The PRE-tribulation RAPTURE saves the Christians from the WRATH!!!

[Josheb]

I don't disagree. But the bible also speaks of a wrath in Rev 3:10....that speaks of what happens in the book of Revelation that the christians who are alive at that time will be delivered from and the ENTIRE EARTH would experience. Just like Noah and Lot was delivered...and Jesus wasn't talking about their "sin" that would send them to an eternity in hell but about the disaster that was about to happen.

I have shown you several times.....Jesus didn't leave on a white horse. The times of Noah with eating, drinking and marriage doesn't appear to be the thing of the day at the end of the tribulation bur rather it looks more like a pre-tribulation event. John mentions we are not destined for wrath...which surely is pre-trib. Perhaps the mid-trib or pre-wrath rapture eschatology applies. Jesus says He will return and take us to the mansions that He's preparing.

We've been discussing these points as well as others.

You do know that after the rapture...that is during the tribulation of Revelation many will come to Christ? Immediately after the rapture the mount of Christians on earth will equal "0"....then increase?

Ad nauseam. Every single statement in those two posts has already been addressed. You are not addressing the rebuttal, and you are not moving the conversation forward. You are just repeating already posted content that has all already been addressed.

The rapture occurs at the coming of Christ. The rapture is not a separate event. Christ comes after the thousand years of Revelation 20. Not once in this entire half dozen ops have has even one scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth been provided. The entire case for pre-tribulational separate rapture is built on inference, and the inferences contradict what is explicitly stated. What is explicitly states is the disciples will be delivers to tribulation and immediately after the great tribulation they will see the sign of Christ's coming. What is explictly states is those who've washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb have gone through the great tribulation. None of them were removed beforehand. It would be impossible to simultaneously be removed beforehand from the great tribulation and also go through the great tribulation. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive conditions.

 

[CrowCross]

No, when he says "this generation" he means the generation he was speaking to and in. Otherwise generation would not have a meaning .

I and many, many others see meaning. But, of course your meaning is the only meaning.

"This generation" was the generation that would see the temple destroyed,

The bible...KJV...says....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Can you make a list of the "all"

judgement passed on Israel, and the old covenant system of worship and relationship with God permanently dismantled. THEN Jesus also speaks of his return and the end of THIS age. Do I need to try and find yet another way to say it. Is it that no matter how many ways I say the same thing, you are simply going to reply no and repeat yourself? As though I did not say what I said at all, but you are simply going to "teach" me something I need to know. The only reason---the ONLY reason---that you insist on what you believe (and I don't for one minute think you do not understand what I have said and actually see the grammatical and common sense logic of it)is because you have used those scriptures as the foundation of your theory for so many years, and you will never acknowledge that it very well could be wrong.

What is that supposed to mean?

One has to admit no such thing. Like what? would be the place to present the manufacturing of your claim with some substance. Before you digress yet even further, tell me, is the beast really a beast? Does he really rise up out of the ocean? Does another beast come from him and rise up out of the earth? Etc.

What is the beast? What is the ocean?

No I neither said nor implied that? That is a straw man if ever there was one

Do you think you weaken my argument by labeling it Amillennialist Orthodox theology? To answer your question I will give the same one Jesus gave. No one knows. I don't try and determine when he will return.

Is that a dispensation in dispensationalism? Then how is my view of dispensations skewed. From Adam to the flood was a period of time. From the day of my birth to my 79th year is also a period of time. It is the way in which dispensationalism is using periods of time to interpret Scripture that is wrong. I am in the process of writing a thread on that so will deal with it there. So if dispensation is being used to express a period of time or and "age", then of course it is a dispensation. But it is not an interpretive tool. And it isn't from Adam to the flood in dispensationalism. It is from the fall of Adam to the flood.

I'll wait for the thread.

Not all speculation is equal. What you speculated about can be found no place in the Bible for you were naming actual years, and getting those dates from current history. The only thing I speculated about is something that could be the case given what the Bible does tell us, and that is that something might be what occurs when Satan is released from not being able to deceive the nations. It is based on what we do have in his word. And I identified it as a possible or even likely occurrence rather than stating it as fact.

