The Great Apostasy in the Church.

[Hobie]

Apostasy is defined as a total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause.” [1. Definition of Apostasy..] In Christian circles, it carries an even stronger connotation of not being a true believer. So what apostasy means is to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth and falling away from the truth we are given in Gods Word. We have been warned in prophecy that this would happen in the church, and it did happen.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If there is indeed an apostasy occurring in the church, how would we know it unless we first examined the Bible closely and then compared it. But what if the church took away and forbid Gods Word as happened. So how was this able to get in and bring such great apostasy into what Christ and the Apostles brought up with such care. It was through subtle and secret changes, done with evil discipline to hide the apostasy that they brought in slowly, so few would notice.

I was doing a study on the Greeks and how they picked up and passed on to the Romans the ancient Babylonian sun gods and system of worship, when I came across a interesting sermon that really hit the issue of the apostasy in the church dead center.

'...Pope is a shortened title for Pontifex Maximus. In Greek it means father. The Pontifex Maximus (meaning king of sacrifices or servant to the triads, as well as the "greatest bridge-maker between the gods and men") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. It's a pagan title that was incorporated from the Etruscan-Latin polytheistic culture (700 BC) who lived before the Romans. These early people (just like the Romans) had built great temples to the gods and goddess of the day. They also had a pagan triad. Eventually the Etruscans were conquered by Rome.

The title Pontifex Maximus (Pope) is mentioned numerous times by the early Catholic Church fathers (especially by Tertullian), but it was not applied to a Catholic bishop until much later on. The early Catholics said that the Pontifex Maximus was the "King of Heathendom," the evil high priest of the pagan mystery religion of Rome. This post was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office. It's last use with reference to the emperors is in inscriptions of Gratian (reigned 375-383). He was then urged by the Catholic bishops to renounce the cultic Roman title, and instead grant it to their exalted leading bishop over Rome.

Pontifex Maximus is a name that's being used by the Roman Catholic Church clergy today. Though it may be abbreviated into Pope or Papa, yet it's clearly a title incorporated directly from paganism. Interesting to note that the all the pagan pontiffs or popes held that office for life. Exactly like the Catholics Popes. And their cult members met and elected a successor, who after his election became the next Pope or Pontifex Maximus (Dionys. II.22, 73). Just like the election held by the Catholic Church cardinals to choose a new Pope. The Pontifex Maximus was the guardian of the Vestal virgins. The Roman Catholic Church has simply named them Nuns instead. Many historians agree that the idea for the powers of the pope with the College of Cardinals came from the Pagan College of Pontiffs with its Sovereign Pontiff which had no doubt been in Rome from the earliest times, and must have been framed on the order of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon. It's also obvious to any historian that while the Catholics have called themselves Christians, they more closely resemble the ancient pagans both in customs and names. Pope Gregory I (601 AD) said in so many words literally, "We must compromise with the pagans in order to further Christianity."...'
http://www.upublish.info/Article/The-Pope--Pontifex-Maximus-/693298

By the time of Emperor Constantine, the Christian religion received imperial sanction and the bishop of Rome became more than just another bishop, and brought in a system of worship from another origin than Christianity, in a apostasy that prophecy foretold.

 

[Hobie]

So how could it happen, why did the faithful not the apostasy, what subterfuge did they use to bring in this apostasy. Well one has to search and see what was done which even they who brought the evil, boast and history shows the various ways they did it.

If you look into church history you will find what is called the Disciplina Arcani or Discipline of the Secret or Discipline of the Arcane, which was a restriction imposing silence upon Christians with respect to their rites and doctrines. It was a theological term used to describe the 'tradition' or custom which came in and prevailed in the church, whereby knowledge of the more 'intimate mysteries' of the Christian religion was carefully kept from non-Christians and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the faith. The true origin of these 'mysteries' came from the oral teachings from Greek and Hellenistic sources which formed the basis of this secret oral tradition, which in the 4th century came to be called the disciplina arcani. It appears that it contained liturgical details and certain other ancient customs which remain a part of Christianity, for example, the doctrine of Transubstantiation is thought to have been a part of this. So lets look below the surface and see what this "Discipline" actually is from several sources.

Disciplina Arcani: A Latin phrase, meaning discipline of the secret and referring to a practice of the early Church, especially during the Roman persecutions, to: (1) conceal Christian truths from those who, it was feared, would misinterpret, ridicule and profane the teachings, and persecute Christians for believing them; (2) instruct catechumens in a gradual manner, withholding the teaching of certain doctrines until the catechumens proved themselves of good faith and sufficient understanding.

http://www.osv.com/OSV4MeNav/CatholicAl ... fault.aspx, Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Almanac: Glossary D-M, 'Disciplina Arcani':

This term signifies in general that which is unknowable, or valuable knowledge that is kept secret. In pagan antiquity the word mystery was used to designate certain esoteric doctrines, such as Pythagoreanism, or certain ceremonies that were performed in private or whose meaning was known only to the initiated, e.g., the Eleusinian rites, Phallic (penis) worship. In the language of the early Christians the mysteries were those religious teachings that were carefully guarded from the knowledge of the profane (see DISCIPLINE OF THE SECRET).

..theological term used to express the custom which prevailed in the earliest ages of the Church, by which the knowledge of the more intimate mysteries of the Christian religion was carefully kept from the heathen and even from those who were undergoing instruction in the Faith. The custom itself is beyond dispute.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Discipline of the Secret (Catholic Encyclopedia), Discipline of the Secret (Latin Disciplina Arcani ):

There are many other "unwritten mysteries of the Church," says St. Basilc. 66 and 67). They are not mentioned in the Scripture. But they are of great authority and significance. They are indispensable for the preservation of right faith. They are effective means of witness and communication. According to St. Basil, they come from a "silent" and "private" tradition: [From the silent and mystical tradition, from the unpublic and ineffable teaching]. This "silent" and "mystical" tradition, "which has not been made public," is not an esoteric doctrine, reserved for some particular elite. The "elite" was the Church. In fact, "tradition" to which St. Basil appeals, is the liturgical practice of the Church. St. Basil is referring here to what is now denoted as disciplina arcani [The discipline of secrecy].

[Cf. Hermann Dörries, De Spiritu Sancto, Der Beitrag des Basilius zum Abschluss des trinitarischen Dogmas (Göttingen, 1956); J. A. Jungmann, S.J., Die Stellung Christi im liturgischen Gebet, 2. Auflage (Münster i/W, 1962), ss. 155 ff., 163 ff.; Dom David Amand, Lascese monastique de Saint Basile, Editions de Maredsous (1949), pp. 75-85. The footnotes in the critical editions of the treatise De Spiritu S. by C. F. H. Johnson (Oxford, 1892) and by Benoit Pruche, O.P. (in the Sources Chrètiennes, Paris, 1945) are highly instructive and helpful. On disciplina arcani see O. Perler, s.v. Arkandisciplin, in Reallexikon für Antike and Christentum, Bd. I (Stuttgart, 1950), ss. 671-676,. Joachim Jeremias, Die Abendmahlsworte Jesu (Göttingen, 1949), ss. 59 ff., 78 ff., contended that disciplina arcani could be detected already in the formation of the text of the Gospels, and actually existed also in Judaism; cf. the sharp criticism of this thesis by R. P. C. Hanson, Tradition in the Early Church (London, 1962), pp. 27 ss].

