The Son of David was expected to cast out demons?

[Arial]

I am just following what you have said.

It does not harmonize with your claims.

Ok, But you began off topic, and I am just reminding you to please not continue to do so.

 

[Josheb]

We don't know how much Moses wrote.

Relevance to this op?

It is much more likely that Moses wrote the Pentateuch than Solomon wrote the Lesser Key.

We do know that it would be illogical for Moses to have written about his own death and the dispute over his body since he would have been dead.

Of course. Again, how is that relevant to this op?

We have many anonymously written books of the Bible that we do not know who the author was.

None as authenticated as well as the Old Testament. There is absolutely nothing in ALL of human history that would evidence the grimoire is anything other than the imagination of Mr. de Laurence.

And scripture also mentions writings that are not included in the Bible and yet the people were expected to know of them, such as:

2 Chronicles 9:29 ESV​

Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, from first to last, are they not written in the history of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer concerning Jeroboam the son of Nebat?​

​

Numbers 21:14 ESV​

Therefore it is said in the Book of the Wars of the LORD, “Waheb in Suphah, and the valleys of the Arnon,​

​

2 Samuel 1:18 ESV​

(18) and he said it should be taught to the people of Judah; behold, it is written in the Book of Jashar. He said:​

​

1 Chronicles 29:29-30 ESV​

Now the acts of King David, from first to last, are written in the Chronicles of Samuel the seer, and in the Chronicles of Nathan the prophet, and in the Chronicles of Gad the seer,​

with accounts of all his rule and his might and of the circumstances that came upon him and upon Israel and upon all the kingdoms of the countries.​

​

1 Kings 11:41 ESV​

Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the Book of the Acts of Solomon?​

That's just a few. They were all mentioned as writings that the people should have already known about.

Yes, that is true, but none of them are said to be inspired by God, and if we had copied of any of those works they would be examined for their consistency with the whole, not considered valid and veracious by their mere existence. And each would be examined for what we know about the language, literature, customs, etc. of the time in which Moses, or David, or Nathan, or whoever, lived. This is how we know some books that were asserted as works of the apostles are definitely not written by the apostles.

Can I get answers to my questions now?

• Why consider an anonymously authored book on magic compiled in the 1600s to have anything authoritative to say about God's word?
• Isn't the fact the book did not provide an explanation for something easily known and understood in the Old Testament informative regarding its legitimacy?
• Was there some other purpose bringing that into the forum besides wanting an answer to the question asked?

And.... aren't we to consider the Bible authoritative over all other relevant writings, and therefore the measure of the Lesser Key rather than the other way around?

 

[Arial]

Why would you think an anonymously authored book on magic compiled in the 1600s would have anything authoritative to say about God's word?

A bit of a strawman? I may have missed it, but I don't recall @Tambora ever claiming they were authoritative. It is simply extant information that is extant to the word of God, which gives insight into the mindset and musings and thoughts in circulation at the time they were written. Without telling us everything that was written or said, or who believed it and who didn't, and was being circulated, at the time. Such writings are not "banned" material for the student of the Bible, and can be helpful in shedding light on our understanding, and increase our awareness as we read Scripture, that these were real people just like us, living in their times, just as we live in ours.

 

[Tambora]

A bit of a strawman? I may have missed it, but I don't recall @Tambora ever claiming they were authoritative. It is simply extant information that is extant to the word of God, which gives insight into the mindset and musings and thoughts in circulation at the time they were written. Without telling us everything that was written or said, or who believed it and who didn't, and was being circulated, at the time. Such writings are not "banned" material for the student of the Bible, and can be helpful in shedding light on our understanding, and increase our awareness as we read Scripture, that these were real people just like us, living in their times, just as we live in ours.

Right you are, Arial!
Our generation is lucky enough to be privy to ancient Jewish writings that many earlier theologians and church fathers did not have, such as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Who knows how many others may be found.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to someday find the letters Paul said he previously wrote but we don't have as yet.

 

[Arial]

Right you are, Arial!
Our generation is lucky enough to be privy to ancient Jewish writings that many earlier theologians and church fathers did not have, such as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Who knows how many others may be found.
Wouldn't it be wonderful to someday find the letters Paul said he previously wrote but we don't have as yet.

I am convinced nothing will change any truths that we have in Scripture. I am confident that God kept His sovereign hand in that just as He inspired the writings of men in it. But we have, over the centuries gained much historical, cultural etc information that was not previously available.