So you have said on many occasions. So what? Does what you see and don't see have anything to do with determining what is true?

How does one unite something from something ?

How do you know where he is?

I don't know of any preaches who do preach that. And people can conclude whatever they want to from what I say. You certainly do and repeat it back to me bearing no resemblance to what I said. The key to not doing that is to set aside your own beliefs when reading what I am posting, instead of reading your beliefs into my words. As though if I do not believe the same way you do, then according to my beliefs, whatever I say means I am saying what you believe about it.

Let me clarify what I mean.

You believe Satan is not bound in a bottomless pit right now.

yes

You believe that according to Scripture he will be some day.

yes

Your evidence that he is not bound in a bottomless pit is that he is active in this world now and in the lives of all people.

yes

You believe he will be bound for a thousand years because you also believe the millennium is a literal thousand years.

yes

Therefore to you,

If I say the millennium is figurative of a long period of time and we are in that time now
Then I am saying Satan is bound in a bottomless pit right now.
Therefore I am saying he has no influence over people or in the world right now.

What does the word "nations" mean?

But lo and behold. I am not saying any of those things, other than the first thing that identifies the millennium in my view. What I do say and do before I say it is consider the utterly ignored passage that states what Satan is bound from doing. Not everything. Just from deceiving the nations. Now many people are still being deceived so what does that mean---"nations"? It doesn't say people, it says nations. And that at once makes me think of the many other times Scripture mentions nations in connection with the gospel being spread, to where---all nations. And I know that the purpose of the gospel going to all nations is so that the elect will hear and believe. I know Jesus mentions sending harvesters into the field to gather the wheat. Aha! This spreading of the gospel to all nations is the voice of the Shepherd calling to the sheep and gathering them to him.

What then does it mean that Satan is released from this binding but that then he can deceive the nations? And this is where I can only surmise from silence, but remembering the promise of persecution of the saints. And since that has been ongoing since his day until now, how will it be different from that. So I surmise that it will be government persecution of Christians and Christian institutions and ideas that affect all governments in all nations. And I surmise it, for my own self and in my own mind, I do not state it as fact.

{ Edited for changing the subject and refusing to deal with the material it is responding to. Violation of rule 4.7 and 2.2}




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[CrowCross]

Ad nauseam. Every single statement in those two posts has already been addressed. You are not addressing the rebuttal, and you are not moving the conversation forward. You are just repeating already posted content that has all already been addressed.

The rapture occurs at the coming of Christ.

I agree. When Jesus comes NOT riding a white horse.

The rapture is not a separate event. Christ comes after the thousand years of Revelation 20. Not once in this entire half dozen ops have has even one scripture explicitly stating Jesus is physically on earth been provided.

Zech 14??? In order for Christ to physically stand on the earth He has to dismount from His white horse.
Remember, at the rapture/resurrection there is no white horse.

The entire case for pre-tribulational separate rapture is built on inference, and the inferences contradict what is explicitly stated.

No, your white horse at the 1 Thes 4:16 raptures requires a contradiction....The angels said Jesus would return like he left. Where is the horse?

What is explicitly states is the disciples will be delivers to tribulation and immediately after the great tribulation they will see the sign of Christ's coming.

Yup, that GENERATION.

What is explictly states is those who've washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb have gone through the great tribulation. None of them were removed beforehand. It would be impossible to simultaneously be removed beforehand from the great tribulation and also go through the great tribulation. Those two conditions are mutually exclusive conditions.

When you die is your spirit not removed?

 

[Josheb]

I and many, many others see meaning.

Point of correction: Modern futurists assign meaning and do so at the expense of what is explicitly stated.

But, of course your meaning is the only meaning.

Whole scripture provides its own meaning.

 

[Arial]

I and many, many others see meaning. But, of course your meaning is the only meaning.

And many, many others do not insert that meaning into it because they do not interpret Scripture through a dispenstional framework. But of course, apparently it is your meaning that is the only meaning. BTW there are not many different meanings or two different meanings, there is only one meaning. Jesus' meaning.

