The Gift of Healing.

[Dave]

Yes, there are reasons why it happened that way. Just like there are reasons one with the gift of healing doesn't go walking into a hospital and heals everybody.

Lees

But yet, nobody was turned away because they didn't have enough faith. The man Jesus healed didn't even know who He was. There was nobody being excluded from the pool but that man, for physical limitations, and Jesus healed him Himself. I'm not sure how that makes your point that somehow overrides the scripture that I posted. Show me one person with the gift of healing that can do this...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

This verified the message and the messenger. As the scripture that I already provided shows. You cannot verify the message or the messenger if you cannot do that. Also keep in mind the point that I already made, that in that list of gifts, miracles was listed separate from various kinds of healings. That means they were actually doctors who had specific medical fields. Mabey one with broken bones. Another stomach illnesses, and so on. All this was gone over already.

Where do the faith healers go when they are sick?

Healer? Heal Thyself!

 

[Dave]

Charismatic covers a lot of there are moderate, extreme, and downright crazy congregations. But to link a theology Reformed Charismatic, I think they would have to be letting go of some of the systematics that went into Reformed theology. Kind of like a church called Reformed Lutheran I know of who had George Tiller serving in the church. He was shot dead in the lobby one Sunday. Tiller, in case you didn't know, was the country's number one baby killer, aborting fetuses in late term. You could see the smoke coming from the stack of his depository furnace, the ash falling on the city.

As to Piper, I have not read much of his work or listened to it. But I know he is considered a pillar, if you will, of Calvinism today.

I don't know how the two theologies could survive together. One is grounded in humanism, the other the Bible. I can't imagine how Charismatics could remain Charismatics within reformed circles, and vise versa. The only thing I can thing of is it would need to be a hijacking of a label. Like some Republicans in politics are called RINO's, 'Republican in name only'. This is one way our enemy likes to get a foot in the door and lead some estray. Making unity priority over truth. Kind of like the Catholic ecumenism. etc.

Dave

 

[Arial]

I don't know how the two theologies could survive together. One is grounded in humanism, the other the Bible. I can't imagine how Charismatics could remain Charismatics within reformed circles, and vise versa. The only thing I can thing of is it would need to be a hijacking of a label. Like some Republicans in politics are called RINO's, 'Republican in name only'. This is one way our enemy likes to get a foot in the door and lead some estray. Making unity priority over truth. Kind of like the Catholic ecumenism. etc.

Dave

I agree. It seems more a way to get young people and those with itching ears and the loaves and fishes people into the church building in hopes they will hear and believe the gospel. Now maybe they actually do teach and preach the actual Bible in an expository and doctrinal way. That I cannot say. But they are also compromising their own position imo.

 

[Lees]

But yet, nobody was turned away because they didn't have enough faith. The man Jesus healed didn't even know who He was. There was nobody being excluded from the pool but that man, for physical limitations, and Jesus healed him Himself. I'm not sure how that makes your point that somehow overrides the scripture that I posted. Show me one person with the gift of healing that can do this...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

This verified the message and the messenger. As the scripture that I already provided shows. You cannot verify the message or the messenger if you cannot do that. Also keep in mind the point that I already made, that in that list of gifts, miracles was listed separate from various kinds of healings. That means they were actually doctors who had specific medical fields. Mabey one with broken bones. Another stomach illnesses, and so on. All this was gone over already.

Where do the faith healers go when they are sick?

Healer? Heal Thyself!

All at the pool of Bethesda had faith. That is why they were there. Yet Jesus healed only one. This overides the silly comment you made about if one has the gift of healing why doesn't he go to a hospital and heal everyone?

Why couldn't Paul heal himself of his thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor. 12:7-8)

Why couldn't Paul heal Timothy? (1 Tim. 5:23)

Why couldn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? (Philippians 2:27)

Why couldn't Paul heal Trophimus? (2 Tim. 4:20)

Lees

 

[Lees]

We must keep in mind that 'spiritual gifts' given to each member in the Body of Christ is for one purpose only. That is to minister to the Body of Christ. They are not given for believers to go out into the world and display them like a circus show. They are not given to prove the message and the messenger. They are given for the edification of the Body. Read (1 Cor. 12:1-30)

And that 'Body' of gifted believers is displayed in the local churches. And it is within the confines of that local church, that local Body, that the believer is to function and exercise his gift. All the while under the watch and care of the elders or spiritual leaders in the church.