In my Reformation Study Bible, the ESV translation, it contains a wealth of information in this vein that into the text notes and book prefaces. We find both internal to the Bible, and external information that give us valuable interpretive tools. Helping to identify the reason a particular letter is being written to those it is written to, the issues they were dealing with that involved false teachings, what troubles and confusions the recipients were dealing with and where it was coming from. The pagan influences, the trials. It will often quote historical accounts of those Christians who were not Scripture authors, that shed light on what is seen in the letter.

And yes, I would like to have access to Paul's letters that have not been found. ANd all the prayers that Jesus prayed, and all the things He said that John said were too numerous to record!

 

[grace2]

Ok, But you began off topic, and I am just reminding you to please not continue to do so.

Following with what you say is not off-topic unless you are off-topic.

I am saying this because you guys tend to exclude Jesus' word in your analysis.

And claim that it is off-topic.

You guys have no interest in what Jesus says.

And claim He is your Lord.

 

[grace2]

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

 

[Mr GLee]

I believe the reason so many do not see the uniqueness of the Apostles, and simply apply the literal definition of the word to whomever they say is sent (and all Christians are sent in a very real sense), is because they do not really know what the Apostles were appointed to.

Putting ones trust in the temporal dying things seen with no vision or spiritual understanding of the unseen Head Christ as it is written. Is the foundation of Paganism (Out of sight out of mind)

The apostles prophesied the word God as he gave them power to perform it ..You could say in the same way when he put his living word in the mouth of a Ass to represent unredeemed dying mankind. The power of His word stopped the madness of the false apostle, false prophet Balaam

God knew in advance when a prophet like Moses world die that faithless mankind would return and venerate each other oral traditons the new authority making mankind a higher authroity of all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)... No succession of apostles (errand boys) dying mankind

Deuteronomy 31: 24-30 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.

Place the book on the side as it is writen it reveals what is inside the golden ark used to represent faith throughout the Bible .The written authority of Christ the husband. The hidden manna, the staff that produced the fruit of the Spirit , the living word of God and the two tablets together the one witness (three) God has spoken and it is sealed. nothing can be added to it or taken away from it >

The mysteries of faith the unseen eternal things of God that power hid in parables .Comparing the temporal things seen to the unseen eternal things of faith, Christ labor of love, the power of God by which we can believe and move according to His power

Apostle sent messengers errand boys and girls . .

 

[Arial]

Following with what you say is not off-topic unless you are off-topic.

I am saying this because you guys tend to exclude Jesus' word in your analysis.

And claim that it is off-topic.

You guys have no interest in what Jesus says.

And claim He is your Lord.

You are making the OP to become a discussion that belongs in the Unitarian or Trinitarian board. That is all I am saying, Now stop arguing about it.

 

[grace2]

You are making the OP to become a discussion that belongs in the Unitarian or Trinitarian board. That is all I am saying, Now stop arguing about it.

What I claim is not unitarian things.

I am correcting your misrepresentation of Jesus' word.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am convinced nothing will change any truths that we have in Scripture. I am confident that God kept His sovereign hand in that just as He inspired the writings of men in it. But we have, over the centuries gained much historical, cultural etc information that was not previously available.

In my Reformation Study Bible, the ESV translation, it contains a wealth of information in this vein that into the text notes and book prefaces. We find both internal to the Bible, and external information that give us valuable interpretive tools. Helping to identify the reason a particular letter is being written to those it is written to, the issues they were dealing with that involved false teachings, what troubles and confusions the recipients were dealing with and where it was coming from. The pagan influences, the trials. It will often quote historical accounts of those Christians who were not Scripture authors, that shed light on what is seen in the letter.

And yes, I would like to have access to Paul's letters that have not been found. ANd all the prayers that Jesus prayed, and all the things He said that John said were too numerous to record!

That would seem to make all things written in the law and prophets without effect(sola scriptura the reforming authroity of Christ ) adding traditons of dying mankind

I would think one valuable interpretation tool that works in us giving us the faith or understanding of the parables hid from natural uncovered mankind. In that way parables teach us how to understand the mysteries of our invisible head Christ. . giving us the eternal gospel understanding .

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version1 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal

In that way it would seem lying signs to wonder after have more value today than a parables as prophecy . Christ's book of law is sealed till the end of time with 7 seals .There is no law missing by which we could know him more adequately or intimately It not the mysteries that come by wonders after the King of lying signs. . to wonder after is active everyday It would seem a false hope to protect the lie signs to wonder after.no sign was given The father of lies brining new false prophecy every day .

