Trinitarian

[Carbon]

Covenant Theology is strongly Trinitarian since it maintains that in the unity of the Godhead, there is a Trinity of Persons working out redemption. Herein lies its excellence.
It presents God redeeming fallen man to Himself, by Himself, and through Himself,

Isaiah 48:16,
Draw near to me, hear this:
from the beginning I have not spoken in secret,
from the time it came to be I have been there.”
And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

Gal 4:4-6,
4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”

Eph 1:3-14,
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[Josheb]

Let's not forget the "us" of creation, when God said "Let 'us' make man in our image...." Because the angelic host are also created creatures without creative power, and we have no record of them being created in God's image they cannot be said to be part of the Creator "us." Let's also not forget John's preamble to his gospel in which he quotes from Philo's commentary on Alexander the Great as the logos of God who was just a man to say Jesus is the logos, the logos who was with God in the beginning and the logos that IS God. While neither of these occasions is explicitly stated to be a covenant relationship the conditions of a covenant are found in both passages and we have Paul's commentary informing us God's covenant promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, with that seed being Jesus.

The covenant promises were spoken to Jesus, the logos of God who is God and he was foreknown prior to the creation of the world (before any humans had yet been made), to be the perfect sacrifice through whom - alone - the resurrection and coming to God would be found.

 

[CherubRam]

Let's not forget the "us" of creation, when God said "Let 'us' make man in our image...." Because the angelic host are also created creatures without creative power, and we have no record of them being created in God's image they cannot be said to be part of the Creator "us." Let's also not forget John's preamble to his gospel in which he quotes from Philo's commentary on Alexander the Great as the logos of God who was just a man to say Jesus is the logos, the logos who was with God in the beginning and the logos that IS God. While neither of these occasions is explicitly stated to be a covenant relationship the conditions of a covenant are found in both passages and we have Paul's commentary informing us God's covenant promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed, with that seed being Jesus.

The covenant promises were spoken to Jesus, the logos of God who is God and he was foreknown prior to the creation of the world (before any humans had yet been made), to be the perfect sacrifice through whom - alone - the resurrection and coming to God would be found.

Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.


"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.


Theion means "Divine Eternal."
Theiotēs means "Divine Nature."
Theotēs means " Divine Bodily."

 

[Josheb]

Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.

"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.

Theion means "Divine Eternal."
Theiotēs means "Divine Nature."
Theotēs means " Divine Bodily."

Do you think before you post?

Wrongly imagining selective bold-face highlights is persuasive is foolishness and exposes bias. Nothing more. The Hebrew word from which we get the "us," is "naaseh," a word that means "to make," and it is conjugated in plural form, not single for. That means it is not "I make," but "we make," or "us make." Furthermore, "our" and "their" are two vastly different renderings and the "our" confirms the multiple aspect of the God who is elsewhere stated to be one. The third problem is there is no plural "our" followed by a single image. It would have to be "My," not "our" for any non-trin pov.

The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there. "Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.

No one said it was there. The plural conjugation of the one God plural making is what is asserted, and it is asserted because that is what is in the Hebrew text. Because the one God is making in plural form in reference to His singular image, the us is appropriate and correct. Even the Hebrew Pentateuch translates it that way.

Theion means "Divine Eternal."
Theiotēs means "Divine Nature."
Theotēs means " Divine Bodily."

And all three are Greek, not Hebrew.



Please do not waste my time (or anyone else's for that matter) with a response as lame as this one. Be as critical of your own sources as you are of my posts because if you'd been an equal opportunity unbiased critic that post wouldn't be here.

 

[CherubRam]

Do you think before you post?

Wrongly imagining selective bold-face highlights is persuasive is foolishness and exposes bias. Nothing more. The Hebrew word from which we get the "us," is "naaseh," a word that means "to make," and it is conjugated in plural form, not single for. That means it is not "I make," but "we make," or "us make." Furthermore, "our" and "their" are two vastly different renderings and the "our" confirms the multiple aspect of the God who is elsewhere stated to be one. The third problem is there is no plural "our" followed by a single image. It would have to be "My," not "our" for any non-trin pov.

No one said it was there. The plural conjugation of the one God plural making is what is asserted, and it is asserted because that is what is in the Hebrew text. Because the one God is making in plural form in reference to His singular image, the us is appropriate and correct. Even the Hebrew Pentateuch translates it that way.

And all three are Greek, not Hebrew.



