THE IMPORTANCE OF THE TORAH

[Fred]

Well, as Gentiles were never under the Law just continue the tradition.
And if you survive Armageddon know that when God sits upon His throne in Jerusalem and the Jews finally occupy their Promised Land and God Himself cleanses all Gentiles from Hebrew land that you'll be living outside the Promised Land and that all mankind - Jew and Gentile - will be living under the Law (of Moses/God), and must under command make a pilgrimage to Jerusalem yearly to celebrate one of the three major feasts in the Law of Moses - the Feast of Tabernacles.

Here is something else, as Saul would frequently say, "don't be ignorant of" and it is this:

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
Rev. 20:7–9.

Be advised. When the thousand years are expired Satan will be loosed out of his prison and go out to deceive these nations of Gentiles to deceive them and gather them on the outskirts of the Promised Land for one final onslaught against the people of God (Jews), a great number of Gentiles as the sand of the sea, and probably the moment a foot so much as touches the camp of the Lord's saints just like any one foot of even an animal that touched the Mount Sinai in Exodus died on the spot, fire from heaven comes down and devours them all so that who's left to inherit the earth?
Jews.
What started with a Hebrew (Abram) will end with the Hebrew and God's true Church and Bride, will live together forever happily ever after. Full circle. Now THAT'S something the Gentile church should take notice of.

Total dodge in that the other 9 are clearly taught in the New Covenant.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Not the true God of the Bible.

A covenant Hebrew would disagree. Then again, all Hebrews are in covenant with God.
Yet Gentiles are taught for 1900 years when they in their hatred and misunderstanding of the salvation of the Lord and the Jews think because once Gentiles unmoored their fellowship from its Hebrew roots and became its own religion then error and falsehood is the result.
Like Saul says, "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the [Gentile] flesh" and get them back to the Hebrew roots upon which their salvation derives, but it will not happen. God will not allow it. But it's a good sentiment. Everything will occur as God ordained before He created heaven, earth, and man.
If you survive Armageddon be sure to know God's Law. You'll be living under it until the Great Deception.

 

[Fred]

A covenant Hebrew would disagree.

Says you.
The other 9 are there.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Total dodge in that the other 9 are clearly taught in the New Covenant.

Of course, a New Covenant between God and the House of Israel (Gentiles excluded.)

I think this Scripture is appropriate:

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: Rom. 2:12.

and this:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. Lk 10:25–28.

Not only did Christ direct the man to the Law of Moses He also instructed the man to continue to be obedient to the Law of Moses and eternal life will be his inheritance.
Tell me, under what covenant do Gentiles have inheritance.
The answer is NONE.
Get your doctrine in order because your life is now in your own hands being advised.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Says you.
The other 9 are there.

So, what are you saying? There is no longer any sabbath for the Hebrew/Jew to obey and observe?

 

[Fred]

Of course, a New Covenant between God and the House of Israel (Gentiles excluded.)

I think this Scripture is appropriate:

Gentiles are part of the New Covenant.

 

[Fred]

So, what are you saying? There is no longer any sabbath for the Hebrew/Jew to obey and observe?

Gone forever good-bye.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Gentiles are part of the New Covenant.

LOL. Really?
Show me in the Hebrew Scripture where this phantom covenant is.

 

[Fred]

the Hebrew Scripture

That is not the sum total of the word of God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That is not the sum total of the word of God.

It is the foundational base of salvation is of the LORD to God's Chosen people the Jews.
The New Covenant writings are only discussion, examination, and interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures where the New Covenant God made with the House of Israel is concerned.
There are no new covenants contained in its texts. Not any between God and Gentiles.
To believe there is means to grossly misunderstand the salvation of the Jews and salvation is of the LORD.
There is no 'salvation is of the Gentiles.' None. Nada, zip, zilch.
LOL.

 

[Fred]

It is the foundational base

So is the New Testament.

It's so great refuting your confusion right away because then I don't have to read the rest of your nonsense.

 

[jeremiah1five]

So is the New Testament.

It's so great refuting your confusion right away because then I don't have to read the rest of your nonsense.

