The Mystery and power of God’s grace!

[donadams]

The Mystery and power of God’s grace!


Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Union with God thru Christ the mediator of the covenant!

Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jn 15:1-5
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Powerful grace enables us to do the will of God! Ez 36:25-27

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Initiation into the covenant of grace is by “faith and baptism”!

Mk 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[Josheb]

The Mystery and power of God’s grace!


Isa 53:5
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Union with God thru Christ the mediator of the covenant!

Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Jn 15:1-5
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Powerful grace enables us to do the will of God! Ez 36:25-27

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Initiation into the covenant of grace is by “faith and baptism”!

Mk 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Good op but the covenant of grace is not initiated by faith and I've always been a little iffy about this thing called "the covenant of grace" because it is not a phrase scripture uses.

 

[donadams]

Good op but the covenant of grace is not initiated by faith and I've always been a little iffy about this thing called "the covenant of grace" because it is not a phrase scripture uses.

Is christ the mediator of the new covenant?
Grace and truth came by Christ. Jn 1:16

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Thanks

 

[Josheb]

Is christ the mediator of the new covenant?
Grace and truth came by Christ. Jn 1:16

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Thanks

Yes, and that "new covenant" is brought about by the seed promised Abraham to whom that covenant was spoken and fulfilled by that seed in the holy nation of royal priests God spoke about to the people entering the promised land and both that land and the holy nation of many nations, along with that priesthood belong to the covenant first made to Abraham and his seed, Jesus. Direct lines from "new" to "old" can and are repeatedly draw by the New Testament writers themselves.

I reiterate the point made that was just ignored. The term, "covenant of grace," is nowhere found in the Bible. As far as Covenant Theology goes, that term is an addition to scripture (and one I think unnecessary even if it does have some explanatory value. It would be much better to use the phrase "covenant with Christ," (since Galatians 3 explicitly states the covenant was made with Abraham's seed), if the goal is to illuminate the continuity of covenant found in scripture from beginning to end.

 

[Josheb]

Good op but the covenant of grace is not initiated by faith.....

Is christ the mediator of the new covenant?

Yes, but he is not the initiator. His Father is the Initiator. The Father is the initiator (not the sinner's faith) and the Son (who is the logos of God that is God) is the mediator. In point of fact, ALL covenants with God in the Bible are God-initiated, and they are all monergistically initiated.

 

[donadams]

Yes, and that "new covenant" is brought about by the seed promised Abraham to whom that covenant was spoken and fulfilled by that seed in the holy nation of royal priests God spoke about to the people entering the promised land and both that land and the holy nation of many nations, along with that priesthood belong to the covenant first made to Abraham and his seed, Jesus. Direct lines from "new" to "old" can and are repeatedly draw by the New Testament writers themselves.

I reiterate the point made that was just ignored. The term, "covenant of grace," is nowhere found in the Bible. As far as Covenant Theology goes, that term is an addition to scripture (and one I think unnecessary even if it does have some explanatory value. It would be much better to use the phrase "covenant with Christ," (since Galatians 3 explicitly states the covenant was made with Abraham's seed), if the goal is to illuminate the continuity of covenant found in scripture from beginning to end.

Fortunately we don’t believe the false doctrine of “scripture alone”!

Thanks

 

[Josheb]

Fortunately we don’t believe the false doctrine of “scripture alone”!

Thanks

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

 

[Soyeong]

Is christ the mediator of the new covenant?
Grace and truth came by Christ. Jn 1:16

Hebrews 10:29
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of Grace?

Thanks

In Psalms 119:29 and Exodus 33:13, they wanted God to be gracious to them by teaching them to obey the Mosaic Law, and in Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, so it is incorrect to refer to the New Covenant as being a covenant of grace in contrast with the Mosaic Covenant being a covenant of law. In Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth, so grace and truth came through Jesus because he spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example.

 

[donadams]

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

We believe scripture of course but scripture requires other authorities

 

[donadams]

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

 

[Josheb]

Nice move of the goalposts.

We believe scripture of course but scripture requires other authorities

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

No one disputes the existence of other authorities. Sola Scriptura does not deny the existence of other authorities. If you think that's what it teaches, then your entire dissent is built on a strawman. I did not ask whether you believed scripture. I asked something very specific and I asked the question I asked because I want that question answered.

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

Please answer that question. Please answer it directly, without any obfuscation or neglect. It can and should be answered with one word, and it should not need to be asked more than once. Just answer the question asked.

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Funny you using scripture to make your point. So according to you, your scripture quotes arent authoritative alone.

 

[Josheb]

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Funny you using scripture to make your point. So according to you, your scripture quotes arent authoritative alone.

He's correct, don. Did the irony (using scripture as the authority) escape you?

 

[donadams]

Nice move of the goalposts.

No one disputes the existence of other authorities. Sola Scriptura does not deny the existence of other authorities. If you think that's what it teaches, then your entire dissent is built on a strawman. I did not ask whether you believed scripture. I asked something very specific and I asked the question I asked because I want that question answered.

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

Please answer that question. Please answer it directly, without any obfuscation or neglect. It can and should be answered with one word, and it should not need to be asked more than once. Just answer the question asked.

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

No of course not but that don’t include misunderstandings
Scripture is one thing what you think scripture means is another
And what you want it to mean is another!

