The Rapture/Resurrection of the Church is near.

[CrowCross]

I think we can look at prophecy, news, technology, etc. to help us present a "window".

Here's 15 off the top of my head.

For example Israel becoming a nation again is one indicator.
The Ezekiel nation alignment is a second. Russia aligning with Iran, Turkey and the other nations mentioned in that text. Sometimes it's hard to convert from the old nation names to the current nation names. Currently those nations appear to be aligned against Israel.
3.....Technology has been developed that would allow for the mark of the Beast to be employed. It's not quite there but almost there.
4....The Gospel pretty much has been preached to the entire world.
5....The NWO, UN as well as the WEF are working on a one world Government.
6....Plans for the new Temple in Israel are well under way.
7....A "peace treaty" known as the Abrahamic accord has been drafted.
8....The "like the days of Noah" is pretty much here. Transhumanism is being developed and rolled out.
9....AI currently is becoming closer to the "singularity. Rev 13:15 may be the singularity.
10...Peole are traveling to and fro..and knowledge is increasing at a startling rate.
11...A one world currency is being established.
12.... UN "peace and security" statue.
13...Many false Churches.
14....Wars and rumors of Wars. Though this seem to have always been happening.
15....Earthquakes in diverse places? I don't know if I would count the many "small" earthquakes but would expect to hear of major earthquakes happening every month or perhaps every week.

Currently we seem to be in that window.

Can anyone add to the list?

Luke 21:28...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. KJV

 

[LeviR]

I think we can look at prophecy, news, technology, etc. to help us present a "window".

Here's 15 off the top of my head.

For example Israel becoming a nation again is one indicator.
The Ezekiel nation alignment is a second. Russia aligning with Iran, Turkey and the other nations mentioned in that text. Sometimes it's hard to convert from the old nation names to the current nation names. Currently those nations appear to be aligned against Israel.
3.....Technology has been developed that would allow for the mark of the Beast to be employed. It's not quite there but almost there.
4....The Gospel pretty much has been preached to the entire world.
5....The NWO, UN as well as the WEF are working on a one world Government.
6....Plans for the new Temple in Israel are well under way.
7....A "peace treaty" known as the Abrahamic accord has been drafted.
8....The "like the days of Noah" is pretty much here. Transhumanism is being developed and rolled out.
9....AI currently is becoming closer to the "singularity. Rev 13:15 may be the singularity.
10...Peole are traveling to and fro..and knowledge is increasing at a startling rate.
11...A one world currency is being established.
12.... UN "peace and security" statue.
13...Many false Churches.
14....Wars and rumors of Wars. Though this seem to have always been happening.
15....Earthquakes in diverse places? I don't know if I would count the many "small" earthquakes but would expect to hear of major earthquakes happening every month or perhaps every week.

Currently we seem to be in that window.

Can anyone add to the list?

Luke 21:28...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. KJV

Yikes!

 

[Arial]

I think we can look at prophecy, news, technology, etc. to help us present a "window".

Here's 15 off the top of my head.

For example Israel becoming a nation again is one indicator.

Before I respond to this I will first mention something in reference to the title. It asserts that there is a pre-trib, pre-mil rapture without first establishing that there is such a thing as this rapture or a seven year tribulation. But to continue.

There is something backwards and often unscriptural about looking at the news, technology etc. and then going to prophecy to find out the meaning of the prophecy from those external things. At its very core it is reading into the scriptures from a presuppositional position.

It does not take into consideration the continuity of the Scriptures through all its pages, of one story, one redemption and that story is the redemption playing out within historical events. It does not pause. It does not sidestep. It does not detour. It does not break and divide following two different paths.

Israel becoming a nation again is not a marker of a pre-salvation incident that deals only with national Israel. There is now a nation of Israel but it is not the same nation as the Biblical land. What does exist rejects Jesus the Messiah. It is not the place where God says "You are my people and I am your God." There are no priests. There is no temple. There is no line of David and no king. There are no sacrifices. No covering. They are still awaiting their Messiah to come and make them a great nation. They have rejected the blood of the covenant.

The Messiah has already come. He has shed His blood for the forgiveness of His people, been raised to life, been crowned King, and is the only Priest who will ever again stand as mediator between man and God.

So with all that in mind: Who are the people of God?

 

[CrowCross]

Before I respond to this I will first mention something in reference to the title. It asserts that there is a pre-trib, pre-mil rapture without first establishing that there is such a thing as this rapture or a seven year tribulation. But to continue.

many people....many....have established that the pre-trib rapture is scriptural.

There is something backwards and often unscriptural about looking at the news, technology etc. and then going to prophecy to find out the meaning of the prophecy from those external things. At its very core it is reading into the scriptures from a presuppositional position.

There is nothing wrong with looking at "current events" and seeing if they align with scripture.
Perhaps you would have told the magi that the star didn't mean Jesus has arrived....they're wasting their time for looking for Him.

It does not take into consideration the continuity of the Scriptures through all its pages, of one story, one redemption and that story is the redemption playing out within historical events. It does not pause. It does not sidestep. It does not detour. It does not break and divide following two different paths.

