Because I don't do wall-of-text ops.
Depends on how "free will" is defined and this question has been asked and answered ad nauseam.
Again, depending on how "free will" is defined, scripture proves op incorrect and what truths are posted therein are poorly reasoned but I'm betting you lack the ability to respectfully discuss the errors in the op and self-correct them (beginning with the wall of text).
To Josh II and
@Carbon (due to your agreement with Josh II),
You repeatedly conveyed "it depends on how free-will is defined", yet a working definition of freewill is found in item 2.1.3. of the original post:
Largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.
With item 2.1.3. in the OP, you either (1) disingenuously omit what you read in the original post, or (2) you didn't sufficiently read the original post which means that you comment is without understanding the original post.
Neither of those is nice behavior, Josh II and Carbon.
Would you like to continue corresponding about, oh, how did you put it, "ability to respectfully discuss"?
I relocated your third paragraph to the last paragraph in order to group similar subject matter, but the full original text remains. You won't find that I gouged out chunks of your post.
To begin with, the word "free" is defined as "not under the control, power, or dictating influence of another; able to act as one wishes; unfettered; autonomous." Using that definition, the normal, ordinary definition of the word, no one has ever been autonomous except God. All creatures have their origin and existence dependent on the Creator. All creatures are also limited, confined, and/or controlled by a variety of conditions inherent in creation. Time and space, for example, are two of the most basic and limiting on humanity. No human, not even the pre-disobedient Adam and Eve, could transcend the limits of time and space. They were not volitionally autonomous in either arena.
You defined "free", Josh II and Carbon, and in so doing, you help establish the point of this newer thread
"The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God" that a "will" is never "free" because the "will" requires a "host".
But that is not how scripture uses the term "free will." Scripture uses the term simply to mean humans have an ability to choose within the God-made limitations in which they live.
No Scripture states that man was created with a free will, in fact, Scripture states that
unbeliever man has a self will (2 Peter 2:9-10); therefore, your Point of Departure is the traditions of men (Matthew 15:9). Unregenerate, non-believer self-willed man is evil thus incapable of choosing Jesus for the Word of God says:
- "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so God exclusively chooses people.
- "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
- "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.
Take, for example, what Paul wrote about an unbeliever in his letter to the saints in Corinthian.
1 Corinthians 7:12
But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her
Yes, let's do take 1 Corinthians 7:12.
First, free-will is absent from the passage.
Pagan, unregenerate, non-believers have the liberty to consent to something. There may be one hundred million gazillion things to which they cannot consent, but in this one matter they are "free" or have the volitional agency to consent.
Continuing with your 1 Corinthians 7:12 commentary.
Paul states not the "will" of "Pagan, unregenerate, non-believers" choose Jesus.
Logically speaking, if the sin-corrupted, unregenerate, non-believer has this ability then Adam had some modicum of volitional agency as well.
Continuing with your 1 Corinthians 7:12 commentary.
Adam had a "will".
To suggest and then argue lacked what this pagan possessed places an onus on the one making that claim, not me. Adam was not free in the sense that he was autonomous from God but that does not preclude him from any and all volitional agency. Adam had the liberty to choose: eat or do not eat. Within that liberty and limitation, he choose poorly.
Continuing with your 1 Corinthians 7:12 commentary as you integrate Genesis 3:6.
Adam's "will", or "volition" as you put it, had nothing to do with "and he ate" (Genesis 3:6).
When you wrote "
Adam had the liberty to choose: eat or do not eat" then your heart adds to Genesis 3:6 resulting in "
and he chose to eat" - that is evil - evil that is compounded by your writing contradicting the Apostle Paul's writing as shown in the following.
Man's "Will" In Scripture Related To The Creation Account
Despite the Creation account in Genesis 1-3 being silent about man's "will", there exists Apostolic teaching on the matter of man's "will" with regard to the creation account.
Adam did not exercise willpower to disobey God's command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:16-17) for Paul wrote "the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, NASB); therefore, Adam did not make a choice, not a willing choice, to eat.
A "choice" by Adam is explicitly excluded by using scripture with scripture referencing, in fact, "the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly" (Romans 8:20, KJV), so Adam acted not willingly but rather acted subject to vanity in his eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
"Not willingly" indicates "not choice".
Some people may claim that Paul was referring to a timeframe exclusively after what they call "the fall" (after Adam ate of the tree Genesis 3:6), but the continuity of the passage of Romans 8:20-22 must be taken as a whole.
Paul left no room for disputing to the timeframe for which "not willingly" applies, for Paul also wrote "we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now" (Romans 8:22), and the phrase "until now" is the timeframe's most recent limiting factor which means that all times prior to "now" are included, so "the whole creation" includes the moment after God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life (Genesis 2:7) until Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:6); therefore, we can be certain that Paul includes the timeframe that Adam ate of the tree in the travailing/groaning because Paul wrote of all of this in the same passage, i.e. Romans 8:20-22.
I will also suggest that much of the debate over volitional agency is misguided because scripture places an emphasis on conduct, not volition. Of course, the two are inseparable in most cases because people do not ordinarily choose and then act different from their choosing. There are exceptions, but they are the exceptions, not the norm.
Scripture absence is conspicuous for your paragraph.
Here is Scripture that separates volition from conduct "The mind of man plans his way, But YHWH directs his steps" (Proverbs 16:9).
And, here is Scripture that states God controls individual believer's volition (will) and conduct (work) "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
And here is Scripture that states individual unbeliever!s volition is called self-will that leads to destruction "the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties" (2 Peter 2:9-19).
Do not be deceived, Almighty God controls each individual of us Christians by God's grace for God's glory "the love of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14).
This op does not make that case. This op is a wall of text and within that wall of text scripture is mishandled and the arguments poorly reasoned. It's a bad op. I find that to be the case with both your ops.
No, it does not. In point of fact the first three statements in the op are factually incorrect.
No Scripture, no quotes, no support for your writing "In point of fact the first three statements in the op are factually incorrect" there, merely you casting aside the original post without any attempt "to respectfully discuss" by you systematically examining the original post.
Your hypocritically asserted against me that "I'm betting you lack the ability to respectfully discuss the errors in the op and self-correct them", but later in your self-same post, you disparagingly wrote "This op is a wall of text and within that wall of text scripture is mishandled and the arguments poorly reasoned".
In this post, God had me scrupulously examine the thoughts of your heart that define who you are.
The original post contains the Truth (John 14:6) which shows richly in Scripture that Adam was not imparted free will, so no man thereafter was imparted free will.