So is this a Christian belief or direction from the Apostles that should be in the church, it appears not. Does it have any scriptural support or sanction, it appears to fail on that point. So why did it come into the church. To bring in apostasy or the falling away, and pagan 'traditions' that only was known to a select group of 'initiates', and kept from the faithful who would have seen the evil in it and stopped the apostasy from coming into the church.

 

[Hobie]

If this is not a Christian belief and apostasy being spread, where does it come from, what are its roots. Well lets focus on the origin of these 'Mysteries' and how in the world it got picked up by 'leaders' of the church who should have known what it was. It seems that many corruptions from Greek mythology and Hellenistic philosophy and other non Christian sources such as Gnosticism came into the early church and this included the ancient 'Mysteries'. So lets see what these were..

...The cults of the mystery religions were influenced uniformly by the ideas of the Greek philosophers. A few of them existed before the turn of the Era, but several more appeared at about the turn of the Era. They reached their height of popularity during the times of early Christianity. Christianity was born during a period of proliferation. Christianity itself in the beginning consisted of many cults that existed independently and had very diverse doctrines. Because of such diversity, it is debatable whether Gnosticism was just another cult of Christianity or whether it was a separate religion.

The following features were common to all mystery religions. Admission to the community was by a rite of initiation, a solemn consecration. The initiation was held in secret, which explains why they were called "mysteries."...
Esoteric Christianity: The Greek Mystery Religions and Their Impact on Christianity

Now the problem was that many Christians leaders were influenced or had picked up the pagan 'Mysteries' and mixed it with Christianity. Clement of Alexandria stated that 'what was taught in the Mysteries concerned the universe, and was the completion and perfection of all instruction; wherein things were seen as they were, and nature and her works were made known.'

Clement of Alexandria writings show that he was completely immersed in the pagan 'Myesteries' and are full of terminology taken directly from the language of the Pagan Mysteries. He writes of the Christian revelation as 'the holy Mysteries.' the ';divine secrets',... Clement further states 'I am become holy while I am being initiated.' Clement tells us that in early Christianity there were likewise Lesser Mysteries for beginners on the spiritual path and Greater Mysteries which were a secret higher knowledge, which led to full 'initiation.' The 'secret traditions of true Gnosis,' he explains, had been transmitted 'to a small number, by a succession of masters, and not in writing.'

So then we find the following connection...

"Alexandria was, in addition, one of the chief seats of that peculiar mixed pagan and Christian speculation known as Gnosticism. Basilides and Valentinus taught there. It is no matter of surprise, therefore, to find some of the Christians affected in turn by the scientific spirit. At an uncertain date, in the latter half of the second century, "a school of oral instruction" was founded. "
clement of alexandria

Note, it mixed pagan and Christian speculation, so a combining of paganism into Christianity

So lets look closer at the 'pagan speculation' and see what we find.

'The idea of self-knowledge is central to the purpose of the ancient Mysteries. The Greek Temple of Apollo at Delphi had inscribed 'Gnothi Seauton' or ';Know thy Self.' The Gnosis[8] or knowledge which initiates of the Mysteries sought and Masters taught was the knowledge of self. The Gnostic Book of Thomas stated:

'Whoever has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved Gnosis about the depth of all things.'

"This idea is extremely ancient and we may find interesting connections between our own ritual and that of the ancient Pagan[9] Mysteries of Greece, Egypt, and Persia.

The ancient Mysteries existed for the purpose of satisfying the desire of those who wished to know the nature of themselves and of their creator, their purpose in life, and what might come after life. Plato said that the object of the Mysteries was to re-establish the soul in its primitive purity, and to that state which it had lost..."

"The Mysteries demanded complete adherence to silence among its adherents."

'This demand was taken seriously in the Eleusinian Mysteries as failure to keep vows resulted in death. For this reason very little direct information exists concerning details of the Mysteries- the ritual, passwords, symbols and text."

"..More than five centuries before the arrival of Christianity, at Eleusis (a small town outside Athens) the people established the Eleusinian mysteries.There they reenacted the myth of Demeter's search and her reunion with her daughter Persephone. Every year two Eleusinian ceremonies were held: the Greater mysteries, in honor of Demeter and Kori, and the Lesser mysteries, in honor of Kori alone.

The Lesser mysteries were a preparation for the Greater ones. They were performed at Agrae on the river Ilissus (outside Athens) in the month of Anthesterion (February-March). Because of the oaths for secrecy we have sparse testimony of what exactly took place in the initiation ceremony. Something was recited, something was revealed, and acts were performed. Also, the initiates took an oath of secrecy before preparing for the Greater mysteries. The penalty for revealing the mysteries to outsiders was death. The initiates of the Lesser mysteries waited at least one year until they could participate in the Greater mysteries, which were held at Eleusis in the month of Boedromion (September-October). The Greater mysteries included baptism in the sea, three days of fasting, and the completion of the mysterious central rite. These acts completed the initiation, and the initiate was promised rewards in the life after death..."

Mithraism is an example of a "mystery religion" that flourished in the near east at that time. Mithraism took on the form of a mystery religion, with elaborate rights and ceremonies. It came into the ancient Roman world about 75 B.C. David Ulansey explains it is called such because " ..like the other ancient 'mystery religions,' such as the Eleusinian mysteries and the mysteries of Isis, the Mithraic cult maintained strict secrecy about its teachings and practices, revealing them only to initiates.

Did Christianity Steal From Mithraism? - Come Reason Ministries

And we see the results of the mixing of pagan Gnosticism with Christianity that Clement brought into the church in his student, Origen, in this excerpt from the Pristine Faith Restoration Society site, written by Tim Warner:

"Origen's Solution - Semi-Gnosticism:
The orthodox opinion about the creation and its destiny was not all that appealing to the educated Greeks. The idea that the material creation was to be redeemed, and the bodies of believers were destined for resurrection in a material form, was seen as silly to the intellectuals steeped in Greek philosophy. Origen, a third century Alexandrian writer, attempted to merge Christian orthodoxy with the same dualistic Greek philosophies that drove Gnostic thinking. Origen was skilled in Greek philosophy and Christianity. He attempted to make Christianity acceptable to students of Greek philosophy. In doing so, he went far beyond what the Apostles and prophets taught. He used an allegorical interpretation of the Old Testament to inject the philosophy of Plato into the Scriptures. Origen's theology had a familiar ring for Gentile Christians raised in the Greek culture steeped in philosophy, and seemed to harmonize the Bible with the familiar Greek poets. But, Origen's allegorical methodology subtly undermined the fabric of orthodoxy. By his skill in writing, his command of Greek philosophy, and his apparent zeal in winning over the intellectuals, Origen's influence began to sway Christian thinking away from Chiliasm.

While Origen acknowledged one God in both Testaments, he accepted the "cosmic destiny" ideas of Gnosticism, and opposed the eschatological physical Kingdom of Christ held by the orthodox writers before him. His world view was mostly vertical, like the Gnostics and Greek philosophers. Origen was a teacher, and head of the Alexandrian school. His theology was based on a teacher's mindset. Origen taught that the whole creation was a classroom for the education of mankind. God's interaction with man within the creation was a maturing process to make him fit for inhabiting his cosmic destiny. Origen believed souls existed prior to birth, but were sent to earth for training in the physical realm so they could excel in their "cosmic" roles after this training was ended. He denied the resurrection of the body for the saved. And he taught that in the end, everyone would be saved and achieve their cosmic destiny, including Satan himself!

