The Middle East Issue

[CrowCross]

@Buff Scott Jr.

While I acknowledge that God certainly has both the Power and the Right to assign land to whomever it pleases Him, do you have any scripture that even SUGGESTS that God withdrew His gift/Promise of land from Israel in AD 67-70?

(Your view seems as extra-Biblical as the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.)

Thanks for asking that question....I was thinking the same thing myself.

 

[Eleanor]

Eleanor:

Regarding your post #16, here are a few thoughts relative to that Post.

In a nutshell, Israel, as a Nationally established State, must defend herself against her enemies—and in a robust manner. But she and fundamental believers should cease asserting that the physical land of Israel belongs to the Jews forever because God promised it to them.​

Agreed.

God’s promise is ongoing, but not in the form it was originally awarded. From my perspective, National Israel does not own one inch of land by divine right. She owns it by National right only. It is not an exaggeration to say that during the Roman/Jewish war of A. D. 67-70, God removed forever the divine right of Jews to possess physical land—as a nation. They may no longer possess and rule by divine right.
Another interesting thought, and one you touched upon, is that God’s promise to give Israel natural—terrestrial—land was literally fulfilled under Joshua. “So the Lord gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their forefathers. Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to the house of Israel failed; everyone was fulfilled” (Joshua 21:43-45).
​

I make note of this because many supporters of National Israel today claim that the land promise is yet to be consummated or completed. The promise relating to physical land was fulfilled under Joshua, but because of their continual rebellion God removed all the land He had given them during the Roman/Jewish war of 67-70 A. D. In a spiritual sense, the promise pertaining to their possessing the land forever is still valid, but, as noted earlier, not in the configuration it was originally conferred.

The everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 48:4) is the heavenly land in the heavenly city (Heb 11:13-16).

 

[Eleanor]

While I acknowledge that God certainly has both the Power and the Right to assign land to whomever it pleases Him, do you have any scripture that even SUGGESTS that God withdrew His gift/Promise of land from Israel in AD 67-70?

But there was no land promise to Israel in AD 67-70, for before 1,000 BC, God's land promise to the seed of Abraham had been completely fulfilled, both in its full possession under Joshua (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and its full occupation under Solomon (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25), with the everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 48:4) being fulfilled in the heavenly land (Heb 1:13-16), not in earthly land.

Israel has no divine right/claim to any earthly land whatsoever.

 

[atpollard]

But there was no land promise to Israel in AD 67-70, for before 1,000 BC, God's land promise to the seed of Abraham had been completely fulfilled, both in its full possession under Joshua (Josh 23:14, 21:43) and its full occupation under Solomon (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25), with the everlasting possession (Ge 17:8, 48:4) being fulfilled in the heavenly land (Heb 1:13-16), not in earthly land.

Israel has no divine right/claim to any earthly land whatsoever.

The Pentateuch [how often do we get to use that word in a conversation ] talks about the land passing from generation to generation and Scripture [Romans 11:29] claims "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".
Has God changed from the OT to the NT?
Is the gift of salvation also given and revocable?

Setting that aside, the PEOPLE of Israel exist, they live where they live and have an unalienable right to LIFE and to continue to live on the land they occupy. Land taken in a war when they were attacked.

Genesis 48:3-4 [NASB20]
3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me, 4 and He said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a multitude of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'

 

[Rockerduck]

The only city on earth where God put His name is Jerusalem. That hasn't changed.

 

[Eleanor]

The Pentateuch [how often do we get to use that word in a conversation ] talks about the land passing from generation to generation and Scripture [Romans 11:29] claims "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".
Has God changed from the OT to the NT?
Is the gift of salvation also given and revocable?

The land promise is not "revoked," it is fulfilled, completed, done. There is no promise to do it again.

Setting that aside, the PEOPLE of Israel exist, they live where they live and have an unalienable right to LIFE and to continue to live on the land they occupy. Land taken in a war when they were attacked.

Genesis 48:3-4 [NASB20]
3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me, 4 and He said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a multitude of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'

I'm dealing with the OT land promise only, not today's situation.