Please do not waste my time (or anyone else's for that matter) with a response as lame as this one. Be as critical of your own sources as you are of my posts because if you'd been an equal opportunity unbiased critic that post wouldn't be here.

I spoke as a matter of fact and did not voice my opinion.

 

[Josheb]

I spoke as a matter of fact and did not voice my opinion.

Scripture states otherwise. There weren't any facts in that post; just red herrings, straw men, non sequitur and falsehood. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt calling it an opinion because otherwise it's just baseless falsehood and if you knew the "us" came from the plural naaseh before you posted and posted otherwise then that makes it lies. Your "facts" are not facts, and you should examine your sources better for both content and method before posting. Seriously. I just timed it. I took me 20.01 seconds to look up the Hebrew. Retype Posts 3 and 5 while timing yourself because that's how much time you'd have saved if you'd have taken 20 seconds to check before posting. It is a recurring fact of scripture the Hebrew descriptions of the God that is one are often conjugated in the plural (and angels are created creatures, not creators of humanity).

Either way, take it up with someone else because I've no interested in that nonsense.

 

[CherubRam]

Scripture states otherwise. There weren't any facts in that post; just red herrings, straw men, non sequitur and falsehood. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt calling it an opinion because otherwise it's just baseless falsehood and if you knew the "us" came from the plural naaseh before you posted and posted otherwise then that makes it lies. Your "facts" are not facts, and you should examine your sources better for both content and method before posting. Seriously. I just timed it. I took me 20.01 seconds to look up the Hebrew. Retype Posts 3 and 5 while timing yourself because that's how much time you'd have saved if you'd have taken 20 seconds to check before posting. It is a recurring fact of scripture the Hebrew descriptions of the God that is one are often conjugated in the plural (and angels are created creatures, not creators of humanity).

Either way, take it up with someone else because I've no interested in that nonsense.

You have a lot of studying to do.

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede.

To translate three different Greek words as one word and deviously incorrect at that in the King James Bible, is no different than translating in the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ol´ with three different English words of "hell" (10 times), "grave" (31 times), and "pit" (3 times).

This is not unlike having three different names for one street on a map (with the real name hidden), so that when a person used it, he wound up lost. Likewise of those who read Bibles with "Godhead" in it, thereby misleading a person that the trinity is "real".

Hence, the need for an accurate Bible, one that renders Hebrew and Greek words and phrases with a high degree of precision, just as a map that can be counted on to provide exact information. Unfortunately, many Bibles follow the lead of the King James Bible, or is otherwise biased, because the trinity, along with a host of other religious teachings that are not true, that has such a strangle hold on so many.

KJV
Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


NIV
Acts 17:29
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

 

[Josheb]

You have a lot of studying to do.

Nice ad hominem.

What part of "take it up with someone else because I've no interested in that nonsense" did I not make sufficiently clear for you to understand?

 

[CherubRam]

Nice ad hominem.

What part of "take it up with someone else because I've no interested in that nonsense" did I not make sufficiently clear for you to understand?

I see that you have issues to pray about. Have a nice day.

 

[makesends]

Genesis 1:26,27
(Elohiym / God of the living ones)
God of the living ones spoke, making man in (our / their) image and likeness. "Let him dominate the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, the livestock animals, and all the earth, and every land animal that walks the earth." 27 So God of the living ones created mankind in His own image, in the image of God of the living ones, He created them; male and female He created them.
The words "let us" in Hebrew are AIT. In other words, not really there.


"Let us" is AIT. It is not in scriptures.


Theion means "Divine Eternal."
Theiotēs means "Divine Nature."
Theotēs means " Divine Bodily."

What is AIT?

The interlinear below says, "Let us..."

Genesis 1:26 Interlinear: And God saith, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is cr

biblehub.com

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Josheb,

Let's not forget the "us" of creation, when God said "Let 'us' make man in our image...." Because the angelic host are also created creatures without creative power, and we have no record of them being created in God's image they cannot be said to be part of the Creator "us."

Despite your claim and strong denial, I consider the "us", "our", "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. This is confirmed when David quotes, alludes to and summarises Genesis 1:26-28:
Genesis 1:26–28 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psalm 8:4–8 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou (Yahweh verse 1) hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

David uses the language and ideas and framework of the Genesis creation to speak about the New Creation in and through Jesus, who also was made a little lower than the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

Greetings Josheb,

Despite your claim and strong denial, I consider the "us", "our", "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. This is confirmed when David quotes, alludes to and summarises Genesis 1:26-28:
Genesis 1:26–28 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psalm 8:4–8 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou (Yahweh verse 1) hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

David uses the language and ideas and framework of the Genesis creation to speak about the New Creation in and through Jesus, who also was made a little lower than the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

I would question the idea of another invisible source of faith called angels used as a form of creating. God living word that works in us alone is the source of Christian faith.