Origen is considered the father of allegorical interpretation of Scripture at the expense of the literal meaning. Thanks to Origen, the allegorical interpretive methods, formerly used almost exclusively by Gnostics, became acceptable. It was Origen and his Alexandrian school that turned many of the churches away from the Pristine Faith to a hybrid orthodox - Hellenistic Faith. While Gnosticism itself, with its absurd speculations, was an external problem for the churches founded by the Apostles, Origen brought some of the subtle thinking and assumptions of Gnosticism into mainstream Christianity."

So not only Rome but in Alexandria we see apostasy coming in, with a pagan system of worship and pagan philosophy being spread against true Christianity.

 

[Hobie]

So what connection does this system brought into the church at Rome of pagan worship have in Christianity today, well lets look...

"..There are four sets of "Mysteries of the Rosary" (Joyful, Luminous, Sorrowful, and Glorious). These four "Mysteries of the Rosary" therefore contain, a total of twenty mysteries. The Joyful, Luminous, Sorrowful, and Glorious Mysteries are then said on specific days of the week (see each set of mysteries below). During private recitation of the Rosary, each decade requires devout meditation on a specific mystery. Public recitation of the Rosary (two or more people), requires a leader to announce each of the mysteries before the decade, and start each prayer (see "The Family Rosary" below)."

How to Pray the Rosary

"The rosary beads provide a physical method of keeping count of the number of Hail Marys said as the mysteries are contemplated.[43] The fingers are moved along the beads as the prayers are recited. By not having to keep track of the count mentally, the mind is more able to meditate on the mysteries. A five decade rosary contains five groups of ten beads (a decade), with additional large beads before each decade.[47] The Hail Mary is said on the ten beads within a decade, while the Our Father is said on the large bead before each decade. A new mystery is meditated upon at each of the large beads. Some rosaries, particularly those used by religious orders, contain 15 decades, corresponding to the traditional 15 mysteries of the rosary. Both five and 15 decade rosaries are attached to a shorter strand, which starts with a crucifix followed by one large, three small, and one large beads before connecting to the rest of the rosary"

"Five methods of praying the rosary are presented within the works of Saint Louis de Montfort, a French Roman Catholic priest and writer of the early 18th century. Montfort was an early proponent of Mariology, and much of his work is devoted to the subjects of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the rosary. While the rosary contains a fixed set of prayers recited with the use of beads, Montfort proposed a number of methods to pray the rosary with more thorough devotion. Two of the methods are described in his book The Secret of the Rosary, in the fiftieth rose (chapter):

"In order to facilitate the exercise of the holy Rosary, here are several methods to recite it holily, with the meditation of the joyful, sorrowful and glorious mysteries of Jesus and Mary............."

And it goes on and on....

The Mysteries of the Rosary - Prayers - Catholic Online

And its not just beads that are being used, here is from the Vatican Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated host with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."

Source: Catechism of the Catholic Church, published by Ligouri Publications, English translation © 1994 by the United States Catholic Conference, Inc.--Libreria Editrice Vaticana, bearing the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, page 347.

We also find that transubstantiation was first practiced by ancient religions which had nothing to do with Christianity. The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstantiation as practiced by the priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primitive religion." The Story Of Civilization, p. 741. The syncretism and mysticism of the Middle East were great factors in influencing the West, particularly Italy. Roman Society From Nero To Marcus Aurelius, Dill. In Egypt priests would consecrate mest cakes which were supposed to be come the flesh of Osiris. Encyclopedia Of Religions, Vol. 2, p. 76. The idea of transubstantiation was also characteristic of the religion of Mithra. The Mysteries are referenced or eluded to in respect to its various branches throughout ancient history and all of the Mysteries had a single root which appears to have been the Mysteries of Isis in Egypt. At a certain level ( or degree) the initiate was told that he would be part of a brotherhood spanning the entire world, which included the Greek Mysteries, Oriental Mysteries, the Jewish Mysteries (Kaballah) and presumably all other Mysteries so this spanned the known world, so its not picked up from any scripture or Biblical truth, it has its own origin.

So as the Bishop of Rome gained more converts his area and influence grew, and people naturally looked to Rome as they had during the Empire as the center of authority. It used another tool, the pagan festival which was 'christianized' as Easter, to bring more pagans into the church, but instead of having them shed their pagan ways and ceremonies, it allow them into the church. if you look at history, Easter which was an ancient pagan festival and the pagan solstice celebrations were brought in and given a Christian veneer so pagans could join and continue as they had during the Empire.

 

[Hobie]

So what was brought into the church at Rome, lets look closer at these 'mysteries', and how it was spread...

"Mystery religions, sacred mysteries or simply mysteries, were religious cults of the Greco-Roman world for which participation was reserved to initiates (mystai).[1] The main characterization of this religion is the secrecy associated with the particulars of the initiation and the cult practice, which may not be revealed to outsiders. The most famous mysteries of Greco-Roman antiquity were the Eleusinian Mysteries, which were of considerable antiquity and predated the Greek Dark Ages. The popularity of mystery cults flourished on Late Antiquity; Julian the Apostate in the mid 4th century is known to have been initiated into three distinct mystery cults—most notably the Mithraic Mysteries."

So the Mithraic Mysterys, that was picked up in the Roman Empire and blossomed. As Alexander the Great made conquests, mystery religions came with the territory. The same is true for the Roman Empire. The sun gods and goddesses including Mithra, Phrygian Cybele and the Egyptian Isis, to mention a few, were brought into the empires as annexations were made. And, of course, along with mystery religion came astrology, whose central figure is the sun. Mithraism was popular in the Roman Empire with many Emperors following, not just the populace. It had seven sacraments, the same as the Catholic Church, baptism, and communion with bread and water. The Eucharist hosts were signed with a cross, an ancient phallic symbol which originated in Egypt, and the Egyptian cross (the ankh) still shows the original form which included the female symbol

Rome gained dominance over the Grecian Empire. At the death of Caesar Augustus, the time of Christ, the Roman empire stretched from Spain to the Caspian Sea, including Egypt, the Sinai peninsula, and Israel. Christianity was born and grew up in this setting.

The most significant aspect of the Greco-Roman civilization connection was that of religion. The Greeks and Romans worshipped numerous gods, the Romans picked up the mystery religions of the Greeks and renamed their gods. Religious ceremonies, rites and festivals were very important and many were celebrated. Notable festivals include the Greek festival of Zeus, the birthday of the Roman sun god, and the celebrations in honor of the fertility goddess at the spring equinox. The Romans also picked up and believed in the pagan god named Mithra (or Mithras). He was known, in various forms, in India, Persia, Greece, and throughout the Roman Empire. For the Greeks and Romans in the first century, Mithras was the chief figure in a mystery religion called Mithraism that held prominence in the Roman Empire. remnant of Mithraism is most evident in the Christian Eucharist, which involves the eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood of a deity(Christ). Since the drinking of blood has always been an abomination in Judaism it was not the origin of this rite, it is much more logical to attribute this ritual to Mithraism, which had a much similar ritual. It is clear that Christianity adopted aspects of Mithraism, the setting of the birthday of Christ on December 25th, which was Mithra birthday, and the shifting of the day of worship to the day of the Sun. The celebration of December 25, a tradition that began in the 4th century so it was not from the Apostles, however December 25 was the birthday of the more popular Roman god known as the "Unconquered Sun" with whom Constantine identified himself, who was closely associated with Mithras. Mithras is always described as "sol invictus" (the unconquered sun) in inscriptions.

