The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Those who are elected to salvation are elected unconditionally;

And therefore there is also no condition (other than God's will) that sends certain people to hell.

How is that not an arbitrary decision?

I have been accused of misrepresenting Calvinsim by speaking of these things.

But is not what I am saying logical?

But it is not language that the Calvinist would like to be applied to his doctrine.

Why is that?

Is it not because it is a true indictment on what is believed by the Calvinist?

 

[Josheb]

But is not what I am saying logical?

No, it is not logical.


From the very first words the opening post is fallacious. Evidence? There is no such thing as a "god of Calvinism." That's a complete falsehood. Logically, it serves as a red herring. From those words on the op is not logical. Calvinism does not teach people do not have a choice. That's a straw man. Calvinism does not teach God's decisions are arbitrary. That's another straw man. Calvinism does not teach there is no condition that sends a person to hell. That's a third straw man. The misrepresentation of Calvinism is not an accusation. It is a fact. Claiming it is an accusation is a fourth straw man.

So, no, this opening post is not logical At ALL!



If you would sincerely like to better understand Calvinism and understand it correctly so that you never again write an op with five logical fallacies in it, then I can help as long as your efforts are genuine and earnest. If, on the other hand, this is intended solely as a rag on Cals then please be forthcoming and say so. I'll know exactly how to handle the troll. You choose.




Let me also encourage and exhort you to (re-)read the forum rules before responding, especially rules 2, 6, and 7. We do things differently in CCCF.

 

[atpollard]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

• For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes, that is,] His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, being understood by what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasonings, and their senseless hearts were darkened. - Romans 1:18-21 [NASB]
• Therefore you have no excuse, you [foolish] person, everyone [of you] who passes judgment; for in that [matter in] which you judge someone else, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, you [foolish] person who passes judgment on those who practice such things, and [yet] does them [as well,] that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and restraint and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL REPAY EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give] eternal life; but to those who are self-serving and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, [He will give] wrath and indignation. [There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, for the Jew first and also for the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who does what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; - Romans 2:1-12 [NASB]
• What then? Are we better [than they?] Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written: "THERE IS NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NO ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NO ONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD; THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME CORRUPT; THERE IS NO ONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." - Romans 3:9-12 [NASB]

It is not arbitrary - all have sinned and deserve damnation.
Most receive JUSTICE and, in love, God chooses to present some with the unmerited gift of MERCY.

The decision to save some is ARBITRARY:

• What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION." So then, [it does] not [depend] on the [person] who wants [it] nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. - Romans 9:14-16 [NASB]

The alternative is God listening to your boasts about how you were saved because you were better than the damned - you made the right choice and they did not - you deserve SALVATION and they deserve DAMNATION! To YOU belongs the Glory for being so wise!

 

[justbyfaith]

Does not Calvinism teach Unconditional Election?

Am I wrong to believe that this means that there is no condition other than God's will, in Calvinism, that results in salvation (and also damnation)?

I have read Calvinistic authors who proclaim that God chose us and we do not choose Him; to the exclusion of the concept that God chose us on the basis of His foreknowledge of whether or not we will choose Him.

In this understanding it seems to me that if I come to Jesus and am not one of His elect (i.e. He did not choose me), that He will cast me out as being of the non-elect.

Because if my salvation has nothing to do with my choice in the matter, then His choice is all that matters; and my choosing Him will not avail for me in procuring salvation.

However, John 6:37 tells me that if I come to Him He will in no wise cast me out.

Therefore if I come to Him, there can be no presupposed rejection of me based on my being of the non-elect.

Which indicates that my choice in the matter does have a relevance to my salvation.

Now, you may be a Calvinist who does not believe what many Calvinists believe about free will not being a factor in salvation.

But that does not mean that such a thing is not the belief of many Calvinists or that I am producing "straw man" after "straw man" in an attempt to discredit Calvinism.

I understand that there are many facets in Calvinism and that your understanding of that doctrine may not come in line with what I am attempting to refute as Calvinistic doctrine; which, I will say, is in fact the belief of many who adhere to Calvinism.

You have made it clear that you do not personally, as a Calvinist, believe the things in Calvinism that I have attempted to refute.

Therefore I suggest that you leave the arguing up to those Calvinists who do believe what I am trying to refute; as they have a vested interest in defending certain Calvinistic doctrines that I have been threatening here.

But I did notice that you said nothing of my main contention in the OP: which was that the choice of the god of Calvinism to save some unconidtionally and to "unconditionally" send others to the lake of fire, is an arbitrary decision.

So, please comment on what you think of my use of the word "arbitrary"

 

[justbyfaith]

The alternative is God listening to your boasts about how you were saved because you were better than the damned - you made the right choice and they did not - you deserve SALVATION and they deserve DAMNATION! To YOU belongs the Glory for being so wise!