The bible...KJV...says....Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Can you make a list of the "all"

Sure. I will take it right out of Jesus' words.
1. The temple will be torn down, not one stone left upon another.
2. They will lay hands on the disciples
3. They will be persecuted
4.They will be delivered up to synagogues and prisons
4. They will be brought before kings and governors for his name's sake.
5.They will be delivered up b relatives
6. Some of them will be put to death.
7. They will be hated for his name's sake.
8. Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and its desolation is at hand.
9. They (those of that generation) will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among the nations.
10.Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.

Those are the "all things" that will happen if the generation of the disciples. They will happen before Christ's return and the other "all things" mentioned in Luke 21 will all be happening until he returns.
1. Wars and tumults but the end will not be at once.
2.Nation rising against nation.
3. earthquakes, famines and pestilences.
4.Terrors and great signs from heaven.

But before all that (12)----the 1-10 above.

 

[Josheb]

Zech 14??? In order for Christ to physically stand on the earth He has to dismount from His white horse.

Try reading the entire passage. An earthquake like the one described in Zec 14 would literally destroy Jerusalem in its entirety and all its inhabitants. There'd be no one to see Jesus standing on the Mount. They'd all be dead. And, btw, the horse is never stated to have left heaven. Everything in the book of Revelation - whether it occurs in heaven or on the earth - is commanded from heaven. Jesus' riding the horse occurs in heaven. It is an assumption he leaves heaven prior to chapter 21-22, not an actual fact explicitly stated in Revelation. It is just one more eiseetic inference made by modern futurism they cannot justify with anything exegetically explicit.

Remember, at the rapture/resurrection there is no white horse.

Which simply means the comments have nothing to do with the title of this op. The op mentions the white horse as if the passage supports the rapture position being defended but here we find something overtly contradictory stated: There is no white horse at the rapture.

Then why mention it at all?​

Because it obfuscates both the defense of the separated rapture and the failure to address the rebuttal.


A sound exegesis of Zechariah 14 irrefutably excludes the possibility of a literal reading because his standing on the Mt. of Olives destroys the city! A sound exegesis observes that "all the holy ones" are already with Jesus when he stands on the MoO. A sound exegesis would also observe the events of Zec 14 occur when "the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one." which has all already happened.

• The LORD is King over all the earth.
• The LORD is the only one who is King over all the earth.
• The LORD's name is the only name (ruling over all the earth).

Let me know if you dispute Jesus is NOW King of all kings, all power and authority have been given to him, his rule is far above all other rule and his name alone is superior over all others, because if you do not understand those facts or otherwise deny them I will gladly walk with you through the relevant scripture in the New Testament that prove Jesus is that guy. And if you accept those points as the facts and truths of the New Testament....... then your rendering of Zec 14 is lacking, the case for the pre-trib rapture contradict scripture and the case presented contradicts itself.

Clean up at Post 103!


Let's try to take this one step at a time. Does Matthew 24:9 explicitly state disciples will be handed over/delivered to tribulation or not? Yes or no?

 

[Arial]

What is the beast? What is the ocean?

Answer the questions I ask you about the beast first.

What does the word "nations" mean?

Why are you even asking me that? You treated that whole clarification by demonstration, of what I mean when I say you take my view and treat it according to what it would mean from our view, and treated it like it was a statement of your beliefs as opposed to my beliefs. Not only did you miss what I was saying but you completely missed why I was saying it. You know, I give up. There is no way to deal with someone who does not bother to even try and comprehend what other people say, and just makes up their own wind and talks, talks talks about what ever THEY want to say.

 

[Arial]

Try reading the entire passage. An earthquake like the one described in Zec 14 would literally destroy Jerusalem in its entirety and all its inhabitants. There'd be no one to see Jesus standing on the Mount. They'd all be dead. And, btw, the horse is never stated to have left heaven. Everything in the book of Revelation - whether it occurs in heaven or on the earth - is commanded from heaven. Jesus' riding the horse occurs in heaven. It is an assumption he leaves heaven prior to chapter 21-22, not an actual fact explicitly stated in Revelation. It is just one more eiseetic inference made by modern futurism they cannot justify with anything exegetically explicit.

