The Rapture or the Second Coming

[Arial]

Is there a removal from the wrath of God on the last day?

The believer does not experience the wrath of God in the final judgment. Jesus did that for them.

 

[CrowCross]

I read it. It's a pile of dross not worth the time it took to write or the space it takes up in the thread. Jesus is not on a white horse in Zec 14.

I can answer your {edit} post in one sentence...

Zech 14 speaks of after Jesus arrived...not His arrival method. We learn of that in Rev 19.

 

[CrowCross]

Yep. That is what the verse states. The problem is what the verse states is not what you preach.

As I have just posted in post 215, the sword is in his mouth, not his hand. He is wielding that sword while riding in heaven. What the text states is he's riding around in heaven ruling the nations while in heaven, and nowhere does the text state he leaves heaven. There's no mention of his being on earth at all.

So..... you, therefore, have NOT answered the question asked. You were asked to provide a verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth and Revelation 19:11-19 makes no such explicit statement.

I have already explained that passage, too, but I will add two more comments. First, Zec 14:3 explicitly states the LORD, not the Lord, sets foot on the Mount of Olives (see Ps. 110:1), and to Zec. 14:3 does not report the LORD's setting foot on the Mount of Olives occurs prior to any tribulation. You add to the text to make it say something it does not actually state.

I have never said Jesus was riding in circles. The fact is the very text you cite explicitly states Jesus is seen in heaven. Jesus is not seen on earth.

Revelation 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.

The white horse and its rider are seen in heaven.

Show me the verse where the white horse is explicitly stated to leave heaven. Do not infer it.

Nice try...Jesus fights and strikes down the nations. All I'm doing is quoting scripture and connecting the dots.
It's not that hard because each speak of Jesus second coming. In fact the same sort of language is used as I have already pointed out.

{edit}

 

[Tambora]

Noah was taken away from the surface of the earth in a boat.
Lot was taken away from the city....I fail to see your point.

If you are going to use going from one physical place to another as a "rapture" then you will find tons of raptures in scripture and will make it redundant.
But the rapture Paul talks about is not about going from one physical place to another but is about the physical body CHANGING from physical to non-physical (ie. from mortal to immortal, no longer being of this world).

You do know that some people will be saved during the tribulation. Yes?

Yes I do know that people will be saved who suffer through tribulation and is why I specifically said that in my post you quoted.

Perhaps you would like to address the white horse issue that shows a pre-trib rapture.

The only places white horse symbology shows up in scripture is in Zechariah and Revelation.
And neither place is talking about bodies changing from mortal to immortal.

 

[CrowCross]

The actual non symbolic account of how he will return: Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

Sounds like the resurrection/rapture....it could be the white horse Zech 14 return.

No white horse there either.

neither is there one present at the resurrection/rapture.

 

[CrowCross]

If you are going to use going from one physical place to another as a "rapture" then you will find tons of raptures in scripture and will make it redundant.
But the rapture Paul talks about is not about going from one physical place to another but is about the physical body CHANGING from physical to non-physical (ie. from mortal to immortal, no longer being of this world).

Explain this....1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It sounds like Paul is talking about going from one physical place to another.

 

[brightfame52]

The believer does not experience the wrath of God in the final judgment. Jesus did that for them.

Agreed, but did the believer experience the wrath of God b4 they believed ? Did Jesus do that for them b4 they believed ?

 

[Arial]

Sounds like the resurrection/rapture....it could be the white horse Zech 14 return.

Sounds like? Could be? Why guess? Go find out. Without any eisegesis that reads presuppositions into it.

neither is there one present at the resurrection/rapture.

That is because there never is a return of Christ on a white horse. That has been explained and the explanation ignored. The rapture at the resurrection is the resurrected saints and those saints living when he returns are caught up to meet him in the air. There is no mention of the glorified saints continuing up away from the earth, or of Jesus reversing direction and going back up. The Thess passage is discussing Christ's return to the earth in victory. So, either the saints remain suspended, or they return with him. Since it says they will be with him forever, they must return with him. If Jesus returns a third time to rule from Jerusalem over the Jews for a thousand years, those glorified saints will not be with him, will they? Every word matters.

 

[Arial]

Explain this....1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It sounds like Paul is talking about going from one physical place to another.

See post #228.

 

[Arial]

Agreed, but did the believer experience the wrath of God b4 they believed ? Did Jesus do that for them b4 they believed ?