Of course there is no merit in my choice to receive Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. That decision on my part came as the result of selfishness and sin...being faced with the reality of hell, my instinct of self-preservation led me to believe in Jesus Christ and receive Him as Saviour and Lord.

And since He says by His promise that this is the way by which I can enter into grace, I believe Him, that I have entered into grace (gained access by faith into this grace wherein I stand).

There was no merit on my part that procured this salvation; rather my faith developed as the result of a sinful instinct of self-preservation and God honoured that because He said that He would honour such a thing.

 

[makesends]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Those who are elected to salvation are elected unconditionally;

And therefore there is also no condition (other than God's will) that sends certain people to hell.

How is that not an arbitrary decision?

Ignoring your 'logical' sequence for now, you seem to not understand the word, "arbitrary", or not understand God. He did not choose from among a pool of possibles for his elect. Not only does he have a specific purpose for whom he chose, and even a specific purpose for everything he does, but he CREATED each of the elect, and of the reprobate, for his own particular use of them.

The contention of Calvinism is that those elect are chosen, not because of any personal worthiness or earned desert, but because of God's purpose for them. God doesn't play eeny, meeny, miney, moe.

ar·bi·trar·y

ADJECTIVE

1. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system:
   
   similar: capricious; whimsical; random; chance; erratic; unpredictable
   
   

 

[makesends]

Does not Calvinism teach Unconditional Election?

Am I wrong to believe that this means that there is no condition other than God's will, in Calvinism, that results in salvation (and also damnation)?

What —God's will is not enough? God chooses according to his own purposes. Purpose, not arbitrary.

Are you going to tell us that God chooses us according to our worthiness?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Those who are elected to salvation are elected unconditionally;

And therefore there is also no condition (other than God's will) that sends certain people to hell.

How is that not an arbitrary decision?

I have been accused of misrepresenting Calvinsim by speaking of these things.

But is not what I am saying logical?

But it is not language that the Calvinist would like to be applied to his doctrine.

Why is that?

Is it not because it is a true indictment on what is believed by the Calvinist?

The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

 

[justbyfaith]

What —God's will is not enough? God chooses according to his own purposes. Purpose, not arbitrary.

Are you going to tell us that God chooses us according to our worthiness?

So, God purposes to send certain people to hell?

That is even worse than arbitrary in my opinion.

Because it seems to me that there is no reason given for that condemnation other than it is God's will.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you going to tell us that God chooses us according to our worthiness?

I already addressed that.

 

[justbyfaith]

The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

So, Calvinism is the gospel which saves.

For some 1400 years of church history, no one was saved according to that idea.

 

[Josheb]

What —God's will is not enough? God chooses according to his own purposes. Purpose, not arbitrary.

Are you going to tell us that God chooses us according to our worthiness?

Yeah, well, you know, maybe one day he's throwing darts into the future to see where they land and the next, he's pulling names out of a can .

 

[Arial]

I have read Calvinistic authors who proclaim that God chose us and we do not choose Him; to the exclusion of the concept that God chose us on the basis of His foreknowledge of whether or not we will choose Him.

It is the Bible that proclaims that. That is where Calvinism obtained its doctrines.

In this understanding it seems to me that if I come to Jesus and am not one of His elect (i.e. He did not choose me), that He will cast me out as being of the non-elect.

Anyone who comes to Jesus does so because God has brought him there. It shows they are His elect.

Now, you may be a Calvinist who does not believe what many Calvinists believe about free will not being a factor in salvation.

Then they are not Calvinists. Calvinism disagrees with free will being a factor in salvation because there is no such thing as free will. The will does not operate in a vacuum. It always follows what we most desire. In that aspect it is free. It will never follow what it does not most desire. In that it is not free to do what it does not want to do. Calvinism teaches that it cannot choose Christ because in our fallen state we never desire God above keeping our favorite sins.

But that does not mean that such a thing is not the belief of many Calvinists or that I am producing "straw man" after "straw man" in an attempt to discredit Calvinism.

You are nevertheless producing a straw man argument when you state Calvinism as what it is not and argue from that position.

You have made it clear that you do not personally, as a Calvinist, believe the things in Calvinism that I have attempted to refute.

Who is "you"?

But I did notice that you said nothing of my main contention in the OP: which was that the choice of the god of Calvinism to save some unconidtionally and to "unconditionally" send others to the lake of fire, is an arbitrary decision.

So, please comment on what you think of my use of the word "arbitrary"

That is a big straw man.
God saves some unconditionally, meaning His choice is not based on anything in them good or bad, on anything they will do or will not do. His reason is in Himself and all He tell us concerning that it is according to His own pleasure and purpose. But it is not arbitrary (based on nothing and random) and it cannot be. There is nothing, ever, arbitrary about God.

The second fallacy produced as an argument that God unconditionally sends others to the lake of fire arbitrarily. That is where we are all headed, and justly so, unless God saves some. He sends no one there by His choice, it is justice that sends them there.

