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What did John Wesley hold that Calvinist disagree with?

It is the Amplified Bible........
It's a translation that goes a bit overboard.
Well, I guess I will be odd man out.............
The AMP is a fine translation but there are two presuppositional concerns. The first is that God directed the author to use the specific words written in His revelation. The second is God did not direct the authors to use multiple words to clarify, emphasize, or embellish His revelation. The problem modern translators have is which English word is the best replacement for the Hebrew or Greek (even the Interlinear has that problem). The AMP endeavors to address that concern by providing multiple synonymous English alternatives. That is not actually a word-for-word translation. Another lesser concern is that synonyms are sometimes not identical in meaning. The words, "regret" and "remorse," are often interchanged in normal vernacular buy they are not truly identical.


What does this have to do with Wesley? Wesley used the KJV and (I hope) we can all agree that is a problematic translation.
 
In which way(s) is it [KJV] problematic?
James White critiques the King James Version (KJV) primarily for its underlying Greek text being based on a small number of inferior manuscripts and for the outdated, confusing English that makes it less accessible to modern readers. He also highlights inconsistencies and potential inaccuracies in the KJV's translation, arguing that more reliable textual evidence and the natural evolution of language necessitate updated, clearer modern translations.


Problems with the Underlying Text:
The KJV was translated from Greek manuscripts that are now known to be few and of lower quality compared to the vast number of older manuscripts available to modern translators.

Disagreements within the Byzantine text tradition mean that different KJV editions can vary, presenting challenges for KJV-only advocates.


Problems with the Language and Translation:
  • Outdated Language:
    The KJV's archaic English is confusing for modern readers, with many words no longer having their original meaning.
  • Translation Inaccuracies and Inconsistencies:
    White points to several examples where the KJV translation is misleading, unclear, or potentially wrong, whereas modern translations offer a clearer reading.
  • Lack of Modern Accessibility:
    The KJV is less accessible to the modern reader because the language needs to be updated to convey the Bible's message effectively.

White's Overall Argument:
  • White doesn't deny that the KJV translators did a good job given the resources they had.
  • However, he argues against KJV-onlyism, which claims the KJV is the only infallible English translation. He explains that modern translations can actually be clearer on certain theological points, such as the deity of Christ, than the KJV.
  • He advocates for using more accurate modern translations that are based on superior textual evidence and are translated into contemporary, understandable English.
 
James White critiques the King James Version (KJV) primarily for its underlying Greek text being based on a small number of inferior manuscripts and for the outdated, confusing English that makes it less accessible to modern readers. He also highlights inconsistencies and potential inaccuracies in the KJV's translation, arguing that more reliable textual evidence and the natural evolution of language necessitate updated, clearer modern translations.
Yes, I know I read his book on it years ago. But thanks for that reminder. I like Dr. James White.
Problems with the Underlying Text:
The KJV was translated from Greek manuscripts that are now known to be few and of lower quality compared to the vast number of older manuscripts available to modern translators.
Yes, the Byzantine scrolls, not the older Alexandrian scrolls.

But I'll stop there, I dont want to hijack the thread.

Thanks for sharing.
 
James White critiques the King James Version (KJV) primarily for its underlying Greek text being based on a small number of inferior manuscripts and for the outdated, confusing English that makes it less accessible to modern readers. He also highlights inconsistencies and potential inaccuracies in the KJV's translation, arguing that more reliable textual evidence and the natural evolution of language necessitate updated, clearer modern translations.


Problems with the Underlying Text:
The KJV was translated from Greek manuscripts that are now known to be few and of lower quality compared to the vast number of older manuscripts available to modern translators.

Disagreements within the Byzantine text tradition mean that different KJV editions can vary, presenting challenges for KJV-only advocates.


Problems with the Language and Translation:
  • Outdated Language:
    The KJV's archaic English is confusing for modern readers, with many words no longer having their original meaning.
  • Translation Inaccuracies and Inconsistencies:
    White points to several examples where the KJV translation is misleading, unclear, or potentially wrong, whereas modern translations offer a clearer reading.
  • Lack of Modern Accessibility:
    The KJV is less accessible to the modern reader because the language needs to be updated to convey the Bible's message effectively.

White's Overall Argument:
  • White doesn't deny that the KJV translators did a good job given the resources they had.
  • However, he argues against KJV-onlyism, which claims the KJV is the only infallible English translation. He explains that modern translations can actually be clearer on certain theological points, such as the deity of Christ, than the KJV.
  • He advocates for using more accurate modern translations that are based on superior textual evidence and are translated into contemporary, understandable English.
Maybe bible versions will be a good thread?
 