The expression of the "wrath of God" in Scripture is usually reserved for the final judgment. His judgment came of sin and extended to the creation itself when Adam sinned and God cast them out of the Garden of Eden and blocked all access to the tree of life. We all walk in that judgment every minute of our lives, the redeemed and unredeemed alike. The believer never experiences the wrath of God because Jesus experienced in their place, for them. Substituionary atonement.

 

[Josheb]

Yeah something like that, but we dont know for sure

Fourteen years is not soon. Neither is 2000 years. God NEVER used the word "soon" to mean "more than two thousand years. He never used the word to mean anything other than "close in time or space." He never used the word to mean anything other than it's normal meaning in ordinary usage. Some words, like "life" or "death," He used in multiple ways but the word "soon" was never used to mean anything other than soon.

Look it up and verify that fact.

Do the word study. Do the work and verify that fact.

Yeah something like that, but we dont know for sure

Well then..... If the word "soon" could mean as much as fourteen years, what makes you think God did NOT mean fourteen years when He first used the word? Do you see the problem? Every day we turn on a Christian radio and hear preachers saying, "I believe Jesus will be returning soon," and when they use the word "soon" they mean soon. They mean Jesus will be returning within a brief period of time. There is an unstated urgency when they speak of "soon" because they want people to repent and come to Jesus now, and if they aren't going to come to Christ now then they should come soon because Jesus will be returning soon. They need to repent and believe before his soon coming.

But not a single one of them ever tells their audience they are not reading God's use of "soon" the same way they use the word "soon." They never disclose the fact they are using the word with its normal meaning in ordinary usage but do NOT do the same with God's use of the word "soon" even though God never uses the word soon in any other way.

In other words, they do not practice what they preach .

• Modern futurists say they believe Jesus could come at any time, but they also say Jesus won't be coming until after the tribulation. Those two beliefs contradict one another.
• Modern futurists say Jesus can return any day at any time but they also say Jesus will not return until after the tribulation, or after a temple is built or after the land is all recaptured, or after sacrifices are reinstituted, or all of those things combined. Jesus cannot return any day at any time if a bunch of stuff has to happens before he returns.
• Modern futurists say no one knows the day or hour but they constantly say he is coming soon. A person has to either know when he is coming in order to qualify it as "soon," or he has to redefine the word "soon."
• Modern futurists say no one knows the day or time but they say there are signs that determine the time when he comes, signs that they and anyone else can recognize as signs of his return. If no one can know the day or time, then there are no signs and if there are signs then the time of his return can be known. These viewpoints contradict each other.
• Modern futurists either use the word "soon" differently than God in His word, or they deny their meaning applies to God's use of the word.

They do it every single day. They fill forum threads with these contradictions. It would be best if these contradictions were removed from their eschatology, but that would require relaxing the allegiance to modern futurism and putting it into greater allegiance to God's word as written and reason.

God never uses the word "soon" to mean anything but soon. When you use the word "soon," you mean soon but you're flexible with that meaning. It can mean as long as fourteen years.

I will fix your car soon. It'll be ready for you in fourteen years. I'll pick you up soon. It'll be fourteen years after you're ready. The jury will decide your case soon. They will deliberate for fourteen years. I promise to propose to your daughter soon; give me fourteen years and it'll happen. Whole congregations sit in rapt belief every Sunday in modern futurist congregations, taking in this dysfunctional use of "soon," treating it as truth when it is, in fact, a pile of contradiction. It contradicts God's word, and it contradicts reason.

Yeah something like that, but we dont know for sure

Very well. If what you have said in agreement with me is true, then you and I will both know for certain, without any doubt, whether that belief is true and correct in fourteen years. We may speculate now, but in fourteen years we will know, and we will know without any doubt.

The problem with that viewpoint is.....

• Not a single similar use of "soon" has been correct in the last 200 years and
• If we die in fourteen years, we will draw our last breath knowing we were wrong AND we were wrong teaching others to believe our belief. We will die as false teachers.

This is what modern futurism does to otherwise good, earnest, faithful Christians. Some modern futurist (mf) Christians know and understand these problems but do nothing about them. Other mf Christians wrestle with these problems their entire life trying to find some means of reconciling the contradictions only to die unsuccessful. Some mf Christians leave the theology, study the alternatives and choose one that does not have these problems. Some mf Christians lash out at anyone who broaches these concerns and asks for thoughtful, deliberate, patient, goodwill discussion because they have difficulty with self-examination and put the very real and substantive problems of modern futurism on others. Some, a minority, are just trolls. There are no modern futurist Christians who have ever been able to reconcile the contradictions.