The pre-trib rapture is part of the continuity of the Scriptures.

Israel becoming a nation again is not a marker of a pre-salvation incident that deals only with national Israel. There is now a nation of Israel but it is not the same nation as the Biblical land. What does exist rejects Jesus the Messiah.

That is true...Israel for the most part rejects salvation through Jesus Christ. Chapter 6 and onward is pretty much God dealing with Israel to bring them back to Him....to bering them to the acceptance of Jesus Christ their messiah.

It is not the place where God says "You are my people and I am your God." There are no priests. There is no temple. There is no line of David and no king. There are no sacrifices. No covering. They are still awaiting their Messiah to come and make them a great nation. They have rejected the blood of the covenant.

They are currently trying to reestablish the Temple...there is no denying that.

The Messiah has already come. He has shed His blood for the forgiveness of His people, been raised to life, been crowned King, and is the only Priest who will ever again stand as mediator between man and God.

True....Then Jesus ascended into heaven and said....much like Arnold...."I'll be back"

So with all that in mind: Who are the people of God?

The elect.

 

[CrowCross]

BTW Arial...you are now off topic. Will you address the 15 points?

 

[3 Resurrections]

There is nothing wrong with looking at "current events" and seeing if they align with scripture.

What about looking at the events which Christ predicted all taking place in the past? After all, these "beginning of sorrows" which Christ listed in Matthew 24 were to be accompanied by the disciples being "beaten in the synagogues", and being "delivered up" to the Sanhedrin councils and rulers of that Jewish religious system - i.e., the high priesthood system which hasn't existed since the AD 66-70 war period.

You and I are not at risk of being beaten or scourged in a synagogue, nor delivered up to the rulers of a Sanhedrin council to be imprisoned by them (Luke 21:12). These were first-century risks and threats that happened for the early church by the persecuting Jewish religious leadership, which the book of Acts records for us.

 

[LeviR]

BTW Arial...you are now off topic. Will you address the 15 points?

How is it they can only find six problems with what they call depensationalism.
I could find way more.

 

[Arial]

many people....many....have established that the pre-trib rapture is scriptural.

Many, many people believe it but no one had established it. If they have, show me who and how it was established.

There is nothing wrong with looking at "current events" and seeing if they align with scripture.
Perhaps you would have told the magi that the star didn't mean Jesus has arrived....they're wasting their time for looking for Him.

This is what is so frustrating about trying to have a decent and productive conversation with those who have deeply ingrained but unsubstantiated beliefs on these types of topics. They never actually deal with what the other person is saying. Here you have brought in the magi in order to support your statement, and one thing has nothing to do with the other. It was also reduced to a personal level.

What I said was that looking at current events to see if they align with scripture is backwards. Current events to not interpret Scripture. Scripture interprets scripture. Scripture is not meant to align with current events. It is not even really looking at current events as an interpretive tool. It taking current events into the Bible where they do not Exist, and fitting them into your belief. What one should do is figure out whether they have a correct understanding of---in the case of eschatology specifically-----Biblical eschatology and all the doctrinal elements of Christianity as fitting together with themselves. Does dispensationalism---a pre-trib rapture, a seven year tribulation, etc.----align with the whole of Scripture? Or does it divide the continuity of redemption, going jerkily along, pausing, stepping back into the shadows for a thousand years, then kaboom!; now the rest of redemption can finish and the church join the nation state of Israel: and does it do this simply by not seeing the whole picture from its beginning to end----which is what the Bible does.

The pre-trib rapture is part of the continuity of the Scriptures.

Can you tell me why all the believers when Jesus returns should be removed from the earth before He returns a third time? Can you show me where the OT, Jesus, or any of the Apostles' indicate in any way that He will return three times instead of two. Can you show me where any of them ever speak of a thousand year earthly reign of Jesus prior to the resurrection? Or of any time period other than "this age" and the "age to come"? There is nothing continuous about a pre-trib rapture. It is an abrupt gap, prior to another gap (the so called tribulation) followed by an even larger gap that is a chasm of a thousand years.

That is true...Israel for the most part rejects salvation through Jesus Christ. Chapter 6 and onward is pretty much God dealing with Israel to bring them back to Him....to bering them to the acceptance of Jesus Christ their messiah.

It did not do that the first time. What makes you think that a second time of returning to those same shadows would be more effective? The old covenant system could not change any man's conscience. Why do you think it would the second time around?

They are currently trying to reestablish the Temple...there is no denying that.

That is because they do NOT believe Jesus is the Messiah. It is they who want the old system of worship back. They lost their one access to God. They want it back. Kind of a if we build His house He will come and dwell in it. Rather than what it is; he ceased dwelling with national/ethnic Israel as His nation where He dwelt when He destroyed every last relic of the temple, every access to Him through the earthly temple, in 70 A.D. God does not live in temples made by man anymore. He dwells in His people, be they Jew or Gentile, through faith in the person and work of Jesus.

The elect.