Again, a believer who thinks he has the gift of healing, if he goes into a hospital to heal everyone, is out of touch with God at the outset. For every believers gift is for the Body. And if a believer with the gift of healing asks his leaders if he can take his gift on the road, then the answer will be, or should be, no. Your gift is not a carnival show.

So it should be clear how important the Body is to the effectual working of the gifts. And if the Body is constantly taught and teaching that the gifts have ceased, do you think the gifts will be present? The believers still have them, but they are not openly displayed as, after all, they have ceased, they say.

Something to consider.

Lees

 

[Arial]

We must keep in mind that 'spiritual gifts' given to each member in the Body of Christ is for one purpose only. That is to minister to the Body of Christ. They are not given for believers to go out into the world and display them like a circus show. They are not given to prove the message and the messenger. They are given for the edification of the Body. Read (1 Cor. 12:1-30)

And that 'Body' of gifted believers is displayed in the local churches. And it is within the confines of that local church, that local Body, that the believer is to function and exercise his gift. All the while under the watch and care of the elders or spiritual leaders in the church.

Again, a believer who thinks he has the gift of healing, if he goes into a hospital to heal everyone, is out of touch with God at the outset. For every believers gift is for the Body. And if a believer with the gift of healing asks his leaders if he can take his gift on the road, then the answer will be, or should be, no. Your gift is not a carnival show.

So it should be clear how important the Body is to the effectual working of the gifts. And if the Body is constantly taught and teaching that the gifts have ceased, do you think the gifts will be present? The believers still have them, but they are not openly displayed as, after all, they have ceased, they say.

Something to consider.

Lees

Well that is as good an excuse as any I guess. Kind of like when Word of Faith teaches that faith is a force that activates God's power, and if doubt exists, it nullifies the faith. And then they quickly instill automatic doubt by saying faith won't work if there is sin in your life.

Did Jesus only heal believers or did he heal unbelievers. Did he only do it within congregations? Did the apostles verify the authority of their message with miracles to unbelievers or believers? Who would need the message of the gospel most verified? One who already believes it or one who does not?

When I had been a believer only a few months, my mother was diagnosed with cancer and was scheduled for surgery. I asked my pastor to come and pray with her the evening before. (He was always going on and on about all the people he healed and all the miracles in his life.) He asked if she had been saved. I said no. He said, then he could not pray for her.

I was shocked to put it mildly. But I remembered that that is not how Jesus looked at it at all. A great many of those he healed did not even know who he was, in fact I would say none did, as that had not been fully revealed. The miracles themselves were his witness. And I knew I could pray for her. So I sat with her and did so. She was seventy five at the time and I prayed for the surgery to be successful and to keep her safe. It was and she was with us for another 20 years with never a recurrence. But it was me sitting down and praying with her that was the instrument that broke the hold of Christian Science over her, that was the means of her hearing the voice of the Shepherd (not my voice) and following him.

The gift of healing was given to the early church as a witness. And there is no record or even implication that any but the apostles had it, or those appointed to plant churches. It was always accompanied by the gospel. The Bible does not make a big deal out of it at all. It was a witness that what they taught was from God. We do not need that witness in our gatherings anymore. The Bible is the witness.

Does that mean God no longer heals physical ailments? No. If anyone is healed by any means, it is of God. But to keep it into the category of what might be called miraculous (completely outside of the natural), it does not mean that he never does that either. But it is not common and it is not a gift that a person possesses, and it is not a gift to the church exclusively, or to all churches.

 

[Dave]

All at the pool of Bethesda had faith. That is why they were there. Yet Jesus healed only one. This overides the silly comment you made about if one has the gift of healing why doesn't he go to a hospital and heal everyone?

Why couldn't Paul heal himself of his thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor. 12:7-8)

Why couldn't Paul heal Timothy? (1 Tim. 5:23)

Why couldn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? (Philippians 2:27)

Why couldn't Paul heal Trophimus? (2 Tim. 4:20)

Lees

At the pool of Bethesda, it was unique circumstances, Lees. I think the fact that Jesus didn't even give His name should be a hint that He was trying to stay low key at that moment. Nobody was turned down. They had the pool. Only one didn't have access to it.

 

[Lees]

At the pool of Bethesda, it was unique circumstances, Lees. I think the fact that Jesus didn't even give His name should be a hint that He was trying to stay low key at that moment. Nobody was turned down. They had the pool. Only one didn't have access to it.

What does it matter that Jesus didn't give His name. He had the power to heal anyone at anytime...correct? So why didn't he heal all those poor people who wanted to be healed miraculously?

