The Worship of Images & Popes

[Bob Carabbio]

So the children of Israel making petitions to the king thru Esther have intentions of worshipping her?

Essentially.

And the queen (the mother of the king) in the line of David presents the petitions to her son the king are intending to worship her?

Makes no sense.

Matt 15:25 not public worship of God by the church the communion of saints

Worship is worship, and hair splitting is hair splitting. ROMAN CATHOLICS WORSHIP their "MARY THING", and LIE about not worshipping it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Bob Carabbio will be ignored.

Bye!!!

 

[donadams]

Essentially.

Makes no sense.

Worship is worship, and hair splitting is hair splitting. ROMAN CATHOLICS WORSHIP their "MARY THING", and LIE about not worshipping it.

No sense?


1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

In the line of David the mother of the king is queen and presents the petitions to her son the king

 

[Bob Carabbio]

No sense?


1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

In the line of David the mother of the king is queen and presents the petitions to her son the king

Why would you assume that the REAL MARY (not the Roman Catholic "caricature") has anything to do with us humans, any more than any other physically dead woman. the REAL BIBLICAL Mary isn't a "Queen", she's Jesus' Mom.

 

[donadams]

Why would you assume that the REAL MARY (not the Roman Catholic "caricature") has anything to do with us humans, any more than any other physically dead woman. the REAL BIBLICAL Mary isn't a "Queen", she's Jesus' Mom.

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Mother of the king is queen!

Psalm 45:9 …upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Son of David the king: royalty!

Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 9:27
And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Matt 12:23
Matt 15:22
Matt 20:30
Matt 20:31
Matt 21:9-15 etc.

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

House of David the king:

Lk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Received the kingdom of David:

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Christ is King, Mary must be queen!

Only a queen can bear a king!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33 the queen mother sits at His right hand and receives the petitions of the members of the kingdom!

The mother of any king is automatically queen and rules half the kingdom!
The queen mother!

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.

30 And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God.

Mary is mother of mercy and the throne of grace!
heb 4:16

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen!
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And Jesus is the king of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints, so Mary is queen of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints!

so Mary too is the fruit of the merits, virtues, & graces provided by Christ! Lk 1:47 Mary also saved by God



2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

Heb 2:7

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun.
Crown of stars = queen Mary


David the king carried the ark to the earthly Jerusalem.
2 Sam 6:15-16

Jesus the new king carried His ark to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
(Assumption of Mary into heaven and crowned with glory!)
Inaugurating the kingdom!


1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

ONLY A KING AND A QUEEN SIT ON A THRONE!

Thanks

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:


Mother of the king is queen!

Psalm 45:9 …upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

Son of David the king: royalty!

Matt 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 9:27
And when Jesus departed thence, two blind men followed him, crying, and saying, Thou son of David, have mercy on us.

Matt 12:23
Matt 15:22
Matt 20:30
Matt 20:31
Matt 21:9-15 etc.

Romans 1:3
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

House of David the king:

Lk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

Received the kingdom of David:

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Christ is King, Mary must be queen!

Only a queen can bear a king!

A Royal greeting!

Lk 1:28 is the only place in the Bible where such a greeting takes place!
Mary is of the tribe of Judah and the royal house of David the king!

God himself is greeting Mary thru the instrument of the angel Gabriel!

This is a Royal greeting of the queen of heaven and earth! Queen of the angels and saints! Mary is of the house of king David!

In the line of king David the mother of the king is the queen, as Jesus Christ is the king of heaven and earth and the angels and saints so Mary is the queen of the same! Lk 1:32-33 the queen mother sits at His right hand and receives the petitions of the members of the kingdom!

The mother of any king is automatically queen and rules half the kingdom!
The queen mother!

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

29 And when she had heard, she was troubled in his word, and thought what manner salutation this was.

30 And the angel said to her, Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found favor with God.

Mary is mother of mercy and the throne of grace!
heb 4:16

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!

Queen of heaven
In the line of david’s kingdom the mother of the king is always queen!
Jesus is king Lk 1:32-33
And Jesus is the king of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints, so Mary is queen of heaven & earth & all the angels & saints!

so Mary too is the fruit of the merits, virtues, & graces provided by Christ! Lk 1:47 Mary also saved by God



2 Tim 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

2 Tim 2: 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. How much more Mary who was prepared by God thru the immaculate conception! Lk 1:49

Heb 2:7

Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands

Rev12:1 woman clothed with the sun.
Crown of stars = queen Mary


David the king carried the ark to the earthly Jerusalem.
2 Sam 6:15-16

Jesus the new king carried His ark to the heavenly Jerusalem! Rev 12:1
(Assumption of Mary into heaven and crowned with glory!)
Inaugurating the kingdom!


