True Orthodox Judaism

[CherubRam]

True Orthodox Judaism.
The defining difference in Orthodox Judaism is that they do not join to Hellenism, Kabbalah, Mysticism, Paganism, or Gnosticism; otherwise they would be a synagogue of Satan.

Hosea 7:8
“Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

Hosea 11:12
Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, Israel with deceit. And Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful holy one.

Isaiah 2:6
You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs.

Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.

Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was The Word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sanhedrin (Hebrew and Aramaic: סנהדרין; Greek: Συνέδριον, synedrion, "sitting together," hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal in every city in the ancient Land of Israel.

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

The Pharisee were founded in 167 BC, they were a ("separatist") party that emerged largely out of a group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

 

[Josheb]

True Orthodox Judaism.
The defining difference in Orthodox Judaism is that they do not join to Hellenism, Kabbalah, Mysticism, Paganism, or Gnosticism; otherwise they would be a synagogue of Satan.

Hosea 7:8
“Ephraim mixes with the nations; Ephraim is a flat loaf not turned over.

Hosea 11:12
Ephraim has surrounded me with lies, Israel with deceit. And Judah is unruly against God, even against the faithful holy one.

Isaiah 2:6
You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs.

Revelation 2:9
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9
I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.


Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant

Zechariah 11:7-11. Three Shepherds And The Revoked Covenant.

Zechariah 11
7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock.
8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.
The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh."
10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was The Word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

The Sanhedrin (Hebrew and Aramaic: סנהדרין; Greek: Συνέδριον, synedrion, "sitting together," hence "assembly" or "council") was an assembly of twenty-three or seventy-one rabbis appointed to sit as a tribunal in every city in the ancient Land of Israel.

The Sadducees were members of a Jewish sect founded in the second century BC, possibly as a political party. They ceased to exist sometime after the first century AD.

The Pharisee were founded in 167 BC, they were a ("separatist") party that emerged largely out of a group of scribes and sages. Their name comes from the Hebrew and Aramaic parush or parushi, which means "one who is separated.

Thus the Three Shepherds: Sanhedrin, Sadducees, and Pharisees.

Three observations and one question:

1) None of that defines "true orthodox Judaism."

2) Although generally ascribed to have begun 2nd century BC, the Sads traced their origins back to Solomon's era.

3) Judaic theology (non-Hellenist and Hellenist alike) often got theological matters wrong.

4) Given #2, why should Gentile converts to Christ care about "true orthodox Judaism"?

 

[donadams]

I’m basically ignorant concerning the old covenant and these matters

A few questions if you don’t mind.

Why is it called Judaism? Did not God established the covenant with 12 tribes, Judah was only one tribe

After the loss of the ark from the temple they started the synagogue’s and rabbis is that correct?

What is the real authority of the rabbi? I thought they were just lay teachers

Did not the old covenant end with the coming of Christ and the establishment of the new covenant and officially at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

Thanks

How did John the Baptist participate in the Passover each year, he was told not to drink wine in Lk 3

 

[CherubRam]

Three observations and one question:

1) None of that defines "true orthodox Judaism."

2) Although generally ascribed to have begun 2nd century BC, the Sads traced their origins back to Solomon's era.

3) Judaic theology (non-Hellenist and Hellenist alike) often got theological matters wrong.

4) Given #2, why should Gentile converts to Christ care about "true orthodox Judaism"?

I find that all that you claim is not true.

Christianity is founded upon Orthodox Judaism under the New Covenant.

Yahshua and the Apostles were Orthodox Jews, and the did not believe in Trinitarianism or Hell.

Also, if Yahshua was hanged on a cross, then he did not fulfill prophecy. The Messiah was to be hanged upon a (poll, post, stake.) But not a cross.

 

[CherubRam]

Pole

Unable to edit spelling.

 

[donadams]

A cross is a tree, made from a tree and the conjunction of the Passover door post and lentil

 

[Josheb]

Christianity is founded upon Orthodox Judaism under the New Covenant.

I might agree if I had read a definition of "true orthodox Judaism" in this thread but it doesn't exist (I did make not of that fact). How do you expect anyone here to discuss "true Orthodox Judaism" if a definition of the term is not provided. What I think is orthodox may well be very different from what you think is orthodox. We'd end up talking right past one another....... and so will everyone else trying to discuss the subject with you because the terms was NOT defined and a shared definition doesn't exist among the members.

ALL on you.

Yahshua and the Apostles were Orthodox Jews...

You do not know that. You most definitely haven't evidenced it, much less proven it.