Everyone not healed by Christ that day was turned down. The one that was healed didn't ask him for it either.

Does it bother you that Christ could have healed them all but didn't?

Lees

 

[Dave]

We must keep in mind that 'spiritual gifts' given to each member in the Body of Christ is for one purpose only. That is to minister to the Body of Christ. They are not given for believers to go out into the world and display them like a circus show. They are not given to prove the message and the messenger. They are given for the edification of the Body. Read (1 Cor. 12:1-30)


And that 'Body' of gifted believers is displayed in the local churches. And it is within the confines of that local church, that local Body, that the believer is to function and exercise his gift. All the while under the watch and care of the elders or spiritual leaders in the church.

Again, a believer who thinks he has the gift of healing, if he goes into a hospital to heal everyone, is out of touch with God at the outset. For every believers gift is for the Body. And if a believer with the gift of healing asks his leaders if he can take his gift on the road, then the answer will be, or should be, no. Your gift is not a carnival show.

So it should be clear how important the Body is to the effectual working of the gifts. And if the Body is constantly taught and teaching that the gifts have ceased, do you think the gifts will be present? The believers still have them, but they are not openly displayed as, after all, they have ceased, they say.

Something to consider.

Lees

Hi Lees

Tongues are for unbelievers, remember? Paul said that. And the sign gifts were also to prove the message and the messenger, as scripture shows. All of these things were addressed right from the beginning and afterwards. From the second post, which was a continuation from the OP.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will

Even Jesus was confirmed by these same things

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

The signs confirmed the word and the person speaking it. No new revelation today. We have the faith once for all delivered. It seems very odd to me, to have to debate something that's not happening. But here we are.

Dave

 

[Dave]

Lees

I have written about this before.

I seen lives and faith destroyed from that doctrine. Your making promises that God never made. A man in my church was diagnosed with cancer. Him and his wife prayed fervently both day and night for two years believing, as instructed, if they had enough faith, he would be healed. After two years her husband died. She walked. Not just from that church, but from everything. It left her with only possible conclusion by that false doctrine, that her and her husbands faith wasn't good/pure enough. Unfortunately, this is not unique, but is actually the norm.

A good con needs one of two things from it's mark, greed, or desperation. It preys on both, but mostly desperation. People who are desperate will believe things that they normally wouldn't believe. For obvious reasons. The abortion industry functions on that same con, motivated by the desperation of the mark. And when the woman who aborted her baby finally realizes that she was lied to, it's too late. The mark then usually dies a slow death from shame after that. She reasons ' I'm smarter than that. How could I be so stupid.'. The weight of the guilt from what she had done and fallen for usually results in drug abuse, alcoholism, and just about every bad thing that a person can use to run from dealing with anxiety and pain from that.

The healing movement is the same. It promises things that God never promised. And when the matter falls short, these people, at the very least are left with a crippled faith, and at worst, no faith and an empty bank account too. Remember, they must have a pure faith, and that usually means giving all their money. Metaphorically speaking, they are walked into a gas chamber and told that it's a shower. Unfortunately, if the mark were given the choice, the metaphor might be the less painful option.

This is one of the charismatic favorite verses. This was right after the cross. Do you know who actually did this? The Apostles, and a few close associates, like the OP said. Do you know who is not doing this?

Mark 16:14-20 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

If you claim this verse is for all believers, then why aren't all healed?

It seems that your gift of healing is more elusive than bigfoot.

 

[Dave]

"Providence is God's faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that everything He has created achieves the end He has chosen. I'll read that again, Providence is God's faithful, moment-by-moment control over everything He has made to ensure that it achieves the end He has chosen."

"Now, what is a miracle? Another definition: In a Biblical sense a miracle is an extraordinary work of God that involves His immediate and unmistakable intervention in the physical realm in a way that contravenes natural processes. "

These are both quotes from Phil Johnson from this link. He goes into more detail if you want to read it. This is an excellent article over all. I would encourage everyone reading in this thread to take the time to read it. Maybe even printing a copy and filing it away for when the satellites stop working.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/combating_ ... eology.htm

"What is a miracle?

We tend to label things “miracles” when they really are not. Here is a Christian who has a financial need and he prays that the Lord will meet it. On the same day he receives a check of some money, a gift in the amount he needed--the exact amount. Did God answer his prayers? Absolutely! Was it a miracle? No, it was not. It was an act of providence. In this case God worked through normal means, orchestrating events through divine providence. So this is an important distinction to make. God normally answers our prayers through providence, not by giving us miracles.