Matthew 12:39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 16:4A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Mark 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign
be given unto this generation

In that way signs follow prophecy. . . not prophecy follows signs.

Mark 16:17And these signs shall "follow" them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils;(false prophecy) they shall speak with new tongues; (gospel ) They shall take up serpents;( false prophecy) and if they drink any deadly thing,( the poison or serpents) it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick (preach the gospel ) , and they shall recover.

Mark 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs "following." Amen.

Signs for the unbelieving world in a hope of drawing them to faith as it is written Prophecy for the born again believer


A wile of the evil one I would think turn things upside own Not inspired ffrm our private interpretation .person commentary

Its why Jesus after revealing the greatest miracle given words form the father lovingly commanded Nicodenmus a sign and wonder seeker . Marvel not but rather believe exercise living faith. Marveling is not belief. . neither is wondering everyone wonder when choosing between two issue called doubt. Satan tool for accusing the brethren day and night. Doubt is not the oposite of faith un belief. . no faith is. He gives us little of that power calling us "little faith ones Just enough to please Him

.A law of the fathers (sign and wonder seekers) by oral tradition of dying mankind. They called sola scriptura (all things written in the law and the prophets) the heresy or private interpretation and thier own interpretation the law by which men are authorized to murder those who do not fall down to the oral tradition of a legion dying fathers

Acts 24 :13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The Holy Spirit protecting the authority of his eternal word . . not to add or subtract from the perfect .

 

[Arial]

That would seem to make all things written in the law and prophets without effect(sola scriptura the reforming authroity of Christ ) adding traditons of dying mankind

No it wouldn't. No more than reading a history book, or a book of poetry, or any other type of book. No more than studying geology, astronomy, or any of the other sciences. It depends on what a person does with them. If someone wants to take them over and above the authority of Scripture, that is on them.

 

[Mr GLee]

No it wouldn't. No more than reading a history book, or a book of poetry, or any other type of book. No more than studying geology, astronomy, or any of the other sciences. It depends on what a person does with them. If someone wants to take them over and above the authority of Scripture, that is on them.

The Bible is a history book written as a parable it must be rightly divided and not added to or taken away from

 

[Josheb]

A bit of a strawman? I may have missed it, but I don't recall @Tambora ever claiming they were authoritative.

It's not explicit. Solomon wrote the "Lesser Key." If Solomon wrote the "Lesser Key," then the unstated premise is Solomon dabbled in sorcery. The grimoire therefore tells us something about scripture that scripture itself does not tell us. Scripture is silent but the Lemegeton tells us the truth, the facts not stated in scripture.

No, it is not a bit of a strawmen.

It is simply extant information that is extant to the word of God, which gives insight into the mindset and musings and thoughts in circulation at the time they were written. Without telling us everything that was written or said, or who believed it and who didn't, and was being circulated, at the time.

Which contradict what scripture teaches. Scripture explicitly states sorcery is a work of the flesh and those who participate in that work of flesh have no place in the kingdom of God. Sorcery and sorcerers are to be avoided. When it comes to Solomon practicing sorcery (and writing a booking teaching its secrets) this has enormous consequences because it means the smartest man in history, the builder of God's temple, was a sorcerer.

Such writings are not "banned" material for the student of the Bible, and can be helpful in shedding light on our understanding, and increase our awareness as we read Scripture, that these were real people just like us, living in their times, just as we live in ours.

Now that is a straw man if it is intended to suggest I have implied such a thing. I, myself have read the book. I posted quotes from the book to demonstrate the problems in the book, the contradictions with scripture the book contains, beginning with the undeniably fact its author claims to be the God of God! All of my academic and post-academic education is ensconced in anthropology, sociology, and social psychology. No person, Christian or otherwise, can do that without reading non-Christian writings and something other than the Bible. To my knowledge no one has banned the Lesser Key, either.

Such writings.............. can be helpful in shedding light on our understanding, and increase our awareness as we read Scripture, that these were real people just like us, living in their times, just as we live in ours.

Is that the point you find @Tambora making?

Right you are, Arial!

Except she is not right, or right on.

Our generation is lucky enough to be privy to ancient Jewish writings that many earlier theologians and church fathers did not have, such as the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Which is a point that is not in dispute, a point overtly demonstrated by my own having read and quoted the Lesser Key for everyone's understanding of the text.

Who knows how many others may be found.