So we see how this mystery religion came in under Constantine who was the Roman Emperor, and a certainly a supporter of the mystery religion but presented himself as a Christian to gain their support. Here is a good explanation...

During the 1st century CE, a cult of Mithra, made much progress in Rome, after enduring persecution, when some Emperors adopted the religion... Mithra became very popular among the Roman legionaries and later even among the Emperors. The worship of Mithra was first recognized by Emperor Aurelian and he instituted the cult of "Sol Invictus" or the Invincible Sun. Emperor Diocletian also a worshipper of Mithra, the Sun God, burned much of the Christian scriptures in 307 CE

This enabled Emperor Constantine to merge the cult of Mithra with that of Christianity that was developing much. He declared himself a Christian but at the same time maintained his ties to the Mithra cult. He retained the title "Pontifus Maximus" the high priest. On his coins were inscribed: "Sol Invicto comiti" which means, commited to the invincible sun. This new blend of the two faiths, he officially proclaimed as Christianity. Christianity spread all over the Roman Empire and Eastern Europe by massive persecution and brought an end to a variety of religions that flourished there. [...]

Mithraism and Early Christianity

 

[ChristB4us]

Apostasy is defined as a total desertion of or departure from one’s religion, principles, party, cause.” [1. Definition of Apostasy..] In Christian circles, it carries an even stronger connotation of not being a true believer.

Judging another or even yourself as not a true believer because someone or you went astray is never a judgment Paul would have us hand out.

You had referenced the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians but had cited 2 Thessalonians 2:4 rather than 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now I submit this reference to you that Paul was testifying to that work of iniquity being at work even in his day.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul describes it as happening in his day starting in verse 9 after referencing that son of perdition in verse 8.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then Paul reminded the believers of the tradition taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel in exposing what that lie as if they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign again and again and again after salvation.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul went on to address those that fell away from the faith as unreasonable and wicked men that have not faith that no longer walked after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as most of those movement of the "spirit" are in confusion which God is not the author of.

Below is the commandment from the Lord to withdraw from said wayward believers, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still, because they are still His, even if they get left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture for being workers of iniquity.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Contenders would say that because of 2 Thessalonians 212 that these wayward "believers" were being damned, thus they were never saved, but there is a damnation on saved believers when they get excommunicated from the Marriage Supper and that is by becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House when left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event.
More about the two kinds of inheritance in His House for what discipleship & running that race is all about for below.

So what apostasy means is to fall away from the truth. Therefore, an apostate is someone who has once believed and then rejected the truth of God. Apostasy is a rebellion against God because it is a rebellion against truth and falling away from the truth we are given in Gods Word. We have been warned in prophecy that this would happen in the church, and it did happen.

You can fall away from the faith and not believe in Him any more, but you are still saved, because He still abides in former believers for He cannot deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So a former believer verbally denying Him is not the only way He will deny them because saved believers can be engaged in works of iniquity that denies Him for why He would deny them in that fateful day when God judges His House at the rapture event.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Reprobate means disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in heaven for being in unrepentant iniquity still.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So those who fell away from the faith or are engaging in dead works that deny Him are still saved, but at risk of being left behind unless they look to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd & Friend to help them lay aside every weight & sin to be that vessel unto honor.

 

[prism]

1 John 2:19 NKJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There is a difference between being a professor (of Christ) and a possessor (of Christ).

 

[ChristB4us]

1 John 2:19 NKJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There is a difference between being a professor (of Christ) and a possessor (of Christ).

Thanks to Him, I can apply 1 John 2:19 as testifying to them going out from us into apostasy as not being of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

There are 2 kinds of eternal inheritance in the kingdom of Heaven; the vessels unto honor and the vessels unto dishonor. Even former believers are possessed of Christ, but if they do not depart from iniquity with His help to see the truth, they run the risk of being left behind.

So we are to seek the good of even those that have gone astray, be it a former believer or a Christian engaged in unrepentant sinful lifestyle or religious Christian engaged in religious works that deny Him in one form or another, be it by supernatural apostasy that denies Him or dead religious works that denies Him. As the Lord leads and provides the opportunity, we should be open to correcting others that are astray so that they too may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be that vessel unto honor in His House..

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So yes, at the rapture event. it will be obvious who is not with the firstfruits to be taken, but there are other sheep that He has and He MUST bring them for He shall lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

What other sheep that was not of the fold that followed His voice? The fold that went astray, following the stranger's voice, hence tongues for private use gained by that apostate movement of the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues..

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

So that is how 1 John 2:19 should be applied so as to not call any brother, not a brother or not a believer or not saved, but has been led astray.

 

[prism]

Thanks to Him, I can apply 1 John 2:19 as testifying to them going out from us into apostasy as not being of the firstfruits of the resurrection.

There are 2 kinds of eternal inheritance in the kingdom of Heaven; the vessels unto honor and the vessels unto dishonor. Even former believers are possessed of Christ, but if they do not depart from iniquity with His help to see the truth, they run the risk of being left behind.

So we are to seek the good of even those that have gone astray, be it a former believer or a Christian engaged in unrepentant sinful lifestyle or religious Christian engaged in religious works that deny Him in one form or another, be it by supernatural apostasy that denies Him or dead religious works that denies Him. As the Lord leads and provides the opportunity, we should be open to correcting others that are astray so that they too may obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation and that is to be that vessel unto honor in His House..

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So yes, at the rapture event. it will be obvious who is not with the firstfruits to be taken, but there are other sheep that He has and He MUST bring them for He shall lose nothing of all the Father has given Him.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

What other sheep that was not of the fold that followed His voice? The fold that went astray, following the stranger's voice, hence tongues for private use gained by that apostate movement of the baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues..

John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

So that is how 1 John 2:19 should be applied so as to not call any brother, not a brother or not a believer or not saved, but has been led astray.

Thank you for your opinion.

 

[Hobie]

1 John 2:19 NKJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

There is a difference between being a professor (of Christ) and a possessor (of Christ).

Very true, it was the old Babylonian system through the Greek paganism picked up by the Romans, so it never was the true church that Christ set up. But, it was so subtle that many Christians didnt see the implications till it had crept in.

 

[Hobie]

Judging another or even yourself as not a true believer because someone or you went astray is never a judgment Paul would have us hand out.

You had referenced the falling away from the faith in 2 Thessalonians but had cited 2 Thessalonians 2:4 rather than 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now I submit this reference to you that Paul was testifying to that work of iniquity being at work even in his day.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Paul describes it as happening in his day starting in verse 9 after referencing that son of perdition in verse 8.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then Paul reminded the believers of the tradition taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel in exposing what that lie as if they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign again and again and again after salvation.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Paul went on to address those that fell away from the faith as unreasonable and wicked men that have not faith that no longer walked after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as most of those movement of the "spirit" are in confusion which God is not the author of.

