromancy) unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, (singular) it is because there is no light in them.

Same usage in the parables found in luke 16 .The parable of "no man can serve two teaching good masters" as one eternal God

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God (wisdom of God sola scriptura ) and mammon.(the wisdom of the world )

Seeking after dead relatives as workers with familiar spirit gods (legion of gods) 3500 and rising. Again some must call "patron saints" passed down from the old testament faithless fathers

They tried to prove serving a legion of gods they called fathers "dying mankind" (patron saints) was higher authority than Moses (signified as the law" and the prophets (signified by Elias) or called sola scriptura. . the flaming Sword of the Spirit, the living abiding word

Luke 16: 27-29 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; (sola scriptura) let them hear them.

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, (the letter death and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

[Fred]

In creation, Acts 4:24 says the "Sovereign Lord" is the creator of heavens and earth. In this same prayer, verse 27, they referred to Jesus as God's servant. That means Jesus isn't God.

Thus proving Jesus is not the Father, but Jesus is God in that the same Greek word for "Sovereign Lord" is used in equality to Jesus in Revelation 6:10 - see post 32.

Simple.

 

[Fred]

Yes, Jesus is His Father's faithful Servant. He says so Himself.

Moses also predicted Him and told us to listen to Him and obey Him as our Lord.

And Stephen prayed to Jesus as such in Acts 7:59-60.

 

[Fred]

Yes. and Revelations 6:10.

Yes, that is still another passage where Jesus is the 'despotēs' of every believer in equality with that of the Father (Acts 4:24).

Revelation 3:7
And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; He who is holy, He who is true, He who hath the key of David, He who openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth, says this
Revelation 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?

 

[Mr GLee]

Both.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, our Lord and our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power: for Thou hast created all things, and for Thy pleasure they are created.

Revelation 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive the power, and riches, and wisdom, and might, and honor, and glory, and blessing.

One God not two or more. Neither verse aplies to dying mankind as Jesus the born again son of God . Jesus the Christ is the Holy Father.

Jesus the son of man used to show the world the power of our unseen Holy Father.

Jesus powerless, faithless to raise his own self from the dead

Jesus the prophet apostle prophesied given words from his Father . The Son of man said not as I will father as a powerless son but you alone with the power to raise the dead and give eternal life

Jesus said in regard to his dying flesh it profits for zero, nothing, nada . God is not Jewish man as King of kings .That lie represents wile of the spirit of lies the man of sin.

 

[Fred]

One God not two or more.

Something I never denied.

Neither verse aplies to dying mankind as Jesus the born again son of God . Jesus the Christ is the Holy Father.

Pathetic.

The verse teaches Jesus is God.

 

[Mr GLee]

Something I never denied.



Pathetic.

The verse teaches Jesus is God.

Eternal God is a man ? or God demonstrated His love through dying mankind ?


Invisible God displayed, revealed himself through the temporal things seen, dying mankind. Jesus the Son of man ?

Eternal God is not a man, dying mankind.

He does work pouring out his Spirit life on dying mankind to both reveal his will and empower us to do it to His good pleasure. Some murmur like Jonas , others like Jesus the son of man delighted in do the will of the unseen Holy Father( Philippians 2:13)

 

[Fred]

Eternal God is a man ?

Yes, because Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
You have not, because you cannot, refute this.

 

[Josheb]

I personally believe there is one throne that both the Father and the Son is seated based on this verse in Revelation 3:21 "and sat down with my Father on his throne."

Then the subordinate relationship between Father and Son is not eternally subordinate.

Do not over-complicate it or overthink it.

But in Revelations 4 mentions there is "one sitting" on the throne. And Revelations certainly does make the distinction between "one sitting" and "the Lamb" (Revelations 5:13, 6:16).

Again, If the Lamb and/or God is sitting on the exact same throne then that is proof, not just mere evidence of an equality, not a subordination.

With that in mind, I will outline some opposing problems:

1. The Divine Nature is not bound to a spatial location (the throne in heaven) or confined to union of the human nature by the Son-person, then jump from point A to point B (Jeremiah 23:23-24, 2 Chronicles 2:6, 1 Kings 8:27). The Divine Nature is omnipresence and is equally present everywhere at all times and in all places. This means that the logical standpoint is "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven and "present at hand" according to the human nature and not vice versa. Because the throne and the human nature is not omnipresence.​

​

It is correct that God exists outside of and external to that which He created and, therefore, the relationship between God the Father and God the Son is not confined to the Son being the word made flesh. God is omni-attributed.

