The Greatest Lie Of Them All

[SeventhDay]

The Greatest Lie Of Them All
The teaching that God saves some and not all is the greatest of all lies and is a denial of Jesus atonement.
It is an appalling deceitful lie and makes Jesus atonement a mockery!
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Now, the Savior of all men saves all men and how is it that God does that? How is it that we were saved and now believe in Christ for our salvation? What God has done for us will God do the same for all?
By not teaching that Jesus will save all one denies Jesus atonement and make one's faith in Jesus that saved one foolishness and one's belief in him is in vain!
The teaching that says God saves some and not others is a doctrine of demons and a complete denial of Jesus atonement!
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Such a teaching that teaches that God only saves some is a damnable heresy! You can be sure of that!
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Yes, the heretical teaching that Jesus saves some but not all is a heretical teaching and a denial of the Lord who bought them!
Thus, those who teaches that Jesus saves some but not all need to repent and teach the truth.
God bless you all with his truth. Amen!

 

[Josheb]

The Greatest Lie Of Them All
The teaching that God saves some and not all is the greatest of all lies...

Is this op intended to assert universalism?

 

[fastfredy0]

I vote for universalism though I bet differently.

Aside: the use of the term ALL in scripture causes a lot of issues. Oh well.

 

[Fred]

Live it up while we can then. All be well.
Nothing to worry about or fear.

On second thought...

 

[SeventhDay]

Is this op intended to assert universalism?

It is intended to teach that God reconciles all on to himself just as the scriptures teach!

 

[SeventhDay]

I vote for universalism though I bet differently.

Aside: the use of the term ALL in scripture causes a lot of issues. Oh well.

It is not a matter of voting or what you like but accepting the fact that God is reconciling all on to himself. Yes, we need to understand in what context "all" is used" but that is not a problem unless one uses it out of context!

 

[Josheb]

It is intended to teach that God reconciles all on to himself just as the scriptures teach!

Which is normally called universalism or apokatastasis and people espousing that position should come right out in a forthcoming manner and say so.

Is this op intended to assert universalism?

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

The teaching that God saves some and not all is the greatest of all lies and is a denial of Jesus’s atonement.

All right, let us take a look at the scriptures which you called upon for support. The first was 1 Timothy 2:3-6, which says,

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time (KJV).​

How does this passage support your claim? Unfortunately, since you did not make that clear, one must hazard a guess—and my guess would be that you believe your claim is supported by the part saying that God "will have all men to be saved."

The question that immediately comes to mind is, "What is meant by the term ‘all men’ here?" It could mean one of at least two things, either (1) all men without exception, or (2) all men without distinction. If you believe this passage supports your claim, then you must think it means the first one. But you're operating on a hidden assumption, an assumption because you don't argue for it from the text and hidden because you don't even acknowledge your assumption. Making a biblical argument requires more than just quoting a biblical text.

That being said, I think if you look closely at the first two verses—which were conspicuously not included—you will discover the answer hiding in plain sight. In other words, this passage itself reveals what is meant here. The apostle Paul urges that all prayers, from intercessions to thanksgiving, be made for all men (verse 1), even for kings and for all that are in authority (verse 2). I would argue that Paul was clear about what he meant, namely, all men without distinction. So, carrying this forward to the verses that follow it, when he says that God wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth he means not just the common man, laborers and farmers, but rather all men, from wretched slaves to powerful elites. None are precluded from the need of Christ's salvation.

Herein lies the difference between the two positions: One is a baseless assumption, the other is an exegetical inference—and, hilariously, the former is calling the latter heretical.

Now, the Savior of all men saves all men.

True. But what does it mean to save someone? Evidently, judging by this other passage you quoted (1 Timothy 4:9-11), it seems to suggest that God saves people in a temporal sense and an eternal sense. He is the savior of all men generally (saved for this life) but of believers especially (saved for eternal life). How is it that God saves all men generally for this life? By not subjecting us immediately to the fiery wrath of his judgment against sin. God must eventually demonstrate his just wrath against sin and reveal his sovereign power, but he continues to display tremendous restraint toward those vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (temporal salvation) in order to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory (eternal salvation). That is how he is the savior of all men but especially of believers.

If God is the saviour of all men in the eternal sense, then it no longer makes sense to say he is the savior specially of believers. On the other hand, the view I presented makes sense and is consistent with the scriptures.

---

I will wait until our discussion of these passages is settled before moving on to the others.