The english word is "messenger" in both the old and new testament. Hebrew and Greek . The word angel was made up by those who seek after disembodied workers with a familiar spirit gods a legion .Today some call "patron saints" (3500 and rising official)

Rachel was guilty for hiding the family idol images as was King Saul when God stopped communing with him. She the wizard saw many gods (legion) come up

Josiah moved by the Spirit of faith (Christ's) as it is writen made desolate the abomination of desolation. The man of sin, Satan uses mankind called a daysman in Job 9.

The Pope who is called Holy Father, Holy See, our vicar christ, our holiness . . etc. sitting in the place of our invisible Holy Father in heaven .

We worship one manner( Matthew 6) our Holy Father in heaven not a legion of deceived fathers that some call angels disembodied spirits gods .

2 Kings 23:23-25King James Version But in the eighteenth year of king Josiah, wherein this passover was holden to the Lord in Jerusalem. Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the house of the Lord. And like unto him was there no king before him, that turned to the Lord with all his heart, and with all his soul, and with all his might, according to all the law of Moses; neither after him arose there any like him.

 

[Fred]

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/yahweh-301-302-or-trinity-301-302.1026/page-4#post-38390

 

[makesends]

Greetings Josheb,

Despite your claim and strong denial, I consider the "us", "our", "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels. This is confirmed when David quotes, alludes to and summarises Genesis 1:26-28:
Genesis 1:26–28 (KJV): 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Psalm 8:4–8 (KJV): 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels (Hebrew Elohim), and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou (Yahweh verse 1) hast put all things under his feet: 7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field; 8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

David uses the language and ideas and framework of the Genesis creation to speak about the New Creation in and through Jesus, who also was made a little lower than the Angels.

Kind regards
Trevor

Do you not understand what "create" means? This is logically the work of First Cause alone. Angels can arguably be 'creative' but they logically cannot create, being creatures themselves. They are effects of First Cause, and not little first causes themselves.

 

[Josheb]

Greetings Josheb,

Despite your claim and strong denial, I consider the "us", "our", "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels.

I do not care what you consider if and when what you consider is not in God's word.

Show me where God involved the angels to participate in the creation of humans. While you are at it, show me the scriptures that state created creatures like angels have creative powers. Show me the scriptures that state angels bear the image of God. Show me the scriptures that state humans bear the image of angels. Do not assume these things. Prove them. And prove them in a manner that does not contradict John 1:3, Col. 1:1 and 2:10, and Heb. 11:3 where it is stated God, not God+created+creatures, created all that has been made.

This is confirmed when David quotes, alludes to and summarises Genesis 1:26-28: [appeal to Psalm 8]

David uses the language and ideas and framework of the Genesis creation to speak about the New Creation in and through Jesus, who also was made a little lower than the Angels.

Yes, and David's "use" is soteriological, not ontological. This is Bible 103. It's not Bible 101, or Bible 102. It's something understood only once the New Testament is read and the introduction of new language is recognized and understood. The language of "Father", "Son," and "Holy Spirit," or "Separate and Sacred Spirit" (because that is what the word "holy" means) is New Testament language, not OT language. It has to do with the specific purpose for Jesus' entrance into creation. He was the logos of God that is God who was with God in the beginning (which would place his existence prior to that of the angels) and was made flesh in what we now call the first century. These labels, "Father," "Son," and "Spirit," are soteriological and eschatological. They are not used in the OT and they are not used for any other purpose in the whole of scripture. Neglecting or ignoring that fact leads to error.

More importantly and saliently, Jesus being made a little lower than the angels when he pre-existed their creation is easily and readily explained in Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:5-8
.....Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, he humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

• He could have considered equality with God something to be grasped but did not do so.
• He emptied himself (he was not emptied by another).
• He took on the form of a bondservant (he was not made or otherwise forced to do so by another).
• He took on the form of a bondservant (he was not inherently a bondservant, not in debt, and not in service to any debt).
• Taking on that form of bondservant, he was made in the likeness of men (that likeness was something to which he - having already existed - was made).
• Having the appearance of a human male, he humbled himself, and humbled himself to the point of death (he was not humbled by someone or something else).