1 kings 2:19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

ONLY A KING AND A QUEEN SIT ON A THRONE!

Thanks

WOW!!! that's quite a collection of meaningless Catholic foolishness.

Mary (when she was physically alive, was an obedient Jewish Gal, who was chosen by God to be the Human host of His only begotten Son. She apparently didn't really have a CLUE what all that meant (Mark 3:21, 31-35) probably until later when she became a Christian (That event isn't recorded, but under Johns' care, she probably did, since she's found in the company of Christians).

Pretty much EVERYTHING the Roman Catholics teach about Mary is pure heretical GARBAGE, quite possibly a re-purposing of the Roman Goddess Diana, who appears to have much in common with the Catholic "Mary thing"..

 

[donadams]

WOW!!! that's quite a collection of meaningless Catholic foolishness.

Mary (when she was physically alive, was an obedient Jewish Gal, who was chosen by God to be the Human host of His only begotten Son. She apparently didn't really have a CLUE what all that meant (Mark 3:21, 31-35) probably until later when she became a Christian (That event isn't recorded, but under Johns' care, she probably did, since she's found in the company of Christians).

Pretty much EVERYTHING the Roman Catholics teach about Mary is pure heretical GARBAGE, quite possibly a re-purposing of the Roman Goddess Diana, who appears to have much in common with the Catholic "Mary thing"..

Then you must accept Protestant doctrine and spiritual anarchy against Christ and his church!

Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24 eph 5:32


The church is of divine origin and cannot be corrupted or reformed by the tradition of men! Truth is immutable!

The church the only ark of salvation, the household of faith and is not spiritual to the exclusion of the physical or invisible to the exclusion of the visible but, visible, invisible, spiritual, physical, and supernatural of divine origin and therefore divine preservation! Matt 16:18-19 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13 Jn 10:16

A city set on a hill: Matt 5:14
Light of the world: Matt 5:14
Pillar of truth: 1 Tim 3:15
Teach and sanctify all men: Matt 28:19

Only Christ has authority to establish the church! Matt 16:18-19
One church! Jn 10:16 All others are sects “full of errors” “the tradition of men”! The new covenant Church is the eternal city of God! Household of faith! The pillar and ground of TRUTH! 1 Tim 3:15 Founded by Christ alone! Matt 16:18 on Peter and the apostles! Eph 2:20

All these and more Tried to destroy the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST and failed!

FAILED COMPLETELY!

Roman Empire:
Barbarians:
Heretics:
Protestant fundamentalists:
Atheists:
Communists:
Modernists:

All failed but eternal church of Christ remains! Lk 1:32-33

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Matt 28:19) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13)

Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!



When was the “time of reformation” According to scripture?

The time of Christ?
Or the time of Martin Luther?

Heb 9:10 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant and it is of divine origin and CANNOT be reformed!!!

Thanks

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Then you must accept Protestant doctrine and spiritual anarchy against Christ and his church!

NEVER!! what makes you think that "Protestant doctrine" is in any way against CHrist, and His church???

OH - that's right!!! You've been trained to believe that the "Roman Catholic Religious system" is Jesus' "CHurch on earth". SInce it isn't, there's no problem.

NO VISIBLE CHURCH SYSTEM has ever fully embodied the reality and fullness of the genuine CHurch of Jesus Christ, which is, always has been and always will be, the Pillar and Ground of the TRUTH.

All failed but eternal church of Christ remains! Lk 1:32-33

ABSOLUTELY!! and will remain till the end of the age!! You should really try to find out what CHURCH your talking about!!!

 

[donadams]

NEVER!! what makes you think that "Protestant doctrine" is in any way against CHrist, and His church???

OH - that's right!!! You've been trained to believe that the "Roman Catholic Religious system" is Jesus' "CHurch on earth". SInce it isn't, there's no problem.

NO VISIBLE CHURCH SYSTEM has ever fully embodied the reality and fullness of the genuine CHurch of Jesus Christ, which is, always has been and always will be, the Pillar and Ground of the TRUTH.