I don't know the details well enough regarding their flight from Russia to Palestine in the late 1800's, and how they came to the right of being a separate state from Palestine, to have an opinion regarding it.

 

[EarlyActs]

The Pentateuch [how often do we get to use that word in a conversation ] talks about the land passing from generation to generation and Scripture [Romans 11:29] claims "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".
Has God changed from the OT to the NT?
Is the gift of salvation also given and revocable?

Setting that aside, the PEOPLE of Israel exist, they live where they live and have an unalienable right to LIFE and to continue to live on the land they occupy. Land taken in a war when they were attacked.

Genesis 48:3-4 [NASB20]
3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me, 4 and He said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a multitude of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'

It was a possession for a very long time (the phrase does not mean eternal; there will be a NHNE). But it also had conditions, even conditions given by Peter in Acts 3--that the place would be humiliatingly destroyed if Israel did not become missionaries.

The overall flow of Rom 11 is not that there is a separate blessing for the race-nation no matter what. That line is actually just an example that there will be a regular representation of Jewish believers (the remnant), which the OT said many times as well. Anyway, it is so late in history, how could it possibly be true that all Israel (the race-nation) would be saved. So it always meant those who were believers; and Romans always means justified from sins when using the term 'saved' nothing about the land.

At the same time, the race-nation has thousands of years there and belongs there. Just like Guatamala, etc.

 

[EarlyActs]

The only city on earth where God put His name is Jerusalem. That hasn't changed.

Sure it has; God gave Christ all the earth. God enthroned Christ in the resurrection. All the earth should be honoring Him, should think that his name is on them. His enemies will be smashed, Ps 2, 110.

 

[Eleanor]

The Pentateuch [how often do we get to use that word in a conversation ] talks about the land passing from generation to generation and Scripture [Romans 11:29] claims "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable".

They (Ro 11:29) being fulfilled in a remnant (Ro 11:1-5).

Has God changed from the OT to the NT?
Is the gift of salvation also given and revocable?

No, it is likewise fulfilled in a remnant.

Setting that aside, the PEOPLE of Israel exist, they live where they live and have an unalienable right to LIFE and to continue to live on the land they occupy. Land taken in a war when they were attacked.

Can you fill me in on their moving from Russia to Palestine beginning in the late 1800's, and how they came to own the Palestinians' land?

Genesis 48:3-4 [NASB20]
3 Then Jacob said to Joseph, "God Almighty appeared to me at Luz in the land of Canaan and blessed me, 4 and He said to me, 'Behold, I will make you fruitful and numerous, and I will make you a multitude of peoples, and will give this land to your descendants after you as an everlasting possession.'

The everlasting possession is the heavenly land (Heb 11:13-16).

 

[Eleanor]

The only city on earth where God put His name is Jerusalem. That hasn't changed.

The church is the new (Mount Zion) Jerusalem (Heb 12:22).

 

[atpollard]

Can you fill me in on their moving from Russia to Palestine beginning in the late 1800's, and how they came to own the Palestinians' land?

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the British assumed control of Palestine. In November 1917, the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, announcing its intention to facilitate the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine which included, among other things, provisions calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, facilitating Jewish immigration and encouraging Jewish settlement on the land.

The Arabs were opposed to Jewish immigration to Palestine and stepped up their attacks against the Jews. Following an increase in Arab attacks, the British appointed a royal commission in 1936 to investigate the Palestine situation. The Peel Commission recommended the partition of the country between Arabs and Jews. The Arabs rejected the idea while the Jews accepted the principle of partition.

At the end of World War II, the British persisted in their immigration restrictions and Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were violently turned away from the shores of Palestine. The Jewish Agency and the Haganah continued to smuggle Jews into Palestine. Underground cells of Jews, most notably the Irgun and Lehi, engaged in open warfare against the British and their installations.

The British concluded that they could no longer manage Palestine and handed the issue over to the United Nations. On November 29, 1947, after much debate and discussion, the UN recommended the partition of Palestine into two states one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the UN resolution while the Arabs rejected it.