Which simply means the comments have nothing to do with the title of this op. The op mentions the white horse as if the passage supports the rapture position being defended but here we find something overtly contradictory stated: There is no white horse at the rapture.

Then why mention it at all?​

Because it obfuscates both the defense of the separated rapture and the failure to address the rebuttal.


A sound exegesis of Zechariah 14 irrefutably excludes the possibility of a literal reading because his standing on the Mt. of Olives destroys the city! A sound exegesis observes that "all the holy ones" are already with Jesus when he stands on the MoO. A sound exegesis would also observe the events of Zec 14 occur when "the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one." which has all already happened.

• The LORD is King over all the earth.
• The LORD is the only one who is King over all the earth.
• The LORD's name is the only name (ruling over all the earth).

Let me know if you dispute Jesus is NOW King of all kings, all power and authority have been given to him, his rule is far above all other rule and his name alone is superior over all others, because if you do not understand those facts or otherwise deny them I will gladly walk with you through the relevant scripture in the New Testament that prove Jesus is that guy. And if you accept those points as the facts and truths of the New Testament....... then your rendering of Zec 14 is lacking, the case for the pre-trib rapture contradict scripture and the case presented contradicts itself.

Clean up at Post 103!


Let's try to take this one step at a time. Does Matthew 24:9 explicitly state disciples will be handed over/delivered to tribulation or not? Yes or no?

He is just going to come back with more of the same in violation of rule 4.7. if we keep talking to him. He apparently has no concern for what anyone else has to say, just wants a place to keep saying what he wants to say.
@CrowCross
It is what happens on every forum I have been on or visited. It is a tactic of everyone who is trying to support a false interpretation of Scripture that the Bible will not support whether it is dispensationalism, free will arguments, unitarianism, or Catholicism or anything else. They deflect, use logical fallacies, create diversions, red herring to exhaustion. Repeat, repeat, repeat, Never engaging with the content of any post. Energizer bunnies who never stop. This is said a a public warning to CrowCross as admin, not as an insult according to rule 5.4and 6.1
5.4. Moderators may intervene to maintain order. If doctrinal debates become disruptive, moderators reserve the right to issue warnings, remove posts, or temporarily close threads to prevent unnecessary strife.
6.1. Respect the role of moderators. Moderators have the final say in rule enforcement, working to ensure that discussions remain constructive and in line with the vision and purpose of the CCAM forums. Publicly debating or criticizing moderator actions within the thread is not allowed. If you have concerns, contact the moderation team privately.

 

[CrowCross]

Point of correction: Modern futurists assign meaning and do so at the expense of what is explicitly stated.

LOL....what-ever.

Whole scripture provides its own meaning.

I agree.....it's incredibly obvious that generation didn't see the return of Christ. It looks like this generation will. LOOK UP!

 

[CrowCross]

And many, many others do not insert that meaning into it because they do not interpret Scripture through a dispenstional framework. But of course, apparently it is your meaning that is the only meaning. BTW there are not many different meanings or two different meanings, there is only one meaning. Jesus' meaning.

Sure. I will take it right out of Jesus' words.
1. The temple will be torn down, not one stone left upon another.
2. They will lay hands on the disciples
3. They will be persecuted
4.They will be delivered up to synagogues and prisons
4. They will be brought before kings and governors for his name's sake.
5.They will be delivered up b relatives
6. Some of them will be put to death.
7. They will be hated for his name's sake.
8. Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies and its desolation is at hand.
9. They (those of that generation) will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among the nations.
10.Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles.

Those are the "all things" that will happen if the generation of the disciples. They will happen before Christ's return and the other "all things" mentioned in Luke 21 will all be happening until he returns.
1. Wars and tumults but the end will not be at once.
2.Nation rising against nation.
3. earthquakes, famines and pestilences.
4.Terrors and great signs from heaven.

But before all that (12)----the 1-10 above.