ABSOLUTELY!! and will remain till the end of the age!! You should really try to find out what CHURCH your talking about!!!

The so-called reformers with no authority (none are apostles) reject Christ and his church and started new churches with new doctrine

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines ofdevils;

When was the “time of reformation” According to scripture?

The time of Christ?
Or the time of Martin Luther?

Heb 9:10 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant and it is of divine origin and CANNOT be reformed by the tradition of men!!!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The so-called reformers with no authority (none are apostles) reject Christ and his church and started new churches with new doctrine

Biblical doctrine, in fact. "Apostolic succession" is nothing but another Roman Catholic Pipe dream.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines ofdevils;

AND the "Catholic church" did just that, and only got worse when they tossed the "Orthodox" folks under the bus, and grabbed the primacy. Rome has been mixing pagan theologies (like their plessed virgin thing, and Purgatorial sanctification to mention a couple) into their version of "Christianity" for centuries, making their : "Tradition" of supreme value and denigrating the Biblical record.

When was the “time of reformation” According to scripture?

The time of Christ?
Or the time of Martin Luther?

Word games.

The time of Christ was the the introduction of a NEW COVENANT in Jesus blood. there was no "Reformation". The jewish temple and it's ceremonies were immediately made useless and obsolete, since they had been only "Shadows" of the coming reality (you do remember that the Temple Veil was destroyed, don't you). The old Jewish religious system wasn't "Reformed" - it was simply discarded outright in favor of the REAL solution to the "Sin Problem" in humanity - Jesus' perfect SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10) on the Cross.

The "REFORMATION" headed by Luther under the unction of the Holy SPirit was to correct the man created CORRUPTION that the Roman Religious system had fallen into, and to restore the MOST IMPORTANT TRUTH that Rome had discarded - i.e. SALVATION BY FAITH, not by "works".

Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant and it is of divine origin and CANNOT be reformed by the tradition of men!!!

Except that the "Holy Roman Catholic" religious system did exactly that, and CONTINUES to do it today. We all know that Rome is in Chaos, trying to figure out what to do with their present "Pope thing".

Luther (and others) simply put the visible church back on the rails that Jesus had died for, and that it belonged on - back to the proper ways, that had been forgotten/discarded by Rome.

 

[donadams]

Please explain


The scripture says many of the same things of the apostolic church as it does Christ!

Light of the world: Jn 8:12 / Matt 5:14
Hear: Matt 17:5 acts 3:22 / Matt 18:17
Authority: Matt 28:17 / Jn 20:21
Reconciliation: 2 cor 5:19 / 2 cor 5:18
Forgive sins: Lk 5:20 / Jn 20:23

Truth: Jn 14:6 / 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ and His church are one acts 9:4 eph 5:32 and the only means of salvation! Matt 28:19


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

 

[donadams]

Are we really just Relying on our own private judgement of scripture?

Instead of Christ the light of the world, and the way, the truth, and the Life!

And Christ and His church are one unity in all truth and grace!

Really we are just believing in our own private fallible judgment!

When Christ established the church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! Matt 28:19

Christians must be taught or instructed by the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church! Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19, Lk 10:16, Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31, Colossians 2:7

Our understanding, study, interpretation, judgment, are all adding to scripture!


Truth known by “hearing” the apostles not the “Bible alone”!

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The apostles in person:

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Doctrine of the apostles: acts 2:42

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Matt 5:14 the apostles are the light of the world until Christ returns in glory!

 

[donadams]

Blessing from God thru Mary!

All graces come to us they Mary, from God by the merits (blood) of Christ!
Jn 1:16
Of His fullness we have all received, grace for grace!

Found our Salvation Lk 1:30
Consented to our salvation Lk 1:38
Mother of Christ Matt 1:16
Mother of the word Jn 1:1
Mother of our savior Matt 1:21
Mother of our salvation Lk 2:30
Our mother Jn 19:26-27

By Mary’s intercession Christ is presented to be worshipped by the angels, shepherds, and the kings at the stable! Cos Mary found the grace of our salvation! Lk 1:30

Elizabeth filled with the Holy Spirit!

Lk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

John sanctified in the womb!

Lk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

Lk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Zacharias is filled with the Holy Spirit and prophecy!

Lk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

The wedding couple have wine and not shame!

Jn 2: 10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

The disciples are supplied with faith, hope, and charity!