And the simple fact is that nearly every attribute assigned to God in the OT is subsequently assigned to Jesus in the NT. Within the context of OT scripture and Jewish theology those comparisons would have been heretical, complete lies, unless true and correct. That would make every Christian who believes those scriptures exactly as written heretics too.

John 5:14-18
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, "Behold, you have become well; do not sin anymore, so that nothing worse happens to you." The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. For this reason, the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I myself am working." For this reason, therefore, the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because he not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.


If their judgment was correct and someone calling God their Father made them equal to God then Jesus was equal to God. If Jesus was correct in calling God his Father (after all, he was conceived by God's Separate and Sacred Spirit), then he was equal with God. If, on the other hand, Jesus was not correct, an especially so if he was lying, then he is not the perfect sacrifice, and we are all still dead in sin with no hope of salvation.

Greetings Josheb,

Despite your claim and strong denial, I consider the "us", "our", "our" is the One God, Yahweh, God the Father inviting the Angels to participate in the creation of man in the image and after the likeness of God and the Angels.

Scripture proves otherwise and it does so many times in many diverse ways.

 

[Josheb]

Do you not understand what "create" means?

I do.

This is logically the work of First Cause alone.

I completely agree. The work of the "First Cause alone" was the work of an "us."

Angels can arguably be 'creative' but they logically cannot create, being creatures themselves.

I completely agree. They most definitely cannot create ex nihilo and as far as I can read in the Bible creatures are not creators. There is only one Creator, and that Creator is an us, and the Creator's many attributes are assigned to Jesus throughout the NT. That means either the entire NT is heretical, or it is true and correct exactly as written and Jesus is among the "us" of the creation creating Creator that is one.

They are effects of First Cause, and not little first causes themselves.

If by "they" you mean "angels," then, again, I agree - mostly. I'm not sure it can be argued angels are creative. It can easily be argued humans are creative and that might be part of what it means to be made in God's image, but angels are not described with the same volitional and ontological diversity with which humans are described. I know that's an argument from silence but the silence with which scripture speaks about the heavenly host contrasts and compares to the plethora of voice with which scripture speaks about humanity. Neither am I confident the angelic host could correctly be assigned the faculty of secondary causation because they either do what they are told, or their actions have not eternal consequence and whatever contingency might ensue serves only God's purpose and never their own. I'm not sure I'd call that causation, especially not in comparison to that occurring by either the word of God or human action. Keep in mind: one day some of us will judge the angels and they are the ministering spirits sent to serve us, those saved by Jesus.

While I believe I understand your use of "First Cause," take care remember that "Cause" is a Divine Person with cognitive, emotional, volitional, behavioral and relational attributes and faculties and not impersonal. Include the word "Agent." Reification of the first cause apart from the agency of God is incorrect.

They are effects of First Cause.....

Creation is the logical work of the First Causal Agent . Angels are the work of The Casual Agent and not causal agents in and of themselves.


But....


...that very condition of causal agency is assigned to Jesus!

Colossians 1:13-20
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross; through him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

It was all decided and foreknown prior to creation.

1 Peter 1:17-21
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

God knew someone before they existed? Not God knew about someone before their existence, He knew the person.

Angels did not make humans and they most definitely not make Jesus.

 

[makesends]

I do.

I completely agree. The work of the "First Cause alone" was the work of an "us."

I don't know if you are just agreeing here, or if you took me to be somehow criticizing of what you said. I only quoted @TrevorL who had quoted you. That's why it looks like I quoted you. I was responding to Trevor. I completely agree with what you had said, or at least, what I remember you saying.

 

[makesends]

Angels can arguably be 'creative' but they logically cannot create, being creatures themselves.

They are effects of First Cause, and not little first causes themselves.

If by "they" you mean "angels," then, again, I agree - mostly. I'm not sure it can be argued angels are creative. It can easily be argued humans are creative and that might be part of what it means to be made in God's image, but angels are not described with the same volitional and ontological diversity with which humans are described. I know that's an argument from silence but the silence with which scripture speaks about the heavenly host contrasts and compares to the plethora of voice with which scripture speaks about humanity.

Interesting you bring that up in this context. Love it.

My brother says he thinks of angels as sort of like puppy dogs, in love with their master, and unable to mean any rebellion, and "wishing to look into these things" but unable to understand what apparently humans alone will ever be able to understand about God and God's purposes/will/acts. They instinctively choose to do what God orders them to do. It may be argued, (true, from silence), that they no longer have free will to even choose to disobey, nor the demons to repent and once again submit.