What is not correct is "...the throne.... is not omnipresent." That is wrong. The "throne" is not a chair sitting in heaven. The throne is heaven.

Isaiah 66:1
Thus says the LORD, “Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

Matthew 5:34-35
"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King."

This should be read within the context of the verse first verse of the Bible.

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God made the heavens and the earth and the heavens are His throne and the earth is His footstool and Jesus is seated on that throne that is the heavens in the heavens ruling over the earth and there is not one fraction of a millimeter over which He/he is not LORD/Lord.


More importantly, all the following comments you've posted about Revelation have to do with soteriology and eschatology, but you have failed to distinguish that fact from capital-T Theology (the nature of God). Jesus prior to creation being created is a much different Jesus than the one who surrendered his claim of equality with God and emptied himself (he did it - it was not to him or forced upon him in any way by another), took the form of a bondservant, being made in the likeness of men (Php 2).

Now I do not know where you personally and specifically fall on my next point, but I am going to speak to it preemptively. A lot of people wrongly imagine Jesus was not omnipresent while one earth in a physical human body, but scripture gives us plenty of evidence to think otherwise. He sees and hears Nathaniel from far away. He knows the past, present and future stretching across millennia, not just the limits of his earthly life and memory. He knows the thoughts/minds or others both commonly (the mind of fallen man) and personally (the mind of specific individuals). People anthropomorphize Jesus in bad ways AND they fail to correctly understand the nature of time and space - or omnipresence - because time and space are functions of gravity, or more accurately singularity.

God the Father AND God the Son are THE Creator of singularity.

More importantly, any limited locality Jesus may have had on earth or "in" heaven or "in" revelation (remember: he is the revealer, he existed external to the revelation of Revelation).

I would also submit Jesus' "human nature" is omnipresent but that is fodder for a separate post. We're made like Jesus, not the other way around. We're a temporal creation of the extra-temporal Jesus and Jesus did things in his earthly body and with his earthly bodies we cannot or do not do. It's a base error in logic to think from the creature to the creator and assume the former's attributes apply to the latter.

2. Then who was John seeing in Revelations 4:3?​

The Revealer of that Revelation.

The one who is sitting on the throne isn't named. But no one can see the Father (1 Timothy 6:16), the Son is also in the invisible image (Colossians 1:15) according to the Divine Nature, and we have only seen the Son's physical image (John 1:18) according to the human nature. So, based on this, I would say that the "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven, is a manifestation of theophany and the Lamb is a manifestation of christophany.​

I encourage you to think this through because your own words prove the subordinate role is soteriological and eschatological and not eternal. Let me clarify that. Salvation and end times are (sort of) eternal conditions in the sense that once resurrected and past the transformation where we are raised incorruptible and eternal there is no going backwards. Our salvation, once complete, will be unending BUT Jesus is much more than our Savior. Jesus is Lord first. His being Savior applies only to those who are saved. To all others he is NOT savior BUT he is always and everywhere Lord. Every knee will bow and confess him as Lord and his Lordship is eternal. All creatures everywhere for all time will always and everywhere bow and acknowledge his Lord ship. They will not all bow and confess him as Savior.

His Lordship is eternal.
His Saviorship is also eternal but limited only to the saved and after their salvation is complete so too is Jesus' role as Savior. His Saviorship takes on a completed aspect that his Lordship does not possess - or it is more accurate to say his Lordship exceeds.

Another thing I want to mention is from Athanasian Creed

No creed has authority over scripture. I subscribe to that creed but I will not entertain it for the purpose of this discussion because it is extra-biblical, and unnecessary.

That the Son is eternal.

Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God.​

Again: look at what you just posted. Psalm 90:2 does not state his sonship is everlasting. Furthermore, the phrase "everlasting to everlasting" is not synonymous with "eternal." The word "everlasting" is unidirectional (in this case the starting point is the creation of the world). Eternity is bi-directional, or omni-directional. Up, down, north, south, forward, backward, before, after are ALL created features of created creation. They do not exist in eternity.

Take for instant Hebrews 1:10-12 for example, the Son-person (who is the LORD) is being compared to a garment.........

Youo are again using a soteriological/eschatological example and failing to make the necessary distinction to consider the eternal.

Eternal or after the resurrection?

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.​

​

Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?​

There is no "yesterday" or "today" in eternity.