In which way(s) is it problematic?
Is the answer to that question not already known? 1 Corinthians 13's "agape" is not "charity" (a God forsaken translation)? The KJV inconsistently translates "aionos" as "world" and has Jesus teaching the world will end (Mt. 13:49) when the Greek says no such thing?

Deuteronomy 33:17
His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.

A unicorn has only one horn. The word "unicorn" literally means "one horn"!!! How then could the creature in question have plural, multiple horns like a one-horned unicorn? Reason should have stopped the KJV translators dead in their tracks and prevented them from translating "raem" (wild ox) as unicorn.
 
The KJV inconsistently translates "aionos" as "world" and has Jesus teaching the world will end (Mt. 13:49) when the Greek says no such thing?
True, but Jesus does teach that the erth/world will end. For example:

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (KJV)

The word used for "earth" there is not ainos, but ge.
 
True, but Jesus does teach that the erth/world will end. For example:

Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (KJV)

The word used for "earth" there is not ainos, but ge.
Do you think that statement was intended to be taken literally? Would you like to follow that through to its logical conclusion and its exegetically necessary conclusion?
 
Do you think that statement was intended to be taken literally? Would you like to follow that through to its logical conclusion and its exegetically necessary conclusion?
Can you prove it was not? (No, I'm not saying it would be better to consider it literal til proven otherwise.)
 
Do you think that statement was intended to be taken literally? Would you like to follow that through to its logical conclusion and its exegetically necessary conclusion?
That is not the only verses which talks of the end of the earth. Ther5e are others, including:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” (2Pe 3:10 NKJV)

“Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.” (Re 21:1 NKJV)

They are surely not all non-literal.

Besides, my point was that verses which mention the destruction/end of the earth do not all rely on the Greek word aion.
 
Can you prove it was not? (No, I'm not saying it would be better to consider it literal til proven otherwise.)
How about we wait for @David Lamb to answer the question asked in Post 48
They are surely not all non-literal.
Why not just come right out and say, "Yes, Josh, I think the verse is literal"? Or, if I understand Post 50 correctly, why not come right out and state, "Perhaps Matthew 24:35 is not to be read literally but I do believe there are other verses about the end of the world that should be taken literally."
Can you prove it was not? (No, I'm not saying it would be better to consider it literal til proven otherwise.)
Yes, I can prove Matthew 24:35 is not literal. That verse states both the earth and heaven will pass away but not Christ's words.

To begin with that phrase "earth and heaven" can be understood in the context of the very first verse of the Bible, which states God created the heavens and the earth. There are many other verses that could be brought to bear on Mt. 24:35 but one in particular comes to mind: The heaven is God's throne, and the earth is His footstool (Isa. 66:1; Acts 7:49). Therefore, if Mt. 24:35 were taken literally it would all of creation ceases to exist. It would also mean God no longer has a throne. Since the hope of those in Christ is to be raised incorruptible and immortal Mt. 24:35 poses a contradiction. There is no immortality if creation no longer exists. The logic would be we get raised to heaven to live in heaven, and heaven then passes away. Jesus' comment is a figure of speech. It's an hyperbole. He could have said "I will get tired of your stupid ideas, but my words will never pass away." He could have said something more temporal, like, "The sun will eventually burn itself out but my words will never pass away," or even included a synecdoche and said, "The well will eventually dry up but my words will never pass away."

More importantly, if the earth and heaven do pass away and all the creatures living in heaven and earth go with it then what good will Jesus' words be? Who, beside the Trinity, would there be to hear, understand, and obey those words? Are we to understand Jesus to be saying, "My words will never pass away but one day there will be no one around to hear, understand, or obey them?"

So..... it is foolishness to read Mt. 24:35 literally. Doing so defies reason. It runs into multiple conflicts with the whole of scripture.


Once the whole of scripture is consulted the same will prove true of 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev. 21:10. If the first earth and heaven have passed away, then upon what is the new heavens and earth descending? John is standing on the earth when, in his vision, he sees the new heaven and earth descend. Furthermore, if the seas are dried up then there still exists land. However, if the seas all dry up, so too does all life cease to exist. The verse says, "pass away," not "ended," not "destroyed." The original point of dispute is that the Bible supposedly teaches the world will end. We should all be prepared for the world to end, not be replaced by something better. What the original verse in question actually, factually, explicitly, and demonstrably states is that the age ends, not the world. The KJV got it wrong.

And this is important because soteriology and eschatology are intertwined throughout scripture. It's a challenging book to get through because of its esoteric content and formal language but Geerhardus Vos' "The Pauline Eschatology" is well worth the read. It will alternatively inform and challenge one's soteriology with a pile of facts about scripture, beginning with the fact the NT writers were experiencing then end of an age, not the end of the world.
 