Meanwhile, since the time of the British Mandate, the Jewish community in Palestine had been forming political, social and economic institutions that governed daily life in Palestine and served as a pre-state infrastructure. Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) served as head of the pre-state government.

The British mandate over Palestine officially terminated at midnight, May 14, 1948. Earlier in the day, at 4:00 p.m., David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of the State of Israel and became its first prime minister. Longtime advocate of Zionism in Britain Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) became Israel's first president. On May 15, the United States recognized the State of Israel and the Soviet Union soon followed suit.
The fledgling State of Israel was faced with many challenges. While fighting a war of survival with the Arab states who immediately invaded the new nation, Israel had to also absorb the shiploads of immigrants coming in daily to the Jewish homeland. Many were penniless refugees from Europe broken in body and in spirit. They needed immediate health and social services in addition to acculturation to their new home.
from HERE

1967 war: Six days that changed the Middle East​

At the end of 1948, Israel's Arab neighbours had invaded to try to destroy the new state, and failed. The Egyptian army had been beaten, but a force surrounded in a piece of land known as the Falluja pocket refused to surrender.
A group of young Egyptian and Israeli officers tried to break the impasse. Among them was Yitzhak Rabin, a 26-year-old Israeli military prodigy who was head of operations on the southern front, and the 30-year-old Egyptian Major Gamal Abdel Nasser.
Just a few years after the Nazis had killed six million Jews, the dream of establishing a state in their biblical homeland had come true.

Palestinians call 1948 "al-Nakba", or "the Catastrophe". Up to 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from the land that became Israel, and were never allowed back.
For the Arabs, defeat at the hands of the fledgling Israeli state was a seismic political moment that led to years of upheaval.

 

[Eleanor]

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the British assumed control of Palestine. In November 1917, the British government issued the Balfour Declaration, announcing its intention to facilitate the "establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people." In 1922, the League of Nations granted Britain a mandate over Palestine which included, among other things, provisions calling for the establishment of a Jewish homeland, facilitating Jewish immigration and encouraging Jewish settlement on the land.

The Arabs were opposed to Jewish immigration to Palestine and stepped up their attacks against the Jews. Following an increase in Arab attacks, the British appointed a royal commission in 1936 to investigate the Palestine situation. The Peel Commission recommended the partition of the country between Arabs and Jews. The Arabs rejected the idea while the Jews accepted the principle of partition.

At the end of World War II, the British persisted in their immigration restrictions and Jewish survivors of the Holocaust were violently turned away from the shores of Palestine. The Jewish Agency and the Haganah continued to smuggle Jews into Palestine. Underground cells of Jews, most notably the Irgun and Lehi, engaged in open warfare against the British and their installations.

The British concluded that they could no longer manage Palestine and handed the issue over to the United Nations. On November 29, 1947, after much debate and discussion, the UN recommended the partition of Palestine into two states one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the UN resolution while the Arabs rejected it.

Meanwhile, since the time of the British Mandate, the Jewish community in Palestine had been forming political, social and economic institutions that governed daily life in Palestine and served as a pre-state infrastructure. Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion (1886-1973) served as head of the pre-state government.

The British mandate over Palestine officially terminated at midnight, May 14, 1948. Earlier in the day, at 4:00 p.m., David Ben-Gurion proclaimed the creation of the State of Israel and became its first prime minister. Longtime advocate of Zionism in Britain Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952) became Israel's first president. On May 15, the United States recognized the State of Israel and the Soviet Union soon followed suit.
The fledgling State of Israel was faced with many challenges. While fighting a war of survival with the Arab states who immediately invaded the new nation, Israel had to also absorb the shiploads of immigrants coming in daily to the Jewish homeland. Many were penniless refugees from Europe broken in body and in spirit. They needed immediate health and social services in addition to acculturation to their new home.
from HERE

1967 war: Six days that changed the Middle East​

At the end of 1948, Israel's Arab neighbours had invaded to try to destroy the new state, and failed. The Egyptian army had been beaten, but a force surrounded in a piece of land known as the Falluja pocket refused to surrender.
A group of young Egyptian and Israeli officers tried to break the impasse. Among them was Yitzhak Rabin, a 26-year-old Israeli military prodigy who was head of operations on the southern front, and the 30-year-old Egyptian Major Gamal Abdel Nasser.
Just a few years after the Nazis had killed six million Jews, the dream of establishing a state in their biblical homeland had come true.