 

[Arial]

So, Calvinism is the gospel which saves.

Calvinism is a theology. And that theology teaches that salvation is in Jesus alone, through who He is and the work that He did, alone, and is by grace and through faith, alone. And that faith is in this Jesus. And it comes by hearing the gospel and believing it. Not choosing it. Not deciding to choose it. But by believing it.

 

[Josheb]

The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

No.

The "Unconditional" in Unconditional Election simply and solely means it is not the condition of the sinner that matters. God does not look at the sinner when He makes His decision. There are no conditions of the sinner considered. God does not foresee any conditions on our part that induces Him to save us. Our salvation does not rest on us; it rests solely on the gracious, sovereign decision of God. Salvation is not predicated on the sinner's works, character, hair style, or theological knowledge .

Don't teach this guy more errors. He already has enough problems correctly understanding Calvinism.

 

[Josheb]

So, Calvinism is the gospel which saves.

For some 1400 years of church history, no one was saved according to that idea.

Calvinism did not invent a new gospel or a new soteriology. Calvin was Catholic. Calvin was Augustinian (so was Arminius).

 

[makesends]

So, God purposes to send certain people to hell?

That is even worse than arbitrary in my opinion.

Because it seems to me that there is no reason given for that condemnation other than it is God's will.

The reason is given besides that it is God's will. They are enemies of God. They rebel against God. They hate God. There is nothing in them worthy of God's mercy. Do you need more? —THEY will it.

 

[makesends]

Bob Carabbio said:
The "Calvinist work around" for that issue that I've been given here is:

"TULIP Unconditional" isn't really "unconditional" at all, but based on God's Foreknowledge about people - i.e. He "elected" the people that would respond correctly to HIS "Calvinist regeneration" thing.

BUT HEY!!! it's only theology, after all.

No.

The "Unconditional" in Unconditional Election simply and solely means it is not the condition of the sinner that matters. God does not look at the sinner when He makes His decision. There are no conditions of the sinner considered. God does not foresee any conditions on our part that induces Him to save us. Our salvation does not rest on us; it rests solely on the gracious, sovereign decision of God. Salvation is not predicated on the sinner's works, character, hair style, or theological knowledge .

Don't teach this guy more errors. He already has enough problems correctly understanding Calvinism.

I'm wondering who taught @Bob Carabbio that!

 

[justbyfaith]

It is the Bible that proclaims that. That is where Calvinism obtained its doctrines.

No, the Bible teaches that predestination is based in foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 1 Peter 2:2).

Anyone who comes to Jesus does so because God has brought him there. It shows they are His elect.

So, if someone chooses Him, they are of the elect.

Then they are not Calvinists. Calvinism disagrees with free will being a factor in salvation because there is no such thing as free will. The will does not operate in a vacuum. It always follows what we most desire. In that aspect it is free. It will never follow what it does not most desire. In that it is not free to do what it does not want to do. Calvinism teaches that it cannot choose Christ because in our fallen state we never desire God above keeping our favorite sins.

I believe that the Holy Spirit draws every man to Christ at some point in every man's life (John 12:32). When they are drawn, they are enabled to receive Christ. If or when they receive Christ, they are given to Christ. One can be drawn and not be given. Being drawn means that they are offered motivation to receive Christ.

You are nevertheless producing a straw man argument when you state Calvinism as what it is not and argue from that position.

How is that a straw man?

Who is "you"?

@Josheb

That is a big straw man.
God saves some unconditionally, meaning His choice is not based on anything in them good or bad, on anything they will do or will not do. His reason is in Himself and all He tell us concerning that it is according to His own pleasure and purpose. But it is not arbitrary (based on nothing and random) and it cannot be. There is nothing, ever, arbitrary about God.

God sending some people to hell because He purposes to do so is even worse than Him arbitrarily sending people to hell. The only scenario in which it might be fair is if every man is given a choice in the matter of whether he will receive Christ and go to heaven or reject Christ and go to hell.

Also, Romans 10:9-13 contradicts your statement that God makes His choice not based on something that we might do.

The second fallacy produced as an argument that God unconditionally sends others to the lake of fire arbitrarily. That is where we are all headed, and justly so, unless God saves some. He sends no one there by His choice, it is justice that sends them there.

In unconditionally saving some, he must unconditionally condemn others. If not arbitrarily, then by His own purpose? Even worse!

 

[justbyfaith]

Calvinism is a theology. And that theology teaches that salvation is in Jesus alone, through who He is and the work that He did, alone, and is by grace and through faith, alone. And that faith is in this Jesus. And it comes by hearing the gospel and believing it. Not choosing it. Not deciding to choose it. But by believing it.

No, Calvinism teaches that we are saved by grace and faith comes afterward; contrary to Romans 5:2.