Neither am I confident the angelic host could correctly be assigned the faculty of secondary causation because they either do what they are told, or their actions have not eternal consequence and whatever contingency might ensue serves only God's purpose and never their own. I'm not sure I'd call that causation, especially not in comparison to that occurring by either the word of God or human action. Keep in mind: one day some of us will judge the angels and they are the ministering spirits sent to serve us, those saved by Jesus.

Wandering OT here, but in short, I don't see this, though I think I follow what you mean. To me, logic is simpler than that: God caused them, and they act. Therefore, though they are effects, they are also causes, else God would not have made and used them. However, yes, they are means of God doing whatsoever comes to pass.

While I believe I understand your use of "First Cause," take care remember that "Cause" is a Divine Person with cognitive, emotional, volitional, behavioral and relational attributes and faculties and not impersonal. Include the word "Agent." Reification of the first cause apart from the agency of God is incorrect.

I don't like "agent" when speaking of God. It implies too easily to the self-determinist that God is only another resident of reality —like us, though considerably stronger than us, top dog in this economy of existence— one who takes what comes to it (what it finds already existing) and acts upon it, instead of being The One who created and sustains all fact. But I do get your point, and it is something I will try to bear in mind. (I love cold logic because it can't be beat. But I do find myself having to point out (rather often) that God is immanent, very much involved in the continued existence of all fact, and his decree is not at all the same as the "fatalism" inferred by the self-determinist.)

But I find myself objecting, not to what you mean, but to the sound of the words, "cognitive, emotional, volitional, behavioral and relational attributes and faculties" when applied to God. These are OUR words and concepts; WE are the ones who are unavoidably anthropomorphizing God. In God, they are all one, and though we must deal with each as its own thing, it is not, really —in God, that is.

 

[Josheb]

I don't like "agent" when speaking of God. It implies too easily to the self-determinist that God is only another resident of reality —like us, though considerably stronger than us..........

Understandable and astute observation.

The "personalness" and agency of God is important. Along with the omni-attributes of God this is what separates the Gd of the Bible from all other gods and religions in the world. The western gods, the gods of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Norse, Celts, etc. have eyes and ears, thoughts and emotions and other faculties humans possess. The problem is none of them are all powerful. Zeus is always arguing with Poseidon, who is trying to get one over on Hera, who is bickering with Pluto, who is trying to scam Ra, who is upset with Thor who is trying to hit on Brigid and Cerdiwen because Aphrodite and Isis won't give him the time of day because Molech and Ba'al are killing babies to show they are badder than Shiva. None of them are truly all powerful.

They are personal but not infinite.

This stands in stark opposition to the "gods" of the east. Those gods are without form, they not only lack eyes and ears but they have no will or purpose. They are the eternal forces of the universe with which one must align one's life if enlightenment is to be obtained.

They are infinite but not personal.

Only the God of the Bible is infinite and personal, and that proves a problem for the non-trin views because the God who is ontologically love and just cannot be either absent personal relationship. He must be an us or His own claims about Himself prove nonsensical.

But I find myself objecting, not to what you mean, but to the sound of the words, "cognitive, emotional, volitional, behavioral and relational attributes and faculties" when applied to God. These are OUR words and concepts; WE are the ones who are unavoidably anthropomorphizing God.

Incorrect. God, in His own Word, using His own words states He has thoughts. He labels His emotions and speaks explicitly of His will and His action. Throughout the Bible from beginning to end relationship is asserted and described beginning with the implications of Genesis 1:1 = the Creator is not creation and there is a relationship between the Creator and all that He created that described in every ensuing page of His word.

In God, they are all one, and though we must deal with each as its own thing, it is not, really —in God, that is.

Yes, all of God is one. God and God alone is wholly integrated and "one" in ways we cannot be, but that does not preclude our ability to discuss any one of His many (infinite and wholly integrated) faculties. The fundamental premise of the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is three Persons each with their own thoughts, emotions, choices, and actions that are all wholly integrated and one with each other. One God that is an Us.

 

[CherubRam]

What is AIT?

The interlinear below says, "Let us..."

Genesis 1:26 Interlinear: And God saith, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness, and let them rule over fish of the sea, and over fowl of the heavens, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that is cr

biblehub.com

AIT means Assisting In Translation. In other words, those words are not in the original writings.