It's foundational ONLY when understood considering the Hebrew Scripture.
The New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR other Jews and Jewish Christians and they are discussion and interpretation of the Hebrew Scripture in order for the House of Israel to make sense and understand the New Covenant era they found themselves in after advent of Israel's Messiah and soon thereafter, the advent of the Holy Spirit of Promise given to Israel.
It's the epitome of extravagant arrogance to think abd believe these writing was written to Gentiles. LOL.
The New Covenant writings contain the history, culture, religion, Temple practices, their covenants, their prophets, and their prophecies, of the Hebrew people and their relationship to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

You're going to sit in your heresy and tell me God has for six thousand years made covenants with Abram the Hebrew and his seed, the children of Jacob/Israel, have a hot/cold/hot/cold relationship with this ethnic people through the centuries, even the millenniums, even send His only begotten Son to die for this people as per covenant and prophecies, and His first words in this New Covenant era, a covenant made between God and the House of Israel is to Gentiles? LOL.

Now I know WHO will be gathered against Israel along with the unconverted Gentile nations as written by Zechariah in chapter 14 will truly be. You do know that when God sits on His throne in Jerusalem and after He cleanses Gentiles from out of the Promised Land that the Jews will occupy their land and Gentiles who survive Armageddon will live at the four corners of the earth are the ones Satan will deceive when let out of his prison when the thousand years expire, yes?
Even now right before your very eyes the truth is going forth that "salvation is of the Jews" really means what it says, that "salvation - and all its parts - is OF THE JEWS.

 

[Fred]

It's foundational ONLY when understood considering the Hebrew Scripture.

And the NC does not teach that Christians have to obey the 7th Day Sabbath command.
It has been abrogated (Hebrews 8:13).

 

[Arial]

So, what are you saying? There is no longer any sabbath for the Hebrew/Jew to obey and observe?

They can observe it if they desire to but it will neither add to or subtract from Salvation. And if they are not in Christ through faith it will not save. Romans 14:1-12







1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own mastera that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,


“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confessb to God.”
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

 

[Arial]

Why would Jesus teach that we should obey and teach the 10 Commandments if He did not intend Christians to do so? And if He DID intend Christians not to obey them, why did His closest followers (who knew far better than you or I what Jesus intended) obey them after His death?
Lk. 23:54-56

It just doesn't follow Scripture that we are to do away with the 10 Commandments. They are the foundation of the Christian Faith.

Again, Jesus created them, taught them, obeyed them and His followers (the first Christians) obeyed them dutifully after His death.

I don't know of any Christian that says we do not have to obey the ten commandments. And there are no Christians who keep them all the time and perfectly. But the fourth commandment has an application in the Mosaic Law, that it did not have before that Law and does not have after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Not to mention we were required to keep them all before they were even given on tablets of stone, as creatures created by the Most High God.

Jesus is our Sabbath rest. It has no law or laws attached to it. If we are in Christ we have entered into that rest. (Heb 3 and 4.)

 

[Arial]

Again, Jesus created them, taught them, obeyed them and His followers (the first Christians) obeyed them dutifully after His death.

You have nothing but supposition and failure to read scriptures that say otherwise, when you say the first Christians obeyed the Sabbath laws. If they had been the apostles in their letters would not have been dealing with Judaizers.

 

[Arial]

Since the New Covenant writings of Matthew to Revelation were written to Jews and Jewish Christians there would no need to remind them of the sabbath since they knew it was to be observed throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant command.

They weren't written to only Jews and Jewish Christians though and that is a fact. And though the gospels are about Jesus and His ministry to the Jewish people, they were not written for only Jewish people but for all people who would read them---including you a Gentile and all the rest of the Gentile believers. And if the letters were written to only Jews, they had to be reminded of a heck of a lot, given all the quotes from the OT, so from where do you get the idea that the only thing they didn't need to be reminded of was the Sabbath keeping?

The only time I can think of that the Sabbath was even discussed at all, which is more telling than you like to admit, is when it was trying to be imposed on Gentiles by Judaizers. And Paul told them not to judge another by their own behavior, and in regards to celebrations and feasts, that to say they were necessary for salvation was to declare Jesus insufficient.

 

[Arial]

When God sits on His throne in judgment, He will use the Law of Moses to judge all mankind.
Then, if you're going to live under His rule the Law of Moses you will be under command to obey it in the social order.

The Bible does not say that. Is it perhaps a private revelation? We will be judged by the Book of Life Rev 20:12,15

Have you read all the laws in the Mosaic Law lately. Are you keeping a single one---and I will even let that slide and focus on the Sabbath Laws, all of them----as they are commanded by God to be kept? In your Sabbath keeping, do you keep it in the way God said to keep it, or do you simplify and make it more convenient for yourself? This seems to be the question no one who believes we have to keep the Sabbath, or the festivals or the dietary laws, will answer.