If Jesus can literally return at any time, then stop claiming there are events that must first occur before he returns. If the time when Jesus returns is unknowable, then stop claiming signs exist and you know what they are. No other eschatology has these problems. As far as these matters goes, every other eschatology would be better.

 

[brightfame52]

Fourteen years is not soon. Neither is 2000 years. God NEVER used the word "soon" to mean "more than two thousand years. He never used the word to mean anything other than "close in time or space." He never used the word to mean anything other than it's normal meaning in ordinary usage. Some words, like "life" or "death," He used in multiple ways but the word "soon" was never used to mean anything other than soon.

Look it up and verify that fact.

Do the word study. Do the work and verify that fact.

Well then..... If the word "soon" could mean as much as fourteen years, what makes you think God did NOT mean fourteen years when He first used the word? Do you see the problem? Every day we turn on a Christian radio and hear preachers saying, "I believe Jesus will be returning soon," and when they use the word "soon" they mean soon. They mean Jesus will be returning within a brief period of time. There is an unstated urgency when they speak of "soon" because they want people to repent and come to Jesus now, and if they aren't going to come to Christ now then they should come soon because Jesus will be returning soon. They need to repent and believe before his soon coming.

But not a single one of them ever tells their audience they are not reading God's use of "soon" the same way they use the word "soon." They never disclose the fact they are using the word with its normal meaning in ordinary usage but do NOT do the same with God's use of the word "soon" even though God never uses the word soon in any other way.

In other words, they do not practice what they preach .

• Modern futurists say they believe Jesus could come at any time, but they also say Jesus won't be coming until after the tribulation. Those two beliefs contradict one another.
• Modern futurists say Jesus can return any day at any time but they also say Jesus will not return until after the tribulation, or after a temple is built or after the land is all recaptured, or after sacrifices are reinstituted, or all of those things combined. Jesus cannot return any day at any time if a bunch of stuff has to happens before he returns.
• Modern futurists say no one knows the day or hour but they constantly say he is coming soon. A person has to either know when he is coming in order to qualify it as "soon," or he has to redefine the word "soon."
• Modern futurists say no one knows the day or time but they say there are signs that determine the time when he comes, signs that they and anyone else can recognize as signs of his return. If no one can know the day or time, then there are no signs and if there are signs then the time of his return can be known. These viewpoints contradict each other.
• Modern futurists either use the word "soon" differently than God in His word, or they deny their meaning applies to God's use of the word.

They do it every single day. They fill forum threads with these contradictions. It would be best if these contradictions were removed from their eschatology, but that would require relaxing the allegiance to modern futurism and putting it into greater allegiance to God's word as written and reason.

God never uses the word "soon" to mean anything but soon. When you use the word "soon," you mean soon but you're flexible with that meaning. It can mean as long as fourteen years.

I will fix your car soon. It'll be ready for you in fourteen years. I'll pick you up soon. It'll be fourteen years after you're ready. The jury will decide your case soon. They will deliberate for fourteen years. I promise to propose to your daughter soon; give me fourteen years and it'll happen. Whole congregations sit in rapt belief every Sunday in modern futurist congregations, taking in this dysfunctional use of "soon," treating it as truth when it is, in fact, a pile of contradiction. It contradicts God's word, and it contradicts reason.

Very well. If what you have said in agreement with me is true, then you and I will both know for certain, without any doubt, whether that belief is true and correct in fourteen years. We may speculate now, but in fourteen years we will know, and we will know without any doubt.

The problem with that viewpoint is.....

• Not a single similar use of "soon" has been correct in the last 200 years and
• If we die in fourteen years, we will draw our last breath knowing we were wrong AND we were wrong teaching others to believe our belief. We will die as false teachers.

This is what modern futurism does to otherwise good, earnest, faithful Christians. Some modern futurist (mf) Christians know and understand these problems but do nothing about them. Other mf Christians wrestle with these problems their entire life trying to find some means of reconciling the contradictions only to die unsuccessful. Some mf Christians leave the theology, study the alternatives and choose one that does not have these problems. Some mf Christians lash out at anyone who broaches these concerns and asks for thoughtful, deliberate, patient, goodwill discussion because they have difficulty with self-examination and put the very real and substantive problems of modern futurism on others. Some, a minority, are just trolls. There are no modern futurist Christians who have ever been able to reconcile the contradictions.