To begin with that phrase "earth and heaven" can be understood in the context of the very first verse of the Bible, which states God created the heavens and the earth.
Prove this.
 
To begin with that phrase "earth and heaven" can be understood in the context of the very first verse of the Bible, which states God created the heavens and the earth. There are many other verses that could be brought to bear on Mt. 24:35 but one in particular comes to mind: The heaven is God's throne, and the earth is His footstool (Isa. 66:1; Acts 7:49). Therefore, if Mt. 24:35 were taken literally it would all of creation ceases to exist. It would also mean God no longer has a throne. Since the hope of those in Christ is to be raised incorruptible and immortal Mt. 24:35 poses a contradiction. There is no immortality if creation no longer exists. The logic would be we get raised to heaven to live in heaven, and heaven then passes away. Jesus' comment is a figure of speech. It's an hyperbole. He could have said "I will get tired of your stupid ideas, but my words will never pass away." He could have said something more temporal, like, "The sun will eventually burn itself out but my words will never pass away," or even included a synecdoche and said, "The well will eventually dry up but my words will never pass away."
It would be simple to say, "false equivalence". That's all it takes to show your assertion is not proven.
 
More importantly, if the earth and heaven do pass away and all the creatures living in heaven and earth go with it then what good will Jesus' words be? Who, beside the Trinity, would there be to hear, understand, and obey those words? Are we to understand Jesus to be saying, "My words will never pass away but one day there will be no one around to hear, understand, or obey them?"
Why does "heaven and earth pass away" reduce to including al the creatures living in heaven and earth?
 
Once the whole of scripture is consulted the same will prove true of 2 Peter 3:10 and Rev. 21:10. If the first earth and heaven have passed away, then upon what is the new heavens and earth descending? John is standing on the earth when, in his vision, he sees the new heaven and earth descend. Furthermore, if the seas are dried up then there still exists land. However, if the seas all dry up, so too does all life cease to exist. The verse says, "pass away," not "ended," not "destroyed." The original point of dispute is that the Bible supposedly teaches the world will end. We should all be prepared for the world to end, not be replaced by something better. What the original verse in question actually, factually, explicitly, and demonstrably states is that the age ends, not the world. The KJV got it wrong.
Not to disagree with your conclusion, but do you have all the knowledge to say these things apply as you take them to mean? How many things God has said do you truly understand the way HE does? I'd venture to guess, like me, NONE.
 
Prove this.
It is self-evident. Both verses make mention of both terms. One of the basic rules of Bible interpretation is that no one verse stands alone and should be considered in the context of all that scripture as a while says about a matter. Furthermore, the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is the Creator. He's the guy that created the earth, and the heaven, and his words.

Your turn.
Why does "heaven and earth pass away" reduce to including al the creatures living in heaven and earth?
Where would all the creatures be living if there is no creation in which they would be living? The word "creation" includes its inhabitants. Humans, as far as the Bible informs, live in only one of two specified locations: the earth, or heaven. God, alternatively, exists external to that which He creates. Humans do not. Humans are created creatures. If there is no earth and there is no heaven, then there are no humans.
It would be simple to say, "false equivalence". That's all it takes to show your assertion is not proven.
No, according to the forum's rules, you have to explain how the false equivalence exists to the exclusion of any other possibility. And you're taking the thread further afield of the op. If you wish to discuss the matter of either the world ending or the exegesis ot Mt. 24:35 then do what the rules direct you to do and start a new thread on the topic.
 
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Not to disagree with your conclusion, but do you have all the knowledge to say these things apply as you take them to mean? How many things God has said do you truly understand the way HE does? I'd venture to guess, like me, NONE.
Nice red herring. The facts of scripture are...

  • God has made everything that has been made.
  • God made creation knowable.
  • God made humans with the faculties to know the knowable.
  • Not only is the entire creation a revelation of God, but God has made additional revelation for the express purpose of facilitating the knowledge of the knowable.
  • God explicitly invites everyone (not just His people) to reason with Him, which implies an ability to reason rationally and successfully.

Misusing scripture pertaining to "all knowledge" is irrational. Those bullet points are some of the truths that separate Christianity from all other religions. Can everything be fathomed by one finite creature? No, and no claim thereof has ever been made or implied by me. Can one individual know something? Yes. Can a group of Christians know some things? Yes. Can we have confidence that we know something and not nothing? Yes.
 
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Nice red herring. The facts of scripture are...

  • God has made everything that has been made.
  • God made creation knowable.
  • God made humans with the faculties to know the knowable.
  • Not only is the entire creation a revelation of God, but God has made additional revelation for the express purpose of facilitating the knowledge of the knowable.
  • God explicitly invites everyone (not just His people) to reason with Him, which implies an ability to reason rationally and successfully.