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Funny you using scripture to make your point. So according to you, your scripture quotes arent authoritative alone.

Scripture yes!
Scripture alone no!

If scripture is the “only” authority then by what means is it interpreted?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

He's correct, don. Did the irony (using scripture as the authority) escape you?

Scripture is an authority but not the only authority
The apostles are also a God-vm breathed authority Jn 20:21 lk 10:16 etc.

 

[Josheb]

No of course not but..

No "buts"

The point is singular and unequivocal: Anything that contradicts God's word is not to be trusted. Therefore, whatever other authorities may exist, they cannot contradict scripture and be trusted.

Yes?

If scripture is the “only” authority,

No one likes repeating themselves. It has already been established there are other authorities. It has already been established sola scriptura does not say anything about denying the existence of other authorities. It has also now been established anything that contradicts God's word is not to be trusted.

If scripture is the “only” authority, then by what means is it interpreted?

Great question but that has nothing to do with sola scriptura. This is the third time now you've asked about or asserted a non sequitur. Regardless by what means it is (correctly) interpreted, scripture is the authority. When you ask, "By what means is it interpreted?" what you are asking is not "Is scripture the authority?" but "What authority interprets scripture?" and "What authority interprets the authoritative scripture?" and that is an entirely different question from "Is scripture the authority?" Since anything that contradicts scripture is not to be trusted, we necessarily know and understand any authority interpreting scripture cannot do so in any manner that contradicts scripture, otherwise, that "authority" isn't an authority and is not to be trusted on any such occasion.

Yes?

And the reason this is important is because since scripture is authoritative to all that it speaks and sufficient for understanding faith and the Christian life, we do not want just anyone interpreting it any way they like and claiming that is the authoritative way to read the scripture that is authoritative. We most definitely do not want a bunch of differing authorities interpreting the authoritative scripture in differing ways and creating multiple authorities and multiple authoritative views of scripture which would all be the authorities of Christians.

Yes?

 

[Josheb]

Scripture is an authority but not the only authority
The apostles are also a God-vm breathed authority Jn 20:21 Lk 10:16 etc.

The apostles could not contradict scripture. Furthermore, they were the authors of scripture, not the authorities over it. BIG difference. Conflating the two is a logical fallacy known as the false equivalence. Any apostle who contradicted scripture was not to be trusted.

Do you believe anything that contradicts God's word can be true?

No of course not...

Anything that contradicts God's word cannot be trusted. That includes the apostles. Paul was not free to interpret scripture differently than Peter and neither of them could interpret scripture different than James. And we know at least one of them, Peter, either interpreted scripture incorrectly and taught that incorrection to others and had to be corrected, or he ignored the scriptures and taught his own ideas and needed correction.

Galatians 2:11-14
But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For prior to the coming of certain men from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing the party of the circumcision. The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?"

I'm inclined to say Peter misread the scriptures because if he was off doing his own thing that would have disqualified him from being an apostle and prophet (and Pope). In the occasion described above Paul was authoritative over Peter. It's a curious juxtaposition because just a few verses earlier Paul reported he'd received some kind of "revelation" (presumably from God directly?) to go to Jerusalem and speak to the "pillars," those who were of "high reputation," and he went to them to make sure he wasn't "running in vain," all of which indicates Paul considered himself subject to their authority.

Galatians 2:5-6
But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you...... they contributed nothing to me.

hmmm... Paul went to the apostles in Jerusalem in obedience to a revelation he'd received to make sure he was not running in vain. They were to be the measure of his labor (was it fruitful or fruitless?) but he did not yield in subjection to them.

By the time Paul wrote the Galatians he'd had the opportunity to correct Peter for his double-minded hypocrisy that caused others to stumble.

Acts 15 tells us Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to address the teaching Paul's Gentile converts to Christ had to be circumcised.

Acts 15:1
Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

"The brethren determined" a small group, led by Paul and Barnabas, should go to Jerusalem. When they got there they found that some among the Jerusalem leadership were from the Pharisee sect and it was they who agreed with the men who came down from Judea.

Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

After James spoke in dissent of the former Pharisees, "it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church," to send Paul and the other out with letters to all the other congregations confirming three things:

• be of one mind
• Gentile converts don't need to be circumcised
• abstain from things sacrificed to idols and
• abstain from blood and from things strangled
• abstain from fornication

Paul won over the Apostles, and Peter is on record being in the wrong, teaching wrongly, and causing others to stumble, and the matter is established in scripture by two witnesses (Luke and Paul).



I suspect a lot of readers anticipate I am now going to rag on Catholics to prove Peter wasn't the first Pope, but I am not. I have no axe to Grind with the RCC. My point is something entirely different: Scripture tells us these authorities were not always correct; sometimes they were just plain wrong, and so wrong they caused injury to others.


Yes?


If so, then you cannot tell me anyone anywhere is more authoritative or more accurate with their interpretation than the apostles .

 

[Josheb]

@donadams,


Aside from your confirming the four "yesses" in the previous two posts, I have a question for you. I know the answer, but I'd like to know you know, I'd like to build from consensus, and I'd like the lurkers to benefit accordingly.



When did the Magisterium come into existence?

 

[brightfame52]

Scripture yes!
Scripture alone no!

If scripture is the “only” authority then by what means is it interpreted?

Thanks

By the Spirit with other Scripture 1 Cor 2:12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.