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Mary found this grace! Lk 1:30
Mary believed for us! Lk 1:45
Mother of our salvation! Lk 2:30

All these blessings from God because of Mary most holy!

Mother of divine grace!

Mary is the divine treasury the Throne of grace! Heb 4:16

Biblical principle!

A good tree!

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

The fruit of the tree of Mary is our salvation! Lk 2:30 Jesus is our salvation!
Lk 1:30 Mary found our salvation!
Lk 1:38 consented to our salvation!

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Donadams:

There's always another side of a coin. I invite you to look at it.

Recently, on TV it was reported that a woman in Florida has been using the Internet to sale a 10-year-old grilled cheese sandwich, which supposedly bears the face of the “Virgin Mary.” She has had the sandwich frozen all those years. She has received a number of bids, up to about $33,000.

Mary’s face has appeared on just about everything imaginablestreet signs, clouds, toilet tissue, photos. Catholic devotees from all over the country, and often from other parts of the world, flock to where her face allegedly appears. In Europe a Catholic was presumably healed of cancer by the “Virgin Mary,” in spite of the fact the scriptures teach it is Jesus who heals, not the “Virgin Mary.” God has never once ascribed healing powers to the holy woman who bore His Son.

There’s no end to these fake, counterfeit “miracles. Statues of Mary have wept, and statues of Jesus have shed blood! And the Catholic Hierarchy supports and promotes most of these bogus claims. Two-thousand years ago, the great apostle Paul predicted a satanic system would arise that would fabricate and promote counterfeit miracles. Listen to him:

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing” (2 Thess. 2:5-12).

My Catholic readers might find their version of the passage above interesting. Here’s the same passage from the Catholic Bible. “This man of sin will come as Satan’s tool, full of satanic power, and will trick everyone with strange demonstrations, and will do great [counterfeit] miracles.”

With all due respect to my Catholic readers, there is only one religious institution in the whole wide world that fits the description aboveCatholicism. Paul says in another place this satanic system will “forbid people to marry [Catholic clergy are not permitted to marry] and order them to abstain from certain foods” (1 Timothy 4:1-5). The Catholic Bible says, [this satanic system] “will say it is wrong to be married and wrong to eat meat, even though God gave these things to well-taught Christians to enjoy and be thankful for."

Again, there is only one religious institution I’m aware of that has practiced this satanic tradition—Catholicism. Well, you get the picture. I suggest to my Catholic friends they cease being so gullible and start reading and thinking for themselves. For if you continue listening to your clergy, you will continue being led astray. And this applies to Protestants as well.​

 

[Hobie]

​

REFORMATION RUMBLINGS
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
____________________

The Worship Of Images & Popes​

The Roman Catholic clergy and their followers will tell you they do not bow down and pray to and worship images, statues, and idols. But according to Catholic history, they do.​

​

• An image bowed its head to St. John Gaulbert while he kneeled and prayed before it (Butler’s Lives of the Saints, p. 247). Yet Catholics deny they bow before and pray to images, statues, and idols.​
• Catholics deny worshipping the pope. Their own history testifies against them. Kissing of the pope’s foot was done as early as the eighth century and was done as an “act of reverence by which all the faithful do honor him as the Vicar of Christ” (Catholic Ency., Vol. XII, p 270).​

A religious “act of reverence” is the same as an act of worship. Yet Peter, who is alleged by Catholics to have been the first pope, refused to allow Cornelius to bow down to and worship him. He told Cornelius who bowed before him, “Stand up! I am only a man myself” (Acts 10:25-26). The Catholic Bible says, “Stand up! I’m not a god!” Catholic Popes, then, must consider themselves God, as they expect others to bow to them.

Every pope in history has expected others to bow down to them, including Pope John Paul II and others—the exact opposite of what the apostle Peter told Cornelius. Catholics and their clerics dishonor the very Bible they claim to have written by rebelling against its teachings. They do the same by bowing to and worshipping images, statues, and idols. Based on this information, Catholicism resembles paganism more than it does Christianity. But here’s more:​

​

• There were no statues in Catholic meeting structures prior to 325 A. D. “To avoid even the appearance of idolatry, no statues were placed in the early churches” (Short History of the Catholic Church, p. 65). This translates into the truth that idolatry is prevalent in Catholic Churches today, for statues and images abound.​
• “Though the veneration of images was a gradual growth in the Church—owing to the prevalence of heathen idolatry and the caution required to prevent their use from being misunderstood by the pagans—sculptured memorials of the Blessed Mary are found as early as the third century” (Practical Preaching for Priest and People, pgs. 89-90).​

“Veneration”? Isn’t that the same as “worship”? According to my dictionary, “veneration” is a form of worship. Yet Catholics say they don’t worship images and statues. Their Catholic clerics disagree with them. But if this isn’t enough, they need to get a Catholic Encyclopedia and turn to Vol. VII, p. 667, which reads:

“The whole tradition of venerating holy images gradually and naturally developed.” Again, this was printed with the imprimatur (Latin for “let it be printed”) of Catholic authorities.