 

[Josheb]

The Greatest Lie Of Them All

The teaching that God saves some and not all is the greatest of all lies and is a denial of Jesus atonement. It is an appalling deceitful lie and makes Jesus atonement a mockery!

What is an appalling mockery is that there isn't a single example in the entire Bible where God has ever saved everyone but, instead, in EVERY single example of salvation or restoration God saves only some and the rest are killed. Every single verse quoted in the op occurs within that larger context and most of them were written to the saved about the saved and do not apply to the not saved, so not only is God and His word mocked, but grossly abused.

One of the biggest problems in the op is the use of the KJV where the KJV has not translated the Greek manuscripts well. 1 Timothy 2:4 does not say, "Who will have all men saved..." It says, "who all men desires to be saved..." The simple fact is there is a book of life and not everyone's name is written therein. The word is used 19 times in the NT and over a third of those occasions the KJV translates the word differently than "wills." It is not even consistent with itself.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Such a teaching that teaches that God only saves some is a damnable heresy! You can be sure of that!

It is those teaching universalism who are the false teachers. Of people who distort what Paul wrote (like this op does),

2 Peter 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Distorting Paul's words brings destruction, not eventual salvation.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Maybe you could show us how God saves death and reconciles death to Himself since the last enemy, death, is defeated, annulled, and destroyed, not saved.

God bless you all with his truth. Amen!

Calling everyone false teachers and then blessing them is corrupt. Don't feign nicety when accusing others. Remember: in your worldview all us God-mocking, false teachers are going to be reconciled to God .


Galatians 6:7-8
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

In every single precedent in the Bible a minority, not a majority, is saved. The rest are destroyed.

 

[SeventhDay]

What is an appalling mockery is that there isn't a single example in the entire Bible where God has ever saved everyone but, instead, in EVERY single example of salvation or restoration God saves only some and the rest are killed. Every single verse quoted in the op occurs within that larger context and most of them were written to the saved about the saved and do not apply to the not saved, so not only is God and His word mocked, but grossly abused.

One of the biggest problems in the op is the use of the KJV where the KJV has not translated the Greek manuscripts well. 1 Timothy 2:4 does not say, "Who will have all men saved..." It says, "who all men desires to be saved..." The simple fact is there is a book of life and not everyone's name is written therein. The word is used 19 times in the NT and over a third of those occasions the KJV translates the word differently than "wills." It is not even consistent with itself.

It is those teaching universalism who are the false teachers. Of people who distort what Paul wrote (like this op does),

2 Peter 3:16
His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Distorting Paul's words brings destruction, not eventual salvation.

Maybe you could show us how God saves death and reconciles death to Himself since the last enemy, death, is defeated, annulled, and destroyed, not saved.

Calling everyone false teachers and then blessing them is corrupt. Don't feign nicety when accusing others. Remember: in your worldview all us God-mocking, false teachers are going to be reconciled to God .


Galatians 6:7-8
7Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a person sows, this he will also reap. 8For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

In every single precedent in the Bible a minority, not a majority, is saved. The rest are destroyed.

It makes no difference whether God desires or God wills that all be saved because God fulfills his desires and changes hearts so one can receive and believe the good news. You give man credit instead of God and misconstrue the truth. Repent!

"Maybe you could show us how God saves death and reconciles death to Himself since the last enemy, death, is defeated, annulled, and destroyed, not saved."

God is not saving death! Where do you get that from?

God is not reconciling death to himself! Where do you get that from/

Death is vanquished so what does that mean? Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire. That is a good thing!

The church (house of God) is judged first and all go trough God's fire because all are judged!

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Paul is speaking to the church here yet God's judgement concerns both the heavens and the earth!

No one escapes God's judgement and what is God's judgement for? Why is it that we have the nations who are outside the city New Jerusalem coming into the city and there is a promise that all who overcome can enter the city. Understand that God is saving all yet all go through judgement!

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Judgement is remedial and corrective and we can be thankful that God is our judge!

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

God is creating humanity in God's image through Christ and Jesus atonement is for the whole world is a success and that ought to be taught and the whole worlds given hope.

Arminian and Calvinist doctrine deny Jesus atonement for all therefore they deny the Savior that bought them!

It is those who do not teach Jesus atonement properly who have corrupted the word of God and that applies to you as well, Josheb!

Repent!

 

[Arial]

It is intended to teach that God reconciles all on to himself just as the scriptures teach!