Misusing scripture pertaining to "all knowledge" is irrational. Those bullet points are some of the truths that separate Christianity from all other religions. Can everything be fathomed by one finite creature? No, and no claim thereof has ever been made or implied by me. Can one individual know something? Yes. Can a group of Christians know some things? Yes. Can we have confidence that we know something and not nothing? Yes.
Even in this life, the things we thought would happen almost never happen quite how we thought they would. The very nature of the next phase is not known (by us) at this time. Adding to that, that the word HEAVEN doesn't always mean the same thing, and that we don't even understand what "existence" is nor what it is not, but only what WE think about it and call it, and how we comprehend it, and that fact that God himself is the originator of very REALITY, I can pretty confidently say that "last days" events and subsequent fact does not now quite register to our understanding.

I find all sorts of plays on words and puns in Scripture. I find God saying ridiculous-sounding things that we currently call allegorical or symbolic or such, because we can't imagine them being quite the way described; yet I find plenty reason to believe that they are exactly accurate concerning God and Heaven, and not symbolic at all, unless OUR experience of what those words refer to is symbolic of the real thing. For example, 'the arm of the Lord' may well be exactly that, and our arm made in his image —his arm something beyond our comprehension currently, yet when we see him as he is, and his arm as it is, we will probably 'smack our foreheads' that it was right in front of us to see all along.

In short, (a reiteration): What we know and reason is not sufficient for making such self-assured claims. I think your conclusion is right in some way, and makes sense, BUT it is a prognostication, and we don't know what we are talking about. If you are right, I think it will mean (and not just imply) quite a bit more than any of us can know right now; its very nature may be so different that we may wonder like Job how we dared open our mouths. As @Eleanor says, these are riddles.
 
It is self-evident. Both verses make mention of both terms. One of the basic rules of Bible interpretation is that no one verse stands alone and should be considered in the context of all that scripture as a while says about a matter. Furthermore, the New Testament makes it clear that Jesus is the Creator. He's the guy that created the earth, and the heaven, and his words.

Your turn.
Where would all the creatures be living if there is no creation in which they would be living? The word "creation" includes its inhabitants. Humans, as far as the Bible informs, live in only one of two specified locations: the earth, or heaven. God, alternatively, exists external to that which He creates.
We may be surprised to see how God also lives INTERNAL to that which he creates. The smallest particle of matter and the force by which it moves may well be something of God, and not something of its own ontology.
Humans do not. Humans are created creatures. If there is no earth and there is no heaven, then there are no humans.
As I tried, perhaps insufficiently well, to describe is that the nature of "creation" is not necessarily the same later as it is now. We know that WE shall be changed. One would be hard pressed to prove that CREATION will not. An atom is not necessarily what we make of it now.
No, according to the forum's rules, you have to explain how the false equivalence exists to the exclusion of any other possibility. And you're taking the thread further afield of the op. If you wish to discuss the matter of either the world ending or the exegesis ot Mt. 24:35 then do what the rules direct you to do and start a new thread on the topic.
I have no wish to continue bickering.
 
Even in this life, the things we thought would happen almost never happen quite how we thought they would. The very nature of the next phase is not known (by us) at this time. Adding to that, that the word HEAVEN doesn't always mean the same thing, and that we don't even understand what "existence" is nor what it is not, but only what WE think about it and call it, and how we comprehend it, and that fact that God himself is the originator of very REALITY, I can pretty confidently say that "last days" events and subsequent fact does not now quite register to our understanding.

I find all sorts of plays on words and puns in Scripture. I find God saying ridiculous-sounding things that we currently call allegorical or symbolic or such, because we can't imagine them being quite the way described; yet I find plenty reason to believe that they are exactly accurate concerning God and Heaven, and not symbolic at all, unless OUR experience of what those words refer to is symbolic of the real thing. For example, 'the arm of the Lord' may well be exactly that, and our arm made in his image —his arm something beyond our comprehension currently, yet when we see him as he is, and his arm as it is, we will probably 'smack our foreheads' that it was right in front of us to see all along.

In short, (a reiteration): What we know and reason is not sufficient for making such self-assured claims. I think your conclusion is right in some way, and makes sense, BUT it is a prognostication, and we don't know what we are talking about. If you are right, I think it will mean (and not just imply) quite a bit more than any of us can know right now; its very nature may be so different that we may wonder like Job how we dared open our mouths. As @Eleanor says, these are riddles.
Most of that is wrong. It's also off topic. I'd suggest starting a new thread on the subject(s) but I'm still waiting on answers to posts in the "smoky dark thickness" thread.
 
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