At this point, we need to ask: What does God say on the subject of erecting images and idols? I think you will find the answer to this question interesting. “Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).​

The apostate church is clearly identified and shown by its false worship, and idols are part of that.

 

[donadams]

Besides, I beg you to show me at what period the visible Church may have been without miracles, from the time that it began until this presen? In the time of the Apostles there were miracles beyond number; you know that well. After that time, who knows not the miracles, related by Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, worked by the prayers of the legion of Christian soldiers who were in his army, which on this account was called thundering? Who knows not the miracles of S. Gregory Thaumaturgus, S. Martin, S. Anthony, S. Nicholas, S. Hilarion, and the wonders concerning Theodosius and Constantine, for which we have authors of irreproachable authority - Eusebius, Rufinus, S. Jerome, Basil, Sulpicius, Athanasius? Who knows not again what happened at the Invention of the Holy Cross, and in the time of Julian the Apostate? In the time of SS. Chrysostom, Ambrose, Augustine, many miracles were seen, which they themselves relate why then would you have the same Church now cease from miracles? What reason would there be? In truth, what we have always seen, in all varieties of times, accompanying the Church, we cannot do otherwise than call a property of the Church.

St. Francis, St. Bernard, St. Anthony worked miracles, the great and powerful virgin-martyrs worked miracles, St. Paul of the cross worked no less than 7 miracles everyday mostly by simply making the “sign of the cross”!

The true visible Church then makes her sanctity appear by miracles. And if God made so admirable the Propitiatory, and his Sinai, and his Burning Bush, because he wished to speak with men, why shall he not have made miraculous this his Church in which he wills to dwell for ever?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Besides, I beg you to show me at what period the visible Church may have been without miracles, from the time that it began until this presen? In the time of the Apostles there were miracles beyond number; you know that well. After that time, who knows not the miracles, related by Marcus Aurelius Antoninus, worked by the prayers of the legion of Christian soldiers who were in his army, which on this account was called thundering? Who knows not the miracles of S. Gregory Thaumaturgus, S. Martin, S. Anthony, S. Nicholas, S. Hilarion, and the wonders concerning Theodosius and Constantine, for which we have authors of irreproachable authority - Eusebius, Rufinus, S. Jerome, Basil, Sulpicius, Athanasius? Who knows not again what happened at the Invention of the Holy Cross, and in the time of Julian the Apostate? In the time of SS. Chrysostom, Ambrose, Augustine, many miracles were seen, which they themselves relate why then would you have the same Church now cease from miracles? What reason would there be? In truth, what we have always seen, in all varieties of times, accompanying the Church, we cannot do otherwise than call a property of the Church.

St. Francis, St. Bernard, St. Anthony worked miracles, the great and powerful virgin-martyrs worked miracles, St. Paul of the cross worked no less than 7 miracles everyday mostly by simply making the “sign of the cross”!

The true visible Church then makes her sanctity appear by miracles. And if God made so admirable the Propitiatory, and his Sinai, and his Burning Bush, because he wished to speak with men, why shall he not have made miraculous this his Church in which he wills to dwell for ever?

Donadams:

Counterfeit miracles are performed by counterfeit sects/cults, such as the Roman Catholic Church. True, genuine miracles throughout history have had God as their author. Spurious miracles have false sources as their innovators.

“Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).​

 

[Illuminator]

Donadams:

Counterfeit miracles are performed by counterfeit sects/cults, such as the Roman Catholic Church. True, genuine miracles throughout history have had God as their author. Spurious miracles have false sources as their innovators.