Palestinians call 1948 "al-Nakba", or "the Catastrophe". Up to 750,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from the land that became Israel, and were never allowed back.
For the Arabs, defeat at the hands of the fledgling Israeli state was a seismic political moment that led to years of upheaval.

Thanks so much!

So the Jews migrated from Russia into Palestine in the late 1800's,
WWI ended up with Britain assuming control of Palestine,
then turning Palestine over to the United Nations,
which divided Palestine into two nations, Jews and Arabs.

So it all went south at the end of WWI?

 

[atpollard]

So it all went south at the end of WWI?

I think things started to go south with the Babylonian invasion ... went south with the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in AD 70 ... REALLY went south with the arrival of Mohammad and the Muslim mandate to drive the Jews from the Holy Land. Then pretty much remained "status quo" for a long time, and reignited with the Zion Movement and return of Jews to Palestine starting around WW1 and exploding into a flood after the Russian purge and German Holocaust. Arab resolve that "Jews" needed to leave or die remains unchanged since the Book of Ester (perhaps even Esau upon Jacob's return).

Just my opinion.

 

[Eleanor]

Thanks so much!

So the Jews migrated from Russia into Palestine in the late 1800's,
WWI ended up with Britain assuming control of Palestine,
then turning Palestine over to the United Nations,
which divided Palestine into two nations, Jews and Arabs.

So it all went south at the end of WWI?

I think things started to go south with the Babylonian invasion ... went south with the Roman sacking of Jerusalem in AD 70 ... REALLY went south with the arrival of Mohammad and the Muslim mandate to drive the Jews from the Holy Land. Then pretty much remained "status quo" for a long time, and reignited with the Zion Movement and return of Jews to Palestine starting around WW1 and exploding into a flood after the Russian purge and German Holocaust. Arab resolve that "Jews" needed to leave or die remains unchanged since the Book of Ester (perhaps even Esau upon Jacob's return).

Just my opinion.

So they lived in Israel for another five centuries after 70 AD before there was a problem; i.e., the Muslims?

 

[atpollard]

So they lived in Israel for another five centuries after 70 AD before there was a problem; i.e., the Muslims?

I think so.

My Byzantine History is a little rusty.

 

[atpollard]

So they lived in Israel for another five centuries after 70 AD before there was a problem; i.e., the Muslims?

I looked it up.

Under the Byzantine Empire, Jews faced various persecutions by Christians (mostly legal harassment ... like a ban on a Christian marrying a Jew or a Jewish parent disinheriting a child that converted to Christianity). In Israel (Palestine), Jews were displaced by Christians in Judea but continued to live in more than 40 rural communities throughout Galilee and the Golan Heights.

The Christian Byzantine Empire was destroyed by the conquest that created the Muslim Ottoman Empire in the 1400's.
[FYI: Jews actually did better under the Ottoman Empire than the Byzantine Empire outside of Palestine ... less persecution. Too little data available on life in Palestine during that period.]

 

[Eleanor]

I looked it up.

Under the Byzantine Empire, Jews faced various persecutions by Christians (mostly legal harassment ... like a ban on a Christian marrying a Jew or a Jewish parent disinheriting a child that converted to Christianity). In Israel (Palestine), Jews were displaced by Christians in Judea but continued to live in more than 40 rural communities throughout Galilee and the Golan Heights.

The Christian Byzantine Empire was destroyed by the conquest that created the Muslim Ottoman Empire in the 1400's.
[FYI: Jews actually did better under the Ottoman Empire than the Byzantine Empire outside of Palestine ... less persecution. Too little data available on life in Palestine during that period.]

Thanks so much.