....and the did not believe in Trinitarianism

And yet John said the logos made flesh was God, Thomas called him God, the Jewish leaders were prepared to stone Jesus for making himself equal to God, Paul declared God's Spirit and Jesus' Spirit the same Spirit, and Luke reports the apostles all worshiped him.

or Hell.

I agree. Hell is a Gentiles concept very different from what Jesus taught.

Also, if Yahshua was hanged on a cross, then he did not fulfill prophecy.

Are you questioning the crucifixion?

The Messiah was to be hanged upon a (poll, post, stake.) But not a cross.

A cross is a pole. It just happens to have a crossbar attached.



The Jews go a bunch of stuff wrong.

1) Moses was told to go to Pharoah but Moses argued with God and as a consequence Aaron accompanied him. Moses ended up being the civic leader and Aaron the forerunner of the religious leadership. God had asked Moses to go by himself. Had Moses done so Moses would have been a priestly king, much as Melchizedek had been. The Jews ended up building their theology around that one act of disobedience. God later corrected the division by providing Israel with Judges; leaders who oversaw both the civil and religious rule.

2) The Jews asked God for a king like all the other nations had. God unequivocally told them no, but they persisted. God explicitly stated their desire for an earthly king was viewed as a rejection of Him as king. He told them what human king would do and every single one of them did exactly what God said. The Jews built their theology around this act of disobedience, too. As a consequence, they completely failed to recognize the Messiah when he stood right in front of them commanding creation. Some thought he was going to be an earthly king and high priest (the irony apparently escaping them all) while others saw fit to conspire to wrongfully murder him.

3) God told David that He would build His temple with His Son and a descendant of David's. David did not understand at that time God does not live in houses built by human hands. God told David to name his son Jedidiah but because God had said the one to build God's temple would be a man of peace, David ignored God and named his son Solomon, which means peace. David ignored his eldest sons and promoted Solomon to the throne - even though God had made it clear He did not want Israel to have an earthly king. The disobediently named Solomon then built a temple and built it so well that the stones were hewn so no mortal was needed to secure them together. He did that in direct defiance of God's command no hewn stones be used in His altars. Once again, this series of disobediences was instilled into Jewish theology and as a consequence they took pride in a man-made idol of dead stones and refused to believe God would or could live within a sinful human.

4) There's not a single record in the Bible of any Sadducee ever converting to Christ. At least three Pharisees are reported to convert. In other words, the older sect, the Sadducees, the more traditional sect, the Sadducees, the sect the first century Jews considered orthodox, the Sadducees never turned to Christ; only Pharisees. They turned out to be the more orthodox of the two sects! One of them became the greatest theologian in human history.


Messianic Judaism is an invention of a Baptist minister in the 1960s. He wanted Jewish converts to Christ to have a place where they could worship Christ while retaining their religious practices. He did so in complete defiance of the fact there are no Jews in Christ. There are no Gentiles in Christ. There is only Christ and those in Christ. So from my perspective you need to define your terms so the participants in this thread know what it is you are talking about and can use shared terms with shared meaning because there's no evidence you have any clue what orthodox Judaism looks like.


I did give you the opportunity to do so.


Acts 2:29-32
29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

When God promised David a descendant would sit on his throne He spoke of the resurrection. That is orthodox Judaism.

 

[CherubRam]

I’m basically ignorant concerning the old covenant and these matters

A few questions if you don’t mind.

Why is it called Judaism? Did not God established the covenant with 12 tribes, Judah was only one tribe

After the loss of the ark from the temple they started the synagogue’s and rabbis is that correct?

What is the real authority of the rabbi? I thought they were just lay teachers

Did not the old covenant end with the coming of Christ and the establishment of the new covenant and officially at the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

Thanks

How did John the Baptist participate in the Passover each year, he was told not to drink wine in Lk 3

Here is what Judaism is not. Hellenism, Kabbalah, Mysticism, Paganism, or Gnosticism. The joining of any worldliness to God is not Judaism, or True Christianity.


2 Corinthians 4:8
We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair;

All of those sides were either trying to destroy, or take over Christianity.

Matthew 11:12
From the days of John the Baptist until now, (the kingdom of heaven / this world) has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

• Matthew 3:2
  and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” (at hand / is here)
  
  
• Matthew 4:17
  From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” (at hand / is here)

Genesis 1:8
And God called the (firmament / Earth) Heaven.