​ “Therefore, watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman” (Deut. 4:15-16).​

It's true there are and have been counterfeit so called miracles, Mary on a cheese sandwich is coincidental, and not taken seriously by Catholics. The Church doesn't waste time investigating such bogus claims. But authentic miracles have taken place, such as the healings at Lourdes and the astounding miracles at Fatima. It's much harder to mock. Either the miracles there are by the power of God, or the power of Satan. You need to be very careful of who you give credit to for such miracles, because giving credit to Satan what God does is a serious sin. Miracles are known to occur in Protestant communities as well. Arguments opposing miracles are atheistic in the first place.

(1) Miracles are defined as: instances where events happen in such close temporal proximity and in logical connection to religious evocation, such as prayer; said events stand out from what we understand to be the set course of nature; said events cannot be explained through any known natural agency; said events create religious affections in the lives of those connected with them.

(2) Miracles are perceived to be interventions or influences of Supernature upon the lower sphere of nature.

(3) Thousands of such examples have been documented in modern times.

(4) When and if such occurrences affect the life of a believer, the believer is then justified in assuming that some supernatural effect has occurred

(5) If a supernatural effect happens, it is assumed that God works such an effect

(6) Such effects have occurred, therefore, the believer is justified in such a belief.

(7) A justified belief in the action of God is a justification for a rational belief in God. Therefore, the real first hand experience of this type of event, or the credible confidence in such documented cases justifies a rational warrant for belief.

Introduction


The Medical committee at Lourdes is totally independent of the Church. They use skeptics on the committees, the rules are geared to control for remission. They screen our remission. They are required to use only the best medical evidence, to consult the doctors of the patients and they cannot make decisions without obtaining the medical records of those doctors. They do examine the patients. It does have to be proven that the people were sick beforehand! they will only choose a case when they cannot find a naturalistic explanation.

I am not claiming that these cases "prove" the existence of God. But in each case there is enough to make the leap of faith, filling in the gap with a good extraordinary pile of evidence. Atheists are always asserting we need extraordinary evidence. This is evidence. What most atheists mean by that is a little gape of raise the bar. I have played this game, met all their demands for documented miracles and they want more. They keep raising the bar until it turns out they will not believe until you give them regeneration of severed limbs. I show where St. Anthony did that, well it's a legend. I show a miracle that beatified St. Terisa of Lessex,a man grew grew back new lungs over night, but now that's not good because it's a Mary devotional site. It doesn't matter that the case is documented by the best medical evidence of the day (1916). But that's not good enough because the site it's on is not a science site and the X-rays are not on the net.

Atheists will never be satisfied because they are not seeking truth, they are seeking to guard a paradigm. Be that as it may, the evidence for miracles at Lourdes is the finest I the world, and is valid and well documented with the best science has to offer to date. That makes it extraordinary. This furnishes a rational warrant for belief. Meaning, if one chooses to construe it as proof it is not irrational to take it as such.

Lourdes evidence is the best. The Saintmaking miracles use the same rules and virtually the same committee, they are very exacting and rigorous. But they are not as pressure free as the Lourdes committee. There is some good evidence from the Protestant world, but not much. Protestants never think about documenting miracles. I also include what I call "the anecdotal pile." I don't think those cases prove anything, they sources are bad and docs stink, but I include them for the purpose of showing how many people in this world experience amazing things they define as "miracle." Miracles are going on all the time, and they not often given attention, not reported and not believed.

MODERN MIRACLES HAVE STRICT RULES

The paradox of human miracle assessment is that the only way to discern whether a phenomenon is supernatural is by having trained rationalists testify that it outstrips their training. Since most wonders admitted by the modern church are medical cures, it consults with doctors. Di Ruberto has access to a pool of 60 - "We've got all the medical branches covered," says his colleague, Dr. Ennio Ensoli - and assigns each purported miracle to two specialists on the vanquished ailment.

They apply criteria established in the 1700s by Pope Benedict XIV: among them, that the disease was serious; that there was objective proof of its existence; that other treatments failed; and that the cure was rapid and lasting. Any one can be a stumbling block. Pain, explains Ensoli, means little: "Someone might say he feels bad, but how do you measure that?" Leukemia remissions are not considered until they have lasted a decade. A cure attributable to human effort, however prayed for, is insufficient. "Sometimes we have cases that you could call exceptional, but that's not enough." says Ensoli. "Exceptional doesn't mean inexplicable."