Why does that matter? If there were 3,000 books about sorcery, or 30,000,000 different books found how would that impact our understanding of the Bible?

Wouldn't it be wonderful to someday find the letters Paul said he previously wrote but we don't have as yet.

That would be great but Paul was an authoritative writer of scripture and Mr. de Laurence is not. Not everything Paul wrote is scripture, either. We might find a letter from Paul, or Solomon, that has nothing to do with inspired scripture. That content might tell us something about the man who wrote the letter, but nothing about Jesus. So what, exactly, would be the wonderful something found in the latter kind of letter? What comparison is being made between the grimoire and scripture?

I am convinced nothing will change any truths that we have in Scripture.

Exactly.

As I believe I stated previously, anything newly discovered will be examined to see how well it reconciles with the whole of scripture. Books on sorcery do not reconcile well. They stand in antithesis, not thesis.





Therefore, my questions stand. Can I now get some answers?

• Why do you, @Tambora consider an anonymously authored book on magic compiled in the 1600s to have anything authoritative to say about God's word?
• In regard to the grimoire's legitimacy, isn't the fact the book did not provide an explanation for something easily known and understood in the Old Testament informative? There is a very readily and easily attained answer to the question asked in this op. Why doesn't the grimoire provide it?
• Was there some other purpose bringing that into the forum besides wanting an answer to the question asked?
• Aren't we to consider the Bible authoritative over all other relevant writings, and therefore the measure of the Lesser Key rather than the other way around?

If the answer is, "I don't," or "I don't know," then just say so! Otherwise, the op is all yours to explain without high horses or anything else of unkind nature. I await your answers with patience and goodwill.

 

[Arial]

Which contradict what scripture teaches. Scripture explicitly states sorcery is a work of the flesh and those who participate in that work of flesh have no place in the kingdom of God. Sorcery and sorcerers are to be avoided. When it comes to Solomon practicing sorcery (and writing a booking teaching its secrets) this has enormous consequences because it means the smartest man in history, the builder of God's temple, was a sorcerer.

Your answers still presume that anyone is using extant sources as authoritative rather than as a means of "back story" as to the mindset of the peoples of any given era, and cultural and historical events, that are not recorded in the Bible. Either that or the subject is being changed from that of the OP.

But FYI, something I am certain you know but are not taking into consideration in what you say is implied about Solomon: Solomon, the smartest man in history, the builder of God's temple, did become an idolater, and that is recorded in the Bible. 1Kings 11:14

As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.

Now that is a straw man if it is intended to suggest I have implied such a thing.

I wasn't implying that you were. You inferred that I did. And you also told me what my intentions were, which you cannot know.

I, myself have read the book. I posted quotes from the book to demonstrate the problems in the book, the contradictions with scripture the book contains, beginning with the undeniably fact its author claims to be the God of God! All of my academic and post-academic education is ensconced in anthropology, sociology, and social psychology. No person, Christian or otherwise, can do that without reading non-Christian writings and something other than the Bible. To my knowledge no one has banned the Lesser Key, either.

That book is not the subject of the OP. A posters credentials are not the subject of the OP and are used as a logical fallacy to support whatever is said.

Is that the point you find @Tambora making?

I don't find it to be the point, I find it to be the answer to the question you asked.

 

[Josheb]

Your answers still presume ...

What I presume is known to anyone but myself. I do not trade posts with others who presume to know what I presume. Thank you for your time.

 

[Arial]

What I presume is known to anyone but myself. I do not trade posts with others who presume to know what I presume. Thank you for your time.

Says a poster who presented an entire series of posts based on presumption.

 

[Mr GLee]

Your answers still presume that anyone is using extant sources as authoritative rather than as a means of "back story" as to the mindset of the peoples of any given era, and cultural and historical events, that are not recorded in the Bible. Either that or the subject is being changed from that of the OP

I would think no man can serve two mind sets .Believers look spiritual invisible things (faith) of Christ. Yoked with Him our burden can be lighter

When rightly dividing parables, that seen the temporal historical must be mixed with the unseen things of Christ's faith the eternal also called a labor of his love.


1 Corihtinans 2:11-13 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual

In that way the whole period of time there were kings in Israel (a pagan foundation out of sight out of mind (no faith as it is written) Until the time of the first century reformation .


The language of parables or figures used to signify using the temporal seen to give the unseen understanding of faith. They must be mixed or the mystery of faith remains a mystery and no gospel rest .

Parables teach us how to walk by faith.

Hebrews 9:8-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.