 

[CherubRam]

I might agree if I had read a definition of "true orthodox Judaism" in this thread but it doesn't exist (I did make not of that fact). How do you expect anyone here to discuss "true Orthodox Judaism" if a definition of the term is not provided. What I think is orthodox may well be very different from what you think is orthodox. We'd end up talking right past one another....... and so will everyone else trying to discuss the subject with you because the terms was NOT defined and a shared definition doesn't exist among the members.

ALL on you.

You do not know that. You most definitely haven't evidenced it, much less proven it.

And yet John said the logos made flesh was God, Thomas called him God, the Jewish leaders were prepared to stone Jesus for making himself equal to God, Paul declared God's Spirit and Jesus' Spirit the same Spirit, and Luke reports the apostles all worshiped him.

I agree. Hell is a Gentiles concept very different from what Jesus taught.

Are you questioning the crucifixion?

A cross is a pole. It just happens to have a crossbar attached.



The Jews go a bunch of stuff wrong.

1) Moses was told to go to Pharoah but Moses argued with God and as a consequence Aaron accompanied him. Moses ended up being the civic leader and Aaron the forerunner of the religious leadership. God had asked Moses to go by himself. Had Moses done so Moses would have been a priestly king, much as Melchizedek had been. The Jews ended up building their theology around that one act of disobedience. God later corrected the division by providing Israel with Judges; leaders who oversaw both the civil and religious rule.

2) The Jews asked God for a king like all the other nations had. God unequivocally told them no, but they persisted. God explicitly stated their desire for an earthly king was viewed as a rejection of Him as king. He told them what human king would do and every single one of them did exactly what God said. The Jews built their theology around this act of disobedience, too. As a consequence, they completely failed to recognize the Messiah when he stood right in front of them commanding creation. Some thought he was going to be an earthly king and high priest (the irony apparently escaping them all) while others saw fit to conspire to wrongfully murder him.

3) God told David that He would build His temple with His Son and a descendant of David's. David did not understand at that time God does not live in houses built by human hands. God told David to name his son Jedidiah but because God had said the one to build God's temple would be a man of peace, David ignored God and named his son Solomon, which means peace. David ignored his eldest sons and promoted Solomon to the throne - even though God had made it clear He did not want Israel to have an earthly king. The disobediently named Solomon then built a temple and built it so well that the stones were hewn so no mortal was needed to secure them together. He did that in direct defiance of God's command no hewn stones be used in His altars. Once again, this series of disobediences was instilled into Jewish theology and as a consequence they took pride in a man-made idol of dead stones and refused to believe God would or could live within a sinful human.

4) There's not a single record in the Bible of any Sadducee ever converting to Christ. At least three Pharisees are reported to convert. In other words, the older sect, the Sadducees, the more traditional sect, the Sadducees, the sect the first century Jews considered orthodox, the Sadducees never turned to Christ; only Pharisees. They turned out to be the more orthodox of the two sects! One of them became the greatest theologian in human history.


Messianic Judaism is an invention of a Baptist minister in the 1960s. He wanted Jewish converts to Christ to have a place where they could worship Christ while retaining their religious practices. He did so in complete defiance of the fact there are no Jews in Christ. There are no Gentiles in Christ. There is only Christ and those in Christ. So from my perspective you need to define your terms so the participants in this thread know what it is you are talking about and can use shared terms with shared meaning because there's no evidence you have any clue what orthodox Judaism looks like.


I did give you the opportunity to do so.


Acts 2:29-32
29“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

When God promised David a descendant would sit on his throne He spoke of the resurrection. That is orthodox Judaism.

Throughout the bible the Jews kept joining what was impure to God. And after they were told many times not to do that.

God is not a Trinity, there is no Hell, and the word pole was replaced with the word cross.

The Vatican wanted Christ to be equal to God the father, because they say the Pope is Christ incarnate.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Here is what Judaism is not. Hellenism, Kabbalah, Mysticism, Paganism, or Gnosticism. The joining of any worldliness to God is not Judaism, or True Christianity.

I don't think you just get to make up your own definition of Judaism like that.

Kabbalah is certainly Jewish, and mysticism has been a part of Jewish thinking since before New Testament times. Gnosticism is a successor of Judaism, just as Christianity.

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[CherubRam]

I don't think you just get to make up your own definition of Judaism like that.

Kabbalah is certainly Jewish, and mysticism has been a part of Jewish thinking since before New Testament times. Gnosticism is a successor of Judaism, just as Christianity.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Deuteronomy 8:20
19 If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed. 20 Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God.

Ezekiel 20:32
“‘You say, “We want to be like the nations, like the peoples of the world, who serve wood and stone.” But what you have in mind will never happen.