Below is the commandment from the Lord to withdraw from said wayward believers, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers still, because they are still His, even if they get left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture for being workers of iniquity.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Contenders would say that because of 2 Thessalonians 212 that these wayward "believers" were being damned, thus they were never saved, but there is a damnation on saved believers when they get excommunicated from the Marriage Supper and that is by becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House when left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event.
More about the two kinds of inheritance in His House for what discipleship & running that race is all about for below.


You can fall away from the faith and not believe in Him any more, but you are still saved, because He still abides in former believers for He cannot deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
So a former believer verbally denying Him is not the only way He will deny them because saved believers can be engaged in works of iniquity that denies Him for why He would deny them in that fateful day when God judges His House at the rapture event.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Reprobate means disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper in heaven for being in unrepentant iniquity still.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So those who fell away from the faith or are engaging in dead works that deny Him are still saved, but at risk of being left behind unless they look to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd & Friend to help them lay aside every weight & sin to be that vessel unto honor.

Dont need to judge, history shows what happened in the church at Rome and spread through the empire. The Greeks when they conquered Persia, had picked up the Babylonian worship and you can see from history that went and finished Alexander the Great's project of restoring Bel’s (Baal) temple at Babylon and re-founded Nebo’s temple at Borsippa, and many pagan temples where restored as the Babylonian religion became dominant among the Greeks. The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of their idol was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Mesopotamian sun-god. History tells us..

"By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward. Under the Empire many of the conquered people were transported to Rome as slaves and took their religions directly with them.
The Chaldean astrology, of which the Syrian priests were enthusiastic disciples, had furnished them (the Romans) with the elements of a scientific theology (Cumont, Oriental Religions, p. 199). And the "Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian in the third century, proclaimed the sun-god as the official god of the Romans. This Sun-worship was the final form which Roman paganism assumed. In 274 A.D. the emperor Aurelian conferred on it official recognition, inspired by what he had seen at Palmyra, he founded a gorgeous temple in honour of Sol Invictus — the invincible Sun — served by priests who had precedence even over the members of the ancient Collegium pontificum; and in the following century, the Claudian emperors worshipped the almighty star (the sun) ... The invincible Sun raised to the supreme position in the divine hierarchy, peculiar protector of sovereigns and of the Empire, tends to absorb or subordinate to himself all other divinities (Cumont, Astrology and Religion, p. 133)."

Even the later Roman emperors, took up the Babylonian sun god and its worship spread among the Roman empire. So we see the connection to the ancient worship of the Babylonian sun god, and its true origin, and the church at Rome was at the center and the pagan system of worship was brought in and we see the change from Sabbath to Sunday which was slowly introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century, and it was not from the Apostles or scripture, but for another reason of pagan origin. It brought in a slew of the false beliefs that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders with new names to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines, and history lays it out.

 

[Hobie]

Now the 'tradition' the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasnt the tradition of the Apostles as we can see from the changes. But the pagan tradition from all the way from Babylon, and the corruption from the Gnostic sect which spread. Now lets take a look at the College of Pontiffs or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.

So lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from, they just changed the names.

Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place. The bishop of Rome soon had no other bishop held at the same level, from the patriarch of Alexandria to the one in Jerusalem and he was pushing for more converts so allowing the pagan beliefs and ceremonies to come into the church.

 

[Hobie]

The thing is, this was not just a slight mistake or wrong turn in the leaders of the church or its worship but a deliberate corruption to form the antichrist entity that it is today. Its not in the future, but right before us, as we find that there are many sources that point out the origins of the apostasy and corruption that was brought in....

...the "temples, incense, oil lamps, votive offerings, holy water, Holidays, and seasons of devotion, processions, blessings of the fields, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure (of priests, munks and nuns), images, and statues... are all of PAGAN ORIGIN." -The Development of the Christian Religion Cardinal Newman p.359

The penetration of the religion of Babylon became so general and well known that Rome was called the "New Babylon." -Faith of our fathers 1917 ed. Cardinal Gibbons, p. 106

"Confiding then in the power of Christianity to resist the infection of evil, and to transmute the instruments and appendages of demon worship to an evangelical use... the rulers of the church from early times were prepared should occasion arise, to adopt, or imitate, or sanction the existing rites and customs of the populace." -Development of Christian Doctrine, Cardinal Newman. p. 372

Cardinal Newman lists many examples of things of "pagan origin" which the papacy brought into the church "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen: "in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--Cardinal J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].
"in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen:" "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; holy water; asylums [hermitages, monasteries and convents]; [pagan] holy-days, processions, sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images, . . . and the Kyrie Eleison."--J. H. Newman, An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1920 edition, p.373 [Roman Catholic].

"The mighty Catholic Church was little more then the Roman Empire baptized."-- A. C, Flick, The Rise of the Mediaeval Church, 1909 edition, p. 148. From ancient Babylon came the cult of the virgin mother-goddess, who was worshiped as the highest of gods--see S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition. This worship was taken over as Mary-worship by Rome. Heathen sun-worship on Sunday was likewise adopted by the Roman apostasy....

 

[Hobie]

...."In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults." -Life of Constantine, Eusabius, cited in Altai-Nimalaya, p. 94

"The Church did everything it couldto stamp out such 'pagan' rites, but had to capitualet and allow the rites to continue with only the name of the local diety changed to some Christian saint's name." -Religious Tradition and Myth. Dr. Edwin Goodenough, Professor of Religion, Harvard University. p. 56, 57

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivals, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present ... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called tot the source whence these rites have sprung. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, p. VII

"We know that Mithraism was a state religion of Rome at the time that the Christian church was established there. Evidently tenants of Mithraism such as Sunday worship and eating the wafer in the mass were adopted into Christianity at that time" -Jim Arrabito "666 & the Mark"

In Stanley's History, page 40: "The popes filled the place of the vacant emperors at Rome, inheriting
their power, their prestige, and their titles from PAGANISM."

"In short, sun worship, symbolically speaking, lies at the very heart of the great festivals which the Christian Church celebrates today, and these relics of heathen religion have, through the medium of their sacred rites, curiously enough blended with practices and beliefs utterly antagonistic to the spirit which prompted them." -Sun Lore of All Ages, Olcott, p. 248

"When the zealots of the primitave Christian Church sought to Christianize paganism, the pagan initiates retorted with a powerful effort to paganize Christianity. The Christians failed but the pagans succeeded. With the decline of paganism the initiated pagan hierophants transferred their base of operations to the new vehicle of primitive Christianity, adopting the symbols of the new cult to conceal those eternal verities which are ever the priceless possession of the wise." -The secret teachings of all ages, Manley P. Hall p. CLXXXV

"...The world, cloaked with a form of righteousness, walked into the church. Now the work of corruption rapidly progressed. Paganism, while appearing to be vanquished, became the conqueror. Her spirit controlled the church. Her doctrines, ceremonies, and superstitions were incorporated into the faith and worship of the professed followers of Christ." -The Great Controversy, p. 50

"The belief in miracle-working objects, talismans, amulets, and formulas was dear to Christianity, and they were received from pagan antiquity . . . The vestments of the clergy and the papal title of 'pontifex maximus' were legacies from pagan Rome. The [Catholic] Church found that rural converts still revered certain springs, wells, trees, and stones; she thought it wiser to bless these to Christian use then to break too sharply the customs of sentiment . . . Pagan festivals dear to the people, reappeared as Christian feasts, and pagan rites were transformed into Christian liturgy . . . The Christian calendar of saints replaced the Roman 'fasti' [gods]; ancient divinities dear to the people were allowed to revive under the names of 'Christian saints' . . . Gradually the tenderest features of Astarte, Cybele, Artemis, Diana, and Isis were gathered together in the worship of Mary"--Wil Durant, The Age of Faith, 1950, pp. 745-746.