Would that not be true Israel then----and not land nor ethnic Israel? And if that is true Israel, and national Israel was one of those shadows of the OT just as much as the Exodus, the priesthood, the sacrifices, and all the land of all the earth belongs to God as he says, then the prophecies concerning Israel have more than one application. They have application to current events of the time that they were written, and often also, a future time that in our time has come to pass, and their ultimate fulfillment in Christ. The goal and purpose in redemption is not a small land mass and a specific people, but the whole of creation---God's people in all the nations, not just one. And the death of death.

 

[Arial]

BTW Arial...you are now off topic. Will you address the 15 points?

I am addressing them one at a time. If I went off topic at any point it is because you drew it off topic or you just think it is off topic because you don't see how it all goes together.

 

[LeviR]

I am addressing them one at a time. If I went off topic at any point it is because you drew it off topic or you just think it is off topic because you don't see how it all goes together.

I’ve yet to see a topic stay on topic, but I digress.

 

[Tambora]

hehe!
Some like to talk about how there are no signs for their secret rapture to happen, but then use the newspaper to look for signs!

 

[Tambora]

Does dispensationalism---a pre-trib rapture, a seven year tribulation, etc.----align with the whole of Scripture? Or does it divide

It divides believers, the body of Christ, and splits them into two separate groups that get treated differently.
One group of believers that has to endure tribulation and one group of believers that doesn't.

 

[LeviR]

It divides believers, the body of Christ, and splits them into two separate groups that get treated differently.
One group of believers that has to endure tribulation and one group of believers that doesn't.

God divides people into two groups. His children and the children of this world.
Who are His children?

 

[Arial]

It divides believers, the body of Christ, and splits them into two separate groups that get treated differently.
One group of believers that has to endure tribulation and one group of believers that doesn't.

Yup. It divides believers and it divides redemption, therefore it divides Christ. One heck of a big time no, no.

 

[Carbon]

I think we can look at prophecy, news, technology, etc. to help us present a "window".

Here's 15 off the top of my head.

For example Israel becoming a nation again is one indicator.
The Ezekiel nation alignment is a second. Russia aligning with Iran, Turkey and the other nations mentioned in that text. Sometimes it's hard to convert from the old nation names to the current nation names. Currently those nations appear to be aligned against Israel.
3.....Technology has been developed that would allow for the mark of the Beast to be employed. It's not quite there but almost there.
4....The Gospel pretty much has been preached to the entire world.
5....The NWO, UN as well as the WEF are working on a one world Government.
6....Plans for the new Temple in Israel are well under way.
7....A "peace treaty" known as the Abrahamic accord has been drafted.
8....The "like the days of Noah" is pretty much here. Transhumanism is being developed and rolled out.
9....AI currently is becoming closer to the "singularity. Rev 13:15 may be the singularity.
10...Peole are traveling to and fro..and knowledge is increasing at a startling rate.
11...A one world currency is being established.
12.... UN "peace and security" statue.
13...Many false Churches.
14....Wars and rumors of Wars. Though this seem to have always been happening.
15....Earthquakes in diverse places? I don't know if I would count the many "small" earthquakes but would expect to hear of major earthquakes happening every month or perhaps every week.

Currently we seem to be in that window.

Can anyone add to the list?

Luke 21:28...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. KJV

I can’t wait until you are no longer a dipsy.

 

[Arial]

The Ezekiel nation alignment is a second. Russia aligning with Iran, Turkey and the other nations mentioned in that text. Sometimes it's hard to convert from the old nation names to the current nation names. Currently those nations appear to be aligned against Israel.

What does any of that in actuality have to do with redemption, the rapture or the resurrection of the church. You make that statement relating it to nothing. What do you mean by the resurrection of the church? The church doesn't need to be resurrected. It is our bodies that will be resurrected or changed if we are still alive when he returns.

 

[Arial]

3.....Technology has been developed that would allow for the mark of the Beast to be employed. It's not quite there but almost there.

Did it take technology to mark us as Christ's with His seal? Why do you think the mark of the beast is a literal mark and a literal number? You need to be able to answer these questions, and for the sake of discussion, should answer them. Otherwise it is just head banging against a wall. Let us reason together for once.

 

[Carbon]

What does any of that in actuality have to do with redemption, the rapture or the resurrection of the church. You make that statement relating it to nothing. What do you mean by the resurrection of the church? The church doesn't need to be resurrected. It is our bodies that will be resurrected or changed if we are still alive when he returns.

Right. And that’s why we go to meet the Lord in the air. (Rapture)

 

[Arial]

4....The Gospel pretty much has been preached to the entire world.

Why do you conclude that means a rapture is imminent? Where is this idea of a rapture coming from? The gospel will be preached all over the world until the last elect has come in. 2 Peter 3:8-9. And then the Lord will return 2 Peter 3. I don't see any mention of a rapture or a seven year tribulation or a 1000 year long earthly reign of Jesus in between those two things.

 

[Arial]

5....The NWO, UN as well as the WEF are working on a one world Government.

That has been identified in different ways by different organization at least since the 70's when Dispensationalist writers and preaches became obsessed with a one world government----once again failing in their predictions and focusing outside the Bible to determine what is in the Bible. Something is wrong with this picture!.