Deuteronomy 18:10
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Deuteronomy 18:14
The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so.

Isaiah 2:6
You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob. They are full of superstitions from the East; they practice divination like the Philistines and embrace pagan customs.

 

[Josheb]

Here is what Judaism is not. Hellenism, Kabbalah, Mysticism, Paganism, or Gnosticism. The joining of any worldliness to God is not Judaism, or True Christianity.

It is not polka-dotted, striped, or florescent, either. What a thing is not tells us nothing about what it is. Can you tell us what is "true orthodox Judaism"?

2 Corinthians 4:8
We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair;

All of those sides were either trying to destroy, or take over Christianity.

No. If God is real and Christianity is from God then NOTHING was or ever will take over Christianity.

Matthew 11:12
From the days of John the Baptist until now, (the kingdom of heaven / this world) has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

• Matthew 3:2
  and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” (at hand / is here)
  
  
• Matthew 4:17
  From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” (at hand / is here)

Genesis 1:8
And God called the (firmament / Earth) Heaven.

Got a point to that, or are we randomly quoting scripture without making a point?

 

[Josheb]

Throughout the bible the Jews kept joining what was impure to God. And after they were told many times not to do that. God is not a Trinity, there is no Hell, and the word pole was replaced with the word cross. The Vatican wanted Christ to be equal to God the father, because they say the Pope is Christ incarnate.

I am still waiting for an answer to the one, single, solitary question asked.

How do you define true orthodox Judaism?

 

[CherubRam]

I am still waiting for an answer to the one, single, solitary question asked.

How do you define true orthodox Judaism?

True Orthodox Judaism is defined by NOT joining worldly beliefs to God.

 

[Eleanor]

I find that all that you claim is not true.

Christianity is founded upon Orthodox Judaism under the New Covenant.

Yahshua and the Apostles were Orthodox Jews, and the did not believe in Trinitarianism or Hell.

And since Jesus is the one who teaches of damnation in everlasting fire, they did not believe Jesus?

Also, if Yahshua was hanged on a cross, then he did not fulfill prophecy. The Messiah was to be hanged upon a (poll, post, stake.) But not a cross.

He was to be hanged on wood, which is tree, cross, pole, post, stake or whatever.

Your unbelief of the NT is showing.

 

[CherubRam]

And since Jesus is the one who teaches of damnation in everlasting fire, they did not believe Jesus?

He was to be hanged on wood, which is tree, cross, pole, post, stake or whatever.

Your unbelief of the NT is showing.

A cross is a pagan symbol.

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

1 Corinthians 1:23. NIV
23 but we preach Christ (crucified / staked out) a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Yahshua, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Stake

Stauroo
stauroó: to stake out.

Original Word: σταυρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: stauroó
Phonetic Spelling: (stow-ro'-o)
Definition: To fix to a stake; fig: To destroy, or mortify.

Stauros
stauros: an upright stake.

Original Word: σταυρός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stauros
Phonetic Spelling: (stow-ros')
Definition: a stake.


Sin hanged on a pole parable.
Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.


A cross is not a pole.

 

[CherubRam]

And since Jesus is the one who teaches of damnation in everlasting fire, they did not believe Jesus?

He was to be hanged on wood, which is tree, cross, pole, post, stake or whatever.

Your unbelief of the NT is showing.

The Cross as a Talisman

A talisman is an object that someone believes holds magical properties that brings good luck protecting the possessor from evil or harm.



A plenary indulgence removes all punishment due for sins. The Cross on the Catholics death bed is for that purpose.





Yahshua did not die on a "cross", but died upon a torture stake, for that is the meaning of the Greek word stauros, and is used interchangeably by the Bible writers with the Greek word xylon, translated as "tree" or "wood" by the King James Bible.(Acts 5:30)

For Yahshua to become the "accursed" one, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, it was required for him to die upon a "tree" or more literally a "stake", for Deuteronomy 21:22,23 says: " And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree.(Hebrew ‛ets´) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree (Hebrew ‛ets´), but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God."

The apostle Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 21:23, saying that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Greek xylon ):"(Gal 3:13, King James Bible)

Thus, the Hebrew word ‛ets´ corresponds to the Greek word xylon and means a timber, or a "beam". To show that this is the case, at 1 Kings 6:15, in building the temple, it said that Solomon, "from the floor of the house up to the rafters of the ceiling he overlaid (the walls) with timber (Hebrew ‛ets´) inside." Thus, "timber" ("a large piece of wood, usually squared, used in a building, for example, as a beam", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) of cedar was used to overlay the walls, and was upright "timber" of wood and not "cross" forms.