Langdon tells us that Mary worship came from ancient Babylon where the virgin mother-goddess was worshiped under the name "Ishtar." Elsewhere in the Near East, the mother-goddess was called "Astarte, Ashtoreth, Persephone, Artemis, [Diana] of Ephesus, Venus, and Isis." This goddess, considered to be greater than any god, was called by these heathen the "virgin mother, merciful mother, Queen of Heaven, and my lady" [which is what "Madonna" means in Italian]. Langdon says she was often sculptured in mother-and-infant images, or as a "mater dolorom" [sorrowful mother] interceding for men with a wrathful god. And thus ancient paganism was brought into the churches and lives of Christians.--see S.H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, 1931 edition, pp. 12-34, 108-111, 341-344. Laing mentions several other corruptions by which the mother-goddess was worshiped by heathens, that Rome adopted into Christianity: holy water, votive offerings, elevation of sacred objects [lifting of the host], the priest's bells, the decking of images, processions, festivals, prayers for the dead, the worship of relics and the statues of saints.--see Gordon J. Laing, Survivals of Roman Religion, 1931 edition, pp. 92-95, 123-131,238-241.

Two dominant elements brought into Christianity from paganism by Rome were Sun worship symbols and the religious practices of ancient Babylon] "The solar theology of the Chaldaeans [Babylonians], had decisive effect . . . [upon the] final form reached by the religion of the pagan Semites, and following them, by that of the Romans when [the Roman emperor] Aurelian, the conqueror of Palmyra, had raised 'Sol Invictus' [the invincible sun-god] to the rank of supreme divinity in the Empire"--The Cambridge Ancient History, vol. 11, pp. 643, 646-647. From Palmyra he transferred to the new sanctuary the images of Helios [the sun-god] and Bel, the malaise patron god of Babylon--see Cumont, The Oriental Religions In Roman Paganism, 1911 edition, pp. 114-115, 124.

"The [Catholic] Church took the pagan philosophy and made it the buckler of faith against the heathen. She took the pagan Roman Pantheon, temple of all the gods, and made it sacred to all the martyrs; so it stands to this day. She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday. She took the pagan Easter and made it the feast we celebrate during this season . . . The Sun was a foremost god with heathendom . . . The sun has worshipers at this hour in Persia and other lands . . . Hence the Church would seem to say, 'Keep that old pagan name [Sunday]. It shall remain consecrated, sanctified.' And thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder, became the Christian Sunday, sacred to Jesus"--William L. Gildea, "Paschale Gaudium," in The Catholic World, 58, March, 1894, p. 809 [A Roman Catholic weekly].

"The removal of the capital of the Empire from Rome to Constantinople in 330, left the Western Church, practically free from imperial power, to develop its own form of organization. The Bishop of Rome, in the seat of the Caesars, was now the greatest man in the West, and was soon [when the barbarians over-ran the empire] forced to become the political as well as the spiritual head."--A.C. Flick, The Rise of the Mediaval Church p. 168.

"Whatever Roman elements the barbarians and Aryans left . . . [came] under the protection of the Bishop of Rome, who was the chief person there after the Emperor's disappearance . . . The Roman Church in this way privily pushed itself into the place of the Roman World-Empire, of which it is the actual continuation; the empire has not perished, but has only undergone a transformation . . . It [the Catholic Church] is a political creation, and as imposing as a World-Empire, because [it is a continuation of] the Roman Empire. The Pope, who calls himself 'King' and 'Pontifex Maximus' [the title of the Roman Emperor in the time of Christ], is Caesar's successor."--Adolf Harnack, What is Christianity? 1963, pp. 269-270.

"Long ages ago, when Rome through the neglect of the Western emperors was left to the mercy of the barbarous hordes, the Romans turned to one figure for aid and protection, and asked him to rule them; and thus, . . . commenced the temporal sovereignty of the popes. And meekly stepping to the throne of Caesar, the vicar of Christ took up the scepter to which the emperors and kings of Europe were to bow in reverence through so many ages."--American Catholic Quarterly Review, April, 1911.

[Speaking of the time, about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was crumbling to pieces:] "No, the [Catholic] Church will not descend into the tomb. It will survive the Empire . . . At length a second empire will arise, and of this empire the Pope will be the master--more then this, he will be the master of Europe. He will dictate his orders to kings who will obey them"--Andrea Lagarde, The Latin Church in the Middle Ages, 1915, p. vi.

"From the foregoing, which treats merely of the more important solar festivles, it is clear that these products of paganism are as much in force at present... as they ever were, and that Christianity countenances, and in many cases has actually adopted and practiced, pagan rites whose heathen significance is merely lost sight of because attention is not called to the source whence those rites have spring. So heavy was this infiltration that Sir Samuel Dill exclaims: "Christianity is only a sect of the Mithraists." -Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius. P. vii

It is the Beast of Revelation and Antichrist power which claims to be God on earth and fulfills all the prophecies concerning it in Gods Word...

 

[Hobie]

Scripture tells us who is this entity and what it does..
Revelation 13:5-7
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It doesnt take much to find it...

“The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God.”
Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary

“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.”
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

“The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth.”
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, “Cities Petrus Bertanous”.”…the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power.”
Lucius Ferraris, in “Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica”, Volume V, article on “Papa, Article II”, titled “Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility”, #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: “To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical.”Father A. Pereira says: “It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title ‘Lord God the Pope,’ for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII.”

Writers on the Canon Law say, “The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth.”
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. – Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.

Pope Nicholas I declared: “the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man.”
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para.

“The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man …. he is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power.” Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, pp.25-29

“The supreme teacher in the Church is the Roman Pontiff. Union of minds, therefore, requires… complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and to the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.”
Leo VIII, «On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens», Encyclical letter, 1890

“God separates those whom the Roman Pontiff, who exercises the functions, not of mere man, but of the true God…dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority.”
Decretals of Gregory IX», Book 1, Chapter 7.3

“Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum).”
Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, ‘Papa II’, p.26)

“Innocent III has written: “Indeed, it is not top much to say that in view of the sublimity of their offices the priests are so many gods.”
The dignity of the priesthood by Liguori p, 36

“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh.”
Catholic National July 1895

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty”
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894

“For thou art the shepherd, thou art the physician, thou art the director, thou art the husbandman, finally thou art another God on earth.”
Labbe and Cossart’s “History of the Councils.” Vol. XIV, col.

and it just goes on...

The Pope Claims To Be God On Earth

“The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God.” Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary “All names which in the S…

testallthings.com

 

[ChristB4us]

Thank you for your opinion.

More than an opinion when talking about the sheep that is not of the fold that followed His voice, but went astray following the stranger's voice. Please prayerfully discern this truth with Jesus Christ to see this.

Let us look at what appears to be a contradiction but in the bigger picture, it is not.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here Jesus says He will not cast out all the Father has given Him and neither will He lose any, and yet there is a falling away from the faith 2 Thessalonians 2:3 just as those that went out from us so that it may be manifested that they were not of us per your 1 John 2:19 reference.