So universalism? Why not give a straightforward and honest answer of yes or no? And doesn't the Bible also tell us that there are people who are not saved and go to hell? What about that?

 

[Fred]

Why not give a straightforward and honest answer of yes or no?

For we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves. (Isaiah 28:15, KJV)

 

[Arial]

For we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves. (Isaiah 28:15, KJV)

Absolutely! As though the eyes of God's people cannot see through the covering.

 

[SeventhDay]

So universalism? Why not give a straightforward and honest answer of yes or no? And doesn't the Bible also tell us that there are people who are not saved and go to hell? What about that?

It is Hades that goes into the lake of fire and very few on CARM Forum understand what that means. They prefer to believe in a place where there are engulfing flams torturing unbelievers yet God is making believers and it is through spiritual fire. Hades spiritually means separation from God or the unseen or imperceptible. God want to reconcile humanity to God by making humanity new spiritual creations and is putting the old humanity away!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we have thus concluded that if one died for all, then all died.

2Co 5:15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to Him Who died for them and was raised again.

2Co 5:16 So then, from this time forward we know no man according to the flesh; but even if we have known Christ in the flesh, yet now we no longer know Him accordingly.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are from God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 Which is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and He has entrusted to us this message of reconciliation.

 

[Arial]

It is Hades that goes into the lake of fire and very few on CARM Forum understand what that means. They prefer to believe in a place where there are engulfing flams torturing unbelievers yet God is making believers and it is through spiritual fire. Hades spiritually means separation from God or the unseen or imperceptible. God want to reconcile humanity to God by making humanity new spiritual creations and is putting the old humanity away!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we have thus concluded that if one died for all, then all died.

2Co 5:15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to Him Who died for them and was raised again.

2Co 5:16 So then, from this time forward we know no man according to the flesh; but even if we have known Christ in the flesh, yet now we no longer know Him accordingly.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are from God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 Which is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and He has entrusted to us this message of reconciliation.

Are you a universalist?

 

[Eleanor]

It is not a matter of voting or what you like but accepting the fact that God is reconciling all on to himself. Yes, we need to understand in what context "all" is used" but that is not a problem unless one uses it out of context!

Reconcile is either "to" or "with." It is not "on."

 

[SeventhDay]

Reconcile is either "to" or "with." It is not "on."

Okay.

 

[donadams]

I think and I hope he means Christ redeemed all men and makes the salvation of all men possible!

But we must accept Christ by faith!

Thanks

 

[Josheb]

It is Hades that goes into the lake of fire....

Incorrect. Death and Hades (along with the population of Hades) are tossed into the fiery lake.

....and very few on CARM Forum understand what that means..

Please stop judging others' knowledge. If you continue to do so I will have the mods edit your posts, and if it continues after they do so further sanctions will follow. You have no idea what others know and understand unless they post it. Read the Forum's Rules and keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.

God want to reconcile humanity to God by making humanity new spiritual creations and is putting the old humanity away!

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we have thus concluded that if one died for all, then all died.

2Co 5:15 And He died for all so that those who live should no longer live to themselves, but to Him Who died for them and was raised again.

2Co 5:16 So then, from this time forward we know no man according to the flesh; but even if we have known Christ in the flesh, yet now we no longer know Him accordingly.

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

2Co 5:18 And all things are from God, Who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

2Co 5:19 Which is, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and He has entrusted to us this message of reconciliation.

Hades and death are not the world.

 

[SeventhDay]

Incorrect. Death and Hades (along with the population of Hades) are tossed into the fiery lake.

Please stop judging others' knowledge. If you continue to do so I will have the mods edit your posts, and if it continues after they do so further sanctions will follow. You have no idea what others know and understand unless they post it. Read the Forum's Rules and keep the posts about the posts, not the posters.

Hades and death are not the world.

Are you misunderstanding me?

Hades and death are not the world but since God is destroying both shows that God is saving the world and if you examine your heart you will take this seriously:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the Firstfruit; then, those who are Christ's at His coming.
1Co 15:24 Afterwards the end comes, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to Him Who is God and Father, when He shall have put an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For it is ordained that He reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when it is said that all things have been put in subjection, it is clearly evident that it does not include Him Who put all things in subjection under Him.
1Co 15:28 But when He has put all things in subjection to Him, then shall the Son Himself also be subject to Him Who put all things in subjection to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God bless you!