The online interlinear Scripture4all renders xylon as "wood". Another Greek word used for the instrument Yahshua died upon, stauros, is at Matthew 10:38; 16:24; 27:32, 40, 42 and is rendered as "pale"(online interlinear Scripture4all ), which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) That he died upon a "pole" or "stake", is that the apostle Peter said of Yahshua, that "we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:"(Acts 10:39, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon)

The apostle Paul told the Jews in Antioch in Pisidia, that "when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him (Yahshua) down from the tree." (Acts 13:29, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) The apostle Peter wrote: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."(1 Peter 2:24, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) Hence, Yahshua died upon a "tree" or "pale", a "stake", not cross.

The Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom.(Lev 13:56-59) The French Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel (Encyclopedic Universal Dictionary) says: “For a long time we believed that the cross, considered a religious symbol, was specifically for Christians. This is not the case.” The book Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum (1986) states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stau·ros´] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”

The New Strong's Concise Concordance & Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible states that the meaning of "stauros (4716) denotes, primarily , "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."(Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible, pg 75, 1999 edition)

Under the Hebrew word ‛ets´ (6086), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "tree; wood; timber; stick; stalk." It goes on to say that "this word may signify a single "tree," as it does in Gen. 2:9; or a genus of tree, Isa. 41:19. ‛ets´ can mean "wood as a material from which things are constructed, as a raw material to be carved, Exod. 31:5. Large unprocessed pieces of "wood or timber" are also signified by ‛ets´, Hag 1:8. The end product of wood already processed and fashioned into something may be indicated by ‛ets´, Lev 11:32. This word means "stick" or "piece of wood" in Ezek. 37:16...‛ets´ one time means "stalk," Josh. 2:6."(pg 387)

And under the Greek word xylon (3586), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood," is used, with the rendering "tree,"....the tree being the stauros, the upright pale or stake to which Romans nailed those who were thus to be executed, Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; 1 Pet 2:24."(pg 387-88)

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

 

[Josheb]

True Orthodox Judaism is defined by NOT joining worldly beliefs to God.

No, it;s not. true orthodox Judaism is defined by what it does, not by what it does not do. Thesis. Antithesis. The entire thread has been spent of antithesis and not a single positive, affirmative thesis has been asserted despite several requests to do so.

Title asserted.

Nothing affirmative about the title posted.

Abject failure to address any of the very serious and very real problems within Jewish theology. Abject failure to post a single word about the Trinity other than the one single baseless sentence, "God is not a Trinity, there is no Hell, and the word pole was replaced with the word cross."

For the record: it was orthodox Jews who replaced the word "pole" with "cross," and I have yet to see any evidence you have any more knowledge, understanding, insight, wisdom, or authority then they do.

Originally posted yesterday: Three observations and one question:

1) None of that defines "true orthodox Judaism."

2) Although generally ascribed to have begun 2nd century BC, the Sads traced their origins back to Solomon's era.

3) Judaic theology (non-Hellenist and Hellenist alike) often got theological matters wrong.

4) Given #2, why should Gentile converts to Christ care about "true orthodox Judaism"?

Still waiting.

The Trinity will not be disproved using claims of "true orthodox Judaism" if the term is never defined, the facts of history are incorrect, and a pile of doctrines within Judaism are false, but I was willing to give it a read. Define your terms and then address the problem of Judaic theology being seriously flawed.

Last chance.

 

[Eleanor]

A cross is a pagan symbol.

So?
So is the sun.
Tell it to the Romans.

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

1 Corinthians 1:23. NIV
23 but we preach Christ (crucified / staked out) a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Yahshua, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 10:39
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Stake

Stauroo
stauroó: to stake out.

Original Word: σταυρόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: stauroó
Phonetic Spelling: (stow-ro'-o)
Definition: To fix to a stake; fig: To destroy, or mortify.

Stauros
stauros: an upright stake.

Original Word: σταυρός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: stauros
Phonetic Spelling: (stow-ros')
Definition: a stake.

Sin hanged on a pole parable.
Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”
Numbers 21:9
So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
A cross is not a pole.

And Moses' staff is not a parable, it is a symbol, type, figure, pattern.
Any serious knowledge of the Bible is lacking here

 

[Eleanor]

The Cross as a Talisman

A talisman is an object that someone believes holds magical properties that brings good luck protecting the possessor from evil or harm.

In my neck of the woods, being nailed to a cross is not considered good luck.

How does it work in your neck of the woods?

Strange stuff, here.