How can that be since scripture cannot go against scripture?

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV <---- At this link is the parable of the ten virgins as being of that kingdom of Heaven but five were foolish for being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil ( Holy Ghost ) when by being of that kingdom of Heaven, they had been filled with oil always since salvation, thus denying the truth of our salvation as the Witness from God per Matthew 9:17 below.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So even though the five foolish virgins are still of the kingdom of Heaven, they missed out on the wedding reception.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV That is how Jesus can cast them out into the coming great tribulation for those that did not repent of their spiritual fornication in the church at Thyatira. It is an excommunication done by the Lord as the church is supposed to do, but the cast out are still His.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Physical death is the result of those left behind at the pre-great tribulation rapture event and yet that foundation laid by Jesus Christ can never be removed for why the spirit is still saved in that day.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what that day is about at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God shall judge His House first.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

So left behind or not, their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven as He will lose none of all the Father has given Him for why they will not be cast out of His kingdom of Heaven, but not all will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes to attend that wedding reception in Heaven.

 

[ChristB4us]

Dont need to judge, history shows what happened in the church at Rome and spread through the empire. The Greeks when they conquered Persia, had picked up the Babylonian worship and you can see from history that went and finished Alexander the Great's project of restoring Bel’s (Baal) temple at Babylon and re-founded Nebo’s temple at Borsippa, and many pagan temples where restored as the Babylonian religion became dominant among the Greeks. The Babylonian gods took Greek names, as we see the Greek name of their idol was Zeus Olympus, but it was clearly the old Mesopotamian sun-god. History tells us..

"By the second century the Roman Empire annexed Mesopotamia to its rule, and the Babylonian system moved westward. Under the Empire many of the conquered people were transported to Rome as slaves and took their religions directly with them.
The Chaldean astrology, of which the Syrian priests were enthusiastic disciples, had furnished them (the Romans) with the elements of a scientific theology (Cumont, Oriental Religions, p. 199). And the "Babylonian sun-worship and the mystery religions became the official religions of Rome. The Emperor Aurelian in the third century, proclaimed the sun-god as the official god of the Romans. This Sun-worship was the final form which Roman paganism assumed. In 274 A.D. the emperor Aurelian conferred on it official recognition, inspired by what he had seen at Palmyra, he founded a gorgeous temple in honour of Sol Invictus — the invincible Sun — served by priests who had precedence even over the members of the ancient Collegium pontificum; and in the following century, the Claudian emperors worshipped the almighty star (the sun) ... The invincible Sun raised to the supreme position in the divine hierarchy, peculiar protector of sovereigns and of the Empire, tends to absorb or subordinate to himself all other divinities (Cumont, Astrology and Religion, p. 133)."

Even the later Roman emperors, took up the Babylonian sun god and its worship spread among the Roman empire. So we see the connection to the ancient worship of the Babylonian sun god, and its true origin, and the church at Rome was at the center and the pagan system of worship was brought in and we see the change from Sabbath to Sunday which was slowly introduced at Rome about the middle of the second century, and it was not from the Apostles or scripture, but for another reason of pagan origin. It brought in a slew of the false beliefs that had dominated during the Roman Empire. For example, it reinstated the ceremonies and obligations of the Collegium Pontificum and the position of Pontifex Maximus of the ancient Roman polytheistic religion and created Christian orders with new names to replace the ancient Roman ones such as the Vestal Virgins and the flamines, and history lays it out.

Has history really proven that pagans switched the Christian worship from Saturday ( sabbath ) to Sunday or was it merely something to claim that they did but it was already practiced in the churches per the order given by Paul to all the churches for that first day of the week?

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

How do you explain this order from Paul to all the churches that when they do their collection at church service to set aside a portion from the bounty collected for the support of missionaries on the first day of the week, Sunday?

 

[Hobie]

More than an opinion when talking about the sheep that is not of the fold that followed His voice, but went astray following the stranger's voice. Please prayerfully discern this truth with Jesus Christ to see this.

Let us look at what appears to be a contradiction but in the bigger picture, it is not.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here Jesus says He will not cast out all the Father has given Him and neither will He lose any, and yet there is a falling away from the faith 2 Thessalonians 2:3 just as those that went out from us so that it may be manifested that they were not of us per your 1 John 2:19 reference.

How can that be since scripture cannot go against scripture?

Matthew 25:1-13 KJV <---- At this link is the parable of the ten virgins as being of that kingdom of Heaven but five were foolish for being out to the market seeking to be filled with oil ( Holy Ghost ) when by being of that kingdom of Heaven, they had been filled with oil always since salvation, thus denying the truth of our salvation as the Witness from God per Matthew 9:17 below.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

So even though the five foolish virgins are still of the kingdom of Heaven, they missed out on the wedding reception.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV That is how Jesus can cast them out into the coming great tribulation for those that did not repent of their spiritual fornication in the church at Thyatira. It is an excommunication done by the Lord as the church is supposed to do, but the cast out are still His.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Physical death is the result of those left behind at the pre-great tribulation rapture event and yet that foundation laid by Jesus Christ can never be removed for why the spirit is still saved in that day.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

That is what that day is about at the pre great tribulation rapture event when God shall judge His House first.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

So left behind or not, their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven as He will lose none of all the Father has given Him for why they will not be cast out of His kingdom of Heaven, but not all will be ready for the Bridegroom when He comes to attend that wedding reception in Heaven.

The thing is, it doesnt say the believers will not be shaken and persecuted and hunted down to be killed by the Antichrist power. In fact
in Daniel we read that one of the characteristics of the Antichrist is that it would wear out the saints of the Most High:

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws (Daniel 7:25).
The Papacy has a long history of "wearing out" the saints of the Most High. Below is a timeline of the generally aggressive history of the Roman Catholic Church, but the most tragic one that concerns the Word of God is the persecution during the Middle Ages of anyone daring to oppose the Church. The Bible predicts that the saints of the Most High would be persecuted for 1260 years.

Historian J. A. Wylie said this:
It is idle in Rome to say, "I gave you the Bible, and therefore you must believe in me before you can believe in it." The facts...conclusively dispose of this claim. Rome did not give us the Bible, she did all in her power to keep it form us; she retained it under the seal of a dead language; and when others broke that seal, and threw open its pages to all, she stood over the book, and unsheathing her fiery sword, would permit none to read the message of life, save at the peril of eternal anathema" J.A. Wylie, History of Protestantism Volume 1 (Virginia: Heartland Publications, 2002): 58.

During these years of oppression in which the masses were kept in ignorance and the priest held sway over every aspect of life, here and there arose individuals willing to shine a light into the darkness. Christian author Dave Hunt tells us that because they rejected transubstantiation, "Christians were burned at the stake by Roman Catholics by the hundreds of thousands." Dave Hunt, A Cup of Trembling (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House Publishers, 1995): 160. We find many instances in the historical record:

The Albigensian 'crusade' in southern France included Albigensian Christians and Catholics were slain. By the time the Roman Catholic armies finished their 'crusade,' almost the entire population of southern France (mostly Albigensian Christians) has been exterminated. During the six centuries of papal Inquisition that began in the 13th century, up to 50 million people were killed. Read what J. A. Wylie's The History of Protestantism has to say about the Crusades against the Abigenses

1540 -1570 Roman Catholic armies butcher at least 900,000 Waldensian Christians of all ages during this 30-year period.