 

[jeremiah1five]

And the NC does not teach that Christians have to obey the 7th Day Sabbath command.
It has been abrogated (Hebrews 8:13).

Disagree. It's not "Christians" because there are Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians. So, lumping them together confuses the subject. I make distinction just as Scripture makes distinction.

32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: 1 Cor. 10:31–32.

The Jews are Hebrews in covenant with God and not saved.
Gentiles are any uncircumcised, non-covenant, unsaved Roman, Greek, Scythian, etc.
Church of God are Jewish Christians.

First Corinthians was written about AD 54, merely four years after the Jerusalem Council that was led and officiated by Jewish Christians at Jerusalem. Christ began to fulfill His Promise to build His Church on the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost) and He did this by saving 3000 Jews. On that day natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Israel and from this the good news about Israel's Messiah went into Gentile lands with a great many visiting newly minted Jewish Christians returned to their homes and synagogues telling of their experiences of a Holy Spirit of Christ, of Jesus, and an outline of Peter's sermon. It is reasonable that upon these Roman roads they shared of their experiences in Jerusalem of that day and many more Jews became born again and filled with the Spirit of Promise. Acts 2:47 says that Christ added to His Church daily such as should be saved and if we are to take 3000 born again Jews as a median number, then by weeks end 21,000 Jews were born again as Christ added to His Church daily.

In Acts 6 it says a "great company of priests were obedient to the faith (born again)," and that implies the majority of the 70 members of the Sanhedrin. Most probably led by Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. At this time Saul was a barely 2 years into His new relationship with Messiah and he says he took a vacation for 17 years. If Christ ascended on AD 32 and Saul was at the council in AD 50, this would make Saul's conversion within two years of the Lord's ascension. Being a Jewish Messiah who was Promised by Moses to the Hebrew people of twelve tribes and is the fulfillment of covenant and prophecies, His whole appearing, and purpose was to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. It's their covenants. It's their prophecies. Why shouldn't He save the people He came to save, mainly Jews, as per covenant and prophecies. Matthew 1:21 says, "He shall save HIS PEOPLE from their sins" just as prophesied. By the time Acts 21 events occurred it says of Saul in particular, and Israel in general:

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.

This means that for the Jew that became saved they continued in the Law of Moses in a spiritual new way, one that is sanctioned by God because there is no evidence the Law of God has been "abrogated" as you erroneously believe. It's a Gentile gimmick. But then again Gentiles were never under the Law and yet in the Millennium the Law of God will be the order by which all behavior and lives turn and are lived. If the Law of God is "abrogated" as you erroneously believe, then God's people are Lawless and have no foundation to order their lives. It's all about leaning upon your own understanding in the vanity of your mind. Do you actually believe God is going to "abrogate" His Law because Gentiles teach this heresy for 1900 years? God's Law is eternal and since everything HAS NOT been fulfilled then God's Law is still the Law of the land.

And you really cannot speak for the Jews whether the Law has been "abrogated" because to them it's not and in reality, it is not. To say the Law of Moses is "abrogated" is to say the Holy Spirit is "abrogated" and He definitely is NOT "abrogated" despite what Gentiles say.

The Holy Spirit cannot deny Himself. He is the fulfillment of a Promise made to the children of Israel. He is that Law God promised to put in the inward parts of His New Covenant people.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mt 5:18.

All has not been fulfilled. There are still prophecies of His reign, His rule, His coming, prophecies about Israel, the Temple, the beast and false prophet, the mark, Armageddon, the Revelation. These things have not been fulfilled, so who's the one contradicting the very words of Christ?
Gentile Christians.
And another thing not yet fulfilled is the Great White Throne judgment and the final attack by Gentile Christians against Israel when the Millennium comes to an end and fire comes out of heaven and consumes ALL Gentile Christians.
Who's left standing?
Israel.
I don't know what the greater sin is, adding to God's Words or contradicting God's Words.
Because Gentile Christians do both.
Be careful. The books will be opened, and you wouldn't want your name mentioned in them because it will be from out of those books Gentile Christians will be judged.
But you have time still because that's another thing that hasn't been fulfilled.

 

[jeremiah1five]

They can observe it if they desire to but it will neither add to or subtract from Salvation. And if they are not in Christ through faith it will not save. Romans 14:1-12

According to the Lord's own words obedience to the Law is life eternal as is their inheritance:

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Lk 10:25–28.

The man was right and in being right his birthright grants him eternal life.

1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own mastera that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,


“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confessb to God.”
12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.