Radical improvements and changes are necessary when considering eternal Christology. Temporal Christology is not identical to eternal Christology; it is a subset of it. While Jesus is here on earth e is different than "while" in eternity. While "in" heaven he is different still (on earth, in heaven, before creation means there are three different aspects of Jesus, and they are not identical). The Revealer of Revelation was not in Revelation or his revelation while he revealed Revelation. The Revealer is always external to his revelation, just as I am not my posts and you are not yours.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, because Jesus is the proper recipient of prayer.
You have not, because you cannot, refute this.

We pray the same way as our brother in the Lord Jesus. . Our one Holy Father in heaven not a legion of Holy Fathers. Holy See, Vicar of Christ Primate of Italy on earth

All born again believer to include Jesus the son of man received the reward of Christ grace. . a work of faith or labor of love As a work of Christ it is never alone we are his workmanship and not of Peter or Mary. . recipients of Christ labor of love or called a work of His faith. same powerful faith that works in all believers as it is writen

We are not saved by the faith of Peter or Mary our brother and sister in the lord

Why is the fullness of grace the whole price of salvation given to the Queen mother of heaven and the rest of the planet a unkowable revetment of grace and after they take thier last breath of oxygen they must continue to suffer and wonder in limbo or purgatory, wondering suffering with no end "the salvation of one soul" in sight ?

Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;(christ's) and that not of yourselves: it is the (free ) gift of God: Not of (Our ) works, lest any man should boast.For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Again why the Queen mother alone receive the fullness of Grace? Is our sister in the Lord Mary the mother of mercy?

 

[Fred]

We pray the same way as our brother in the Lord Jesus. .

Christians today also pray as the earliest Christians did ->to the Lord Jesus.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-trinity.337/page-17#post-58886

 

[Binyawmene]

Then the subordinate relationship between Father and Son is not eternally subordinate.

The Father and the Son sitting on the same throne implies the Son is not eternally subordinate? It doesn't matter if we are talking about Ontological Trinity or Economical Trinity. The Son still receives glory regardless of if he is equal or subordinate. The Father and the Son are co-equal creator, even though, the Son was subordinate in the act of creating. For instance, worshiping the Son based upon one of his subordinate functional roles, like being the Creator, that doesn't mean the Father receives all the glory credit. Why? Because they subsist in the same Divine Nature. To worship the Father is to glorify the Son and the Holy Spirit. To worship the Son is to glorify the Father and the Holy Spirit. And to worship the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Father and the Son.

Again, If the Lamb and/or God is sitting on the exact same throne then that is proof, not just mere evidence of an equality, not a subordination.

Except, I didn't say that the Lamb was sitting on the throne. The glorified Son was already described in Revelations 1:12-15 and the Lamb is a christophany Revelation 5:6.

I said: "And Revelations certainly does make the distinction between "one sitting" and "the Lamb" (Revelations 5:13, 6:16)." I also said: "So, based on this, I would say that the "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven, is a manifestation of theophany and the Lamb is a manifestation of christophany."​

So, based upon your line of reasoning, the Eternal Lamb or the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world is subordinate for us and our salvation cannot be worshipped because he is not co-equal? Foreknowledge and Christophany or not the Lamb was worshipped.

Revelations 5:11-13 Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying:

“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”​

Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”​

The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

What is not correct is "...the throne.... is not omnipresent." That is wrong.

I never said that the throne is omnipresent.

I said: "1. The Divine Nature is not bound to a spatial location (the throne in heaven) or confined to union of the human nature by the Son-person, then jump from point A to point B (Jeremiah 23:23-24, 2 Chronicles 2:6, 1 Kings 8:27). The Divine Nature is omnipresence and is equally present everywhere at all times and in all places. This means that the logical standpoint is "present at hand" accordance to the throne in heaven and "present at hand" according to the human nature and not vice versa. Because the throne and the human nature is not omnipresence."​

The "throne" is not a chair sitting in heaven. The throne is heaven.

Now that is interesting Bible verses. The Hebrew doesn't say, "is" in Isaiah 66:1 and the Greek has the word "is" (the throne is of God) and not "throne is heaven." What I see from those Bible verses is God's immensity and transcendence. God's throne has a seat and one sat in it (Hebrews 1:3, 4:16, 8:1, 12:2). God has one throne and not another throne at the right side. The "right hand" simply means power and authority or the one sitting on God's throne has overcome the world and exalted into that position.