If Jesus can literally return at any time, then stop claiming there are events that must first occur before he returns. If the time when Jesus returns is unknowable, then stop claiming signs exist and you know what they are. No other eschatology has these problems. As far as these matters goes, every other eschatology would be better.

Who knows maybe Trump is our last President!

 

[Josheb]

I can answer your {edit} post in one sentence...

Zech 14 speaks of after Jesus arrived...not His arrival method.

Another argument from silence. What Zec 14 does not state can fill many pages of posts. What it does state is very specific. I did not ask for a verse that "speaks" of something. I asked for a verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth prior to Rev 21 and I asked for a verse that explicitly states the white horse left heaven.

Do you know and understand the meaning of the word "explicitly"?
Do you know the meaning of the word "stated"?

If so, then please provide me with a verse that explicitly states Jesus is physically on earth prior to Revelation 21. If so, then please provide me with a verse that explicitly states the white horse has left heaven.

If not, then acknowledge what you teach is not explicitly taught by scripture at that position can be reached only by eisegetic inference.

We learn of that in Rev 19.

Only if it is assumed the two texts are related as modern futurism teaches. Neither Zechariah 14:3 nor Revelation 19:11-16 themselves make that connection. I asked for explicit statements about Jesus being physically on earth when modern futurism says that will happen and you have yet to prove such a verse. I asked for a verse explicitly stating the white horse has left heaven. What Zec 14 and Rev 19 do NOT state is not an answer to what is explicitly stated.

I can answer your {edit} post in one sentence...

Zech 14 speaks of after Jesus arrived...not His arrival method. We learn of that in Rev 19.

That is two sentences.

 

[Josheb]

Nice try...Jesus fights and strikes down the nations.

Yes, he does. He does it with the sword in his mouth, not a sword in his hand, and he does it while riding a white horse in heaven. You appealed to that text as an example of scripture explicitly stating the white horse has left heaven but that is not what the text states. The question asked, therefore, has not yet been answered.


Please show me the verse that explicitly states the white horse left heaven.


.

All I'm doing is quoting scripture and connecting the dots. It's not that hard because each speak of Jesus second coming. In fact the same sort of language is used as I have already pointed out.

{edit}

ROTFLMBO!

No, that is not all you're doing.

 

[Tambora]

Explain this....1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

It sounds like Paul is talking about going from one physical place to another.

Here's the corresponding verses:

1 Thessalonians 4​

(13) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

(14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.​

(15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.​

(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

(17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

(18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​

That's at the end when our corruptible bodies become incorruptible.
We know it's at the end because of verse 13 & 14 telling people that no one who will ever fall asleep (die physically) will ever be resurrected before the coming of the Lord.
We also know it's talking about the end because the coming of the Lord will be with a shout, and with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.
In other words, it is a time that everyone will know about.
Not to mention that Paul specifically says that there will NOT be a time prior to that when anyone is resurrected.
It's a one-time event that will not be repeated.

 

[CrowCross]

Sounds like? Could be? Why guess? Go find out. Without any eisegesis that reads presuppositions into it.

Then what is it?

That is because there never is a return of Christ on a white horse. That has been explained and the explanation ignored. The rapture at the resurrection is the resurrected saints and those saints living when he returns are caught up to meet him in the air. There is no mention of the glorified saints continuing up away from the earth, or of Jesus reversing direction and going back up. The Thess passage is discussing Christ's return to the earth in victory. So, either the saints remain suspended, or they return with him. Since it says they will be with him forever, they must return with him. If Jesus returns a third time to rule from Jerusalem over the Jews for a thousand years, those glorified saints will not be with him, will they? Every word matters.

If you say so. I disagree.

Jesus said, in my Fathers house there are many mansions...He says, I'll come back for you...take you there.
.........................................................................................................That's the rapture/resurrection

 

[CrowCross]

See post #228.

see post 236.

 

[CrowCross]

Another argument from silence.

At that point I took a long breath and sighed.....then stopped reading your post.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, he does. He does it with the sword in his mouth, not a sword in his hand, and he does it while riding a white horse in heaven. You appealed to that text as an example of scripture explicitly stating the white horse has left heaven but that is not what the text states. The question asked, therefore, has not yet been answered.

It appears to be true with you....you can lead a to but you can't make him drink. Giddy up.

BTW....Can you show me a verse that explicitly states the Trinity? No connecting dots.

 

[Eleanor]

It appears to be true with you....you can lead a to but you can't make him drink. Giddy up.

BTW....Can you show me a verse that explicitly states the Trinity? No connecting dots.

Mt 28:19?