You left out "Your coming " as well as...Son of Man will appear in heaven.

Why were you selective and censored out that part?

 

[CrowCross]

Try reading the entire passage. An earthquake like the one described in Zec 14 would literally destroy Jerusalem in its entirety and all its inhabitants.

Would it? Where does the bible say the mountain splitting earthquake will destroy Jerusalem? You're speculating.

There'd be no one to see Jesus standing on the Mount. They'd all be dead. And, btw, the horse is never stated to have left heaven.

Yes it has....I just discussed this with Ariel.

14The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses. 15And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations

The armies followed Jesus...so Jesus was on the move. Where did Jesus go? Tth earth to strike doen the nations. Are those nations on another planet?

Everything in the book of Revelation - whether it occurs in heaven or on the earth - is commanded from heaven. Jesus' riding the horse occurs in heaven. It is an assumption he leaves heaven prior to chapter 21-22, not an actual fact explicitly stated in Revelation. It is just one more eiseetic inference made by modern futurism they cannot justify with anything exegetically explicit.

See verse 14 above.

Which simply means the comments have nothing to do with the title of this op. The op mentions the white horse as if the passage supports the rapture position being defended but here we find something overtly contradictory stated: There is no white horse at the rapture.

Then why mention it at all?​

Because it obfuscates both the defense of the separated rapture and the failure to address the rebuttal.


A sound exegesis of Zechariah 14 irrefutably excludes the possibility of a literal reading because his standing on the Mt. of Olives destroys the city! A sound exegesis observes that "all the holy ones" are already with Jesus when he stands on the MoO. A sound exegesis would also observe the events of Zec 14 occur when "the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one." which has all already happened.

Then what mountain splits? Mt. Hermon? No Josheb...the bible, NOT me says it will be the Mt. of Olives and it doesn't mention the destruction of Jerusalem. Now, you speculate...and say Jerusalem will be destroyed...NOT the bible.

• The LORD is King over all the earth.
• The LORD is the only one who is King over all the earth.
• The LORD's name is the only name (ruling over all the earth).

Let me know if you dispute Jesus is NOW King of all kings,

Nope, I don't dispute that. I don't think anyone who understands the truth of the pre-trib rapture would dispute that.

Are you now asserting all pre-trib believe dispute it?

all power and authority have been given to him, his rule is far above all other rule and his name alone is superior over all others, because if you do not understand those facts or otherwise deny them I will gladly walk with you through the relevant scripture in the New Testament that prove Jesus is that guy. And if you accept those points as the facts and truths of the New Testament....... then your rendering of Zec 14 is lacking, the case for the pre-trib rapture contradict scripture and the case presented contradicts itself.

Clean up at Post 103!


Let's try to take this one step at a time. Does Matthew 24:9 explicitly state disciples will be handed over/delivered to tribulation or not? Yes or no?

Yes it does...and it happened to all but John. NOW...did those disciples see Jesus return? You conviently forget that was part of it.

 

[CrowCross]

Answer the questions I ask you about the beast first.

Why are you even asking me that? You treated that whole clarification by demonstration, of what I mean when I say you take my view and treat it according to what it would mean from our view, and treated it like it was a statement of your beliefs as opposed to my beliefs. Not only did you miss what I was saying but you completely missed why I was saying it. You know, I give up. There is no way to deal with someone who does not bother to even try and comprehend what other people say, and just makes up their own wind and talks, talks talks about what ever THEY want to say.

The "beast" has many potential meanings...that's why I asked you about what you think it is.

The ocean could be just that....water. Or, it could mean a form of turmoil. {Edit: violation of rule 2.2}

When it comes to Rev 13...5The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven.

I believe this "beast" is a form of AI. My guess would be when AI reaches the singularity or becomes controled by the a fallen angel or demon.

{Edit:Violation of rule 2.2}

 

[Arial]

You left out "Your coming " as well as...Son of Man will appear in heaven.

Why were you selective and censored out that part?

I answered your request to list the "all things" that would happen in that generation. Jesus' return wasn't one of them so I did not list it.