THE CHURCH’S CRITERIA

1) The diagnostics and authenticity of the disease has been preliminarily and perfectly assessed;

2) The prognosis provides for an impending or short-term fatal outcome;

3) The recovery is sudden, without convalesce, and absolutely complete and final;

4) The prescribed treatment cannot be deemed to have resulted in a recovery or in any case could have been propitiatory for the purposes of recovery itself. These criteria are still in use nowadays, in view of their highly logical, accurate and pertinent nature.

"It is impossible to estimate the number of cures which have occurred at Lourdes. There are healings of a spiritual nature, such as faith, conversion, acceptance, joy. There are also the psychological cures-- freedom from anxiety, release from addiction and compulsion. There are cures of a physical nature, the only type investigated at Lourdes (and also the only type accepted in the beatification or canonization process), because evidence of both the past and present condition can be presented."

There have been only 66 official proclamations of miracles at Lourdes since the miracles began. This may sound like so few that it is hardly worth claiming them, however, this is not the case. It is really a testimony to the rigor of the process and to the Church's refusal to use the miracles as any sort of propaganda. If the claims were merely used to bolster propaganda of some sort one would think they would choose many more than this. But the requirements or so strict that only a few are accepted. There is actually a much larger pool of claims to choose from, and many more "remarkable" cases that did not make it because the documentation is just too difficult to get.

Marian Library (Ibid.)

"In the last one hundred years, over 6,500 individuals have reported cures to the Medical Bureau. Of these, at least 2,500 cases are considered truly remarkable, but they lack some requirement needed to allow them to advance to the next stage--witnesses, evidence, lack of agreement on the nature of the ailment. In the last twenty years, there have been reports of about twenty cases of extraordinary cures or healings, about one a year. Mr. Bély's healing is the 66th cure occurring at Lourdes which has been officially recognized by ecclesiastical authorities. The recognition by church authorities has been a feature of Lourdes for a total of sixty- three years of its history."

The Lourdes Medical Bureau and the International Bureau hold Symposia and conferences at which medical experts of all kinds present papers on the data of the miracle calims. Both philosophical and medical questions are addressed. The papers of top academic quality and the discussions are very important. There is a very interesting section on the Marian Newletter site about this, it is well worth reading, but we cannot go into that here. I urge the reader to click on that link and consider all that is said. One of the major issues addressed is the meaning of miralces. The Catholic chruch does not regard miracles as proof of the existence of God, rather, it understands them as a message, a sign form God, and the Pope has declared that miracles are a call to prayer and to seek God. In light of this realization, I present a few examples of healings from Lourdes:
read more here

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Illuminator:

There's no controversy between us embracing the fact that genuine, supernatural miracles were performed by some of the 12 apostles of the early community of the redeemed. It is highly unlikely, however, that a bogus religious sect like the Roman Catholic faction/denomination has ever been conferred supernatural powers to perform miracles.

But if authentic miracles have truly been performed, Satan dispatched them—not God, not the Holy Spirit, and not Messiah Jesus. I have a whole list of bogus miracles supported and endorsed by your religious order.

 

[donadams]

“An Idol” is an image worshipped as a god, not an image itself!

Honor of Mary!

Christ shares His glory with His saints.

Jn 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, (Lk1:45)

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1 pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Rom 13:7 honor Mary!

Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Lk 1:48 “all generations (Christians) shall call me blessed”!

If a man Honors his wife, and asks her to help him, and is Devoted to her, and gives her Veneration he MUST be worshipping her including adoration! Right?

Praise of Mary and the saints redounds to the glory of God and Christ, cos Mary and the saints are what God made them, it is His handiwork (Lk 1:49 Lk 1:28) and the graces they have received come from the merits of Christ’s passion and death. Jesus Christ is the source of all grace! Jn 1:16-17

2 Thessalonians 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



————

Worship of Mary!

Mary is not God!
Mary is not a goddess!
Mary is not an idol!
Mary is not an object of worship!


Only God may be lawfully worshipped!

Worship requires intent!

Worship includes;

Offering of sacrifice:
Adoration:
Propitiatory reparation:
Petition / prayer
Thanksgiving

Prayer alone is not worship!
Thanksgiving alone is not worship!
Honor is not worship!
Veneration is not worship!
Love / devotion / dedication is not worship!


The Lord came thru Mary!

Worked His first miracle thru her!

All grace comes thru Mary from Christ the source of all grace!
Jn 1:16-17

Mary found our salvation! Lk 1:30
Mary consented to our salvation! Lk 1:38
Mother of our salvation! Lk 2:30