1550 - 1560 Roman Catholic troops slaughter at least 250,000 Dutch Protestants via torture, hanging, and burning during this ten-year period.

1553 -1558 Roman Catholic Queen Mary I of England (aka 'bloody Mary') attempts to bring England back under the yoke of papal tyranny and during her reign, many good Christian men and woman are burned to death at the sake. Her victims include bishops, scholars, and other Protestant leaders.

1572 St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. French Roman Catholic soldiers begin killing Protestants in Paris on the night of August 24, 1572. The soldiers kill at least 10,000 Protestants during the first three days. At least 8000 more Protestants are killed as the slaughter spreads to the countryside.

1641 -1649 Eight years of Jesuit-instigated Roman Catholic butchery of Irish Protestants claims the lives of at least 100,000 Protestants.

1685 French Roman Catholic soldiers slaughter approximately 500,000 French Protestant Huguenots on the orders of Roman Catholic King Louis 14 of France. it just goes on and on... The Dark side of Catholicism

https://www.end-times-prophecy.org/secret-history-catholic-church.html

 

[Hobie]

The Waldensians, and many others were exterminated, in the persecution of the Cathar of Southern Europe, northern Italy, it is estimated one million victims of the . [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.183]

The Spanish Inquisition killed untold numbers and the Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. Of course we cant leave out John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, who was burned at the stake in 1415.

In the 15th century we find the Church lauching a persecution against Hussites, with thousands slain. In 1538 pope Paul III declared a crusade against England who had left its domination and all English made as slaves of Church, but England being a island made that a bit difficult to implement. In the 1568, the Spanish Inquisition tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands and thousands were slain. In1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 28-31]

In the Catholic 17th century 30 years' war against the Protestants, at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.31-32] And its recorded in the Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany, roughly 30,000Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller. [D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992, 191. ]

And of course we all know what happened to the leaders who led the Reformation which is well documented.....
'...Hus was arrested and thrown into the dungeon of the Dominican monastery. In December a formal investigation against Hus began, but Hus was not allowed an advocate for his defense. Transferred to the castle of the Archbishop of Konstanz, Hus was kept for 73 days, separated from his friends, chained day and night, poorly fed, and ill.

On June 5, 1415, his trial began, and Hus was moved to a Franciscan monastery. He declared himself willing to recant if his errors should be proven to him from the Bible, but otherwise defended his reformist protests against the Church.

The condemnation took place on July 6, 1415, in the presence of the assembly of the Council in the Cathedral. After the High Mass and Liturgy, Hus was led into the church. He protested that even at this hour he did not wish anything, but to be convinced from Scripture. He fell upon his knees and asked God to forgive all his enemies.

At the place of execution, he knelt down, spread out his hands, and prayed aloud. The executioner undressed him, tied his hands behind his back, and bound his neck with a chain to a stake around which wood and straw had been piled up so that it covered him to the neck. At the last moment Hus refused to recant and thus save his own life.

“God is my witness that the things charged against me I never preached,” Hus said. “In the same truth of the Gospel which I have written, taught, and preached, drawing upon the sayings and positions of the holy doctors, I am ready to die today.”

Hus’s ashes were thrown into the Rhine River.' Today in history: Jan Hus burned at the stake 600 years ago.

 

[Hobie]

Has history really proven that pagans switched the Christian worship from Saturday ( sabbath ) to Sunday or was it merely something to claim that they did but it was already practiced in the churches per the order given by Paul to all the churches for that first day of the week?

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

How do you explain this order from Paul to all the churches that when they do their collection at church service to set aside a portion from the bounty collected for the support of missionaries on the first day of the week, Sunday?

I think it is clear from history that Sunday has nothing to do with the Sabbath, even after the resurrection the disciples continued with the Sabbath as it was before and Christ tells it it would continue so you have to really twist scripture to fit Sunday as the day of worship. It just isnt there.......Here is a good explanation by by Kenneth A. Strand in The Sabbath in Scripture and History:

"...The word Sunday is not found in the Bible. In the New Testament the first day of the week is mentioned eight times. In none of the eight instances is the first day said to be a day of worship, never is it said to be the Christian substitute for the Old Testament Sabbath, and never do the texts suggest that the first day of the week should be regarded as a memorial of Christ's resurrection. Let us briefly consider each of the eight New Testament passages that mention the first day of the week.

Matthew 28:1, "After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. And suddenly there was a great earthquake. . . ." Jesus was crucified on Friday. He rested in the tomb over the Sabbath and rose early on Sunday morning. The verse indicates that the women disciples returned to the tomb at the very first opportunity after the death and burial of Jesus. Because the Sabbath came so soon after His burial, they could not approach the tomb again until after sundown on Sabbath evening. (The Sabbath began at sundown on the sixth day and ended at sundown on the seventh day; compare Lev. 23:32; Neh. 13:19; Mark 1:21, 32) Early Sunday morning was the most convenient time for them to visit the tomb.

Mark 16:1, 2, "When the sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. And very early on the first day of the week, when the sun had risen, they went to the tomb."Mark records the same events as Matthew with the additional information that the women visited the tomb early on the Sunday morning for the express purpose of anointing Jesus' body with spices.

Mark 16:9, "Now after he rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, from whom he had cast out seven demons."This verse simply records that, after His resurrection early on the Sunday morning, Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene.

Luke 23:54 24:1, "It [the day of Jesus' death and burial] was the day of Preparation, and the sabbath was beginning. The women who had come with him from Galilee followed, and they saw the tomb and how his body was laid. Then they returned, and prepared spices and ointments. On the sabbath they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they came to the tomb, taking the spices that they had prepared." The Sabbath came a few hours after Jesus' death on the cross. The women disciples "rested the sabbath day according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56, KJV). Then very early in the morning of the first day they visited the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus. The fact that they observed the Sabbath rest is sufficient indication that Jesus had never attempted to change the day or to suggest that after His death the first day would replace the Sabbath. Writing years after the event, Luke gave not the slightest hint that, even though the women disciples of Jesus observed the Sabbath, such a practice was no longer expected of Christians. He simply recorded that the Sabbath day "according to the commandment," which Jesus' followers were careful to observe, was the day after the crucifixion day (Friday), and before the resurrection day (Sunday).

John 20:1, "Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb."Mary Magdalene visited the tomb early the first day of the week. Nothing is said of Sunday as a day of worship or rest.

John 20:19, "When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you.'" On the evening of the first day of the week the disciples were assembled behind locked doors "for fear of the Jews." Jesus appeared to them at that time. The passage does not say that henceforth Sunday was to be the day for worship. Since it was the evening of the first day of the week that Jesus appeared to the disciples, it was after sundown. According to Jewish reckoning this was actually the beginning of the second day (Monday; compare Gen. 1:5, 8 ). A week later when Thomas happened to be present, Jesus met with the disciples again (verse 26). But, writing years later, John records nothing regarding Sunday as a day of Christian worship. John's narrative gives no warrant for regarding Sunday as a substitute for the Sabbath or as a day to be distinguished by Christians above any other day of the week. And there is no indication in the passage that Sunday should henceforth be observed as a memorial of Christ's resurrection.....