A couple of years ago I was visiting India. I think of this because my friend Benji is here, who was there. He’s a doctor and he actually looked at me. While I was in India I awoke one morning with a severely swollen knee. I had surgery on this knee back in the 1980’s after an athletic injury, and there is almost no cartilage in my knee. And my schedule in India that year required a whole lot of walking and so that injured knee was a serious disability at the time and I was very concerned about it. So that particular day I noticed that the more I walked on it the more it became aggravated, swollen and sore. But if I rested it, it would immediately swell up and then when I went to move it, it would stiffen, and I felt like I was beginning to lose the use of my knee. It was the worse pain I have ever felt since my knee surgery itself, and it seemed to get so bad that I was afraid it would put an end to my ministry in India and I would have to come back home and get it fixed. So I prayed that the Lord would heal my knee, and the next morning when I got up my knee was almost completely back to normal. In fact, the swelling was gone; the pain was nearly gone; I could walk normally, and it was so normal that I got up, took a shower, and got dressed before I even remembered that my knee had been so badly swollen the day before. The Lord had answered my prayer and I didn’t even notice until I thought about it, and I thought, “Wow! My knee is back to normal!”

Now, did God heal my knee? Yes. Was that a miraculous healing? No. God may have providentially intervened to assure that the normal healing process went as quickly as possible or even sped it up some, but that’s not the same as a miracle. A miracle would be if God put the cartilage back in that knee--that would be a miracle. The kind of healing I received was again, an act of providence--a special act of providence. It was a work of God in answer to my prayer--I’m convinced. But, it was not a miracle! Those are important distinctions and I stress it because people cheapen the Biblical concept of miracles by referring to every answer to prayer as a miracle. It doesn’t diminish the power or the reality of God’s work one bit to acknowledge that He doesn’t normally, ordinarily work through miracles--He works by providence."

 

[Lees]

Hi Lees

Tongues are for unbelievers, remember? Paul said that. And the sign gifts were also to prove the message and the messenger, as scripture shows. All of these things were addressed right from the beginning and afterwards. From the second post, which was a continuation from the OP.

1 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will

Even Jesus was confirmed by these same things

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know--

The signs confirmed the word and the person speaking it. No new revelation today. We have the faith once for all delivered. It seems very odd to me, to have to debate something that's not happening. But here we are.

Dave

The gift of tongues is for believers, that can have meaning that affects unbelievers. I never said there were not sign gifts, or signs and wonders. What I said was that the Spiritual gifts given to the Body of Christ are not for signs and wonders. They are given to each believer to minister to the Body. See again (1 Cor. 12:1-31). Also (Eph. 4:15-16)

The reference is (2 Cor. 12:12), which has nothing to do with the gifts laid out in (1 Cor. 12-14). The gift of apostle to the Church has nothing to do with Paul being an apostle.

(Heb. 2:3-4) is not about the gifts given in (1 Cor. 12-14), (Rom. 12:3-8), or (Eph. 4:7-16). In fact, it is not even about the Church period. It is about the message that was 'first' spoken by the Lord. Which message was the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Church hadn't even started yet. And that message was to Israel to confirm the promises made by the fathers.

(Rom. 15:8) "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minster of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers." Has nothing to do with the Church or the gifts given to each member of the Body of Christ.

I never said there was any new written revelation given by God today. You're not debating with me concerning that. You're just debating yourself.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Lees

I have written about this before.

I seen lives and faith destroyed from that doctrine. Your making promises that God never made. A man in my church was diagnosed with cancer. Him and his wife prayed fervently both day and night for two years believing, as instructed, if they had enough faith, he would be healed. After two years her husband died. She walked. Not just from that church, but from everything. It left her with only possible conclusion by that false doctrine, that her and her husbands faith wasn't good/pure enough. Unfortunately, this is not unique, but is actually the norm.

A good con needs one of two things from it's mark, greed, or desperation. It preys on both, but mostly desperation. People who are desperate will believe things that they normally wouldn't believe. For obvious reasons. The abortion industry functions on that same con, motivated by the desperation of the mark. And when the woman who aborted her baby finally realizes that she was lied to, it's too late. The mark then usually dies a slow death from shame after that. She reasons ' I'm smarter than that. How could I be so stupid.'. The weight of the guilt from what she had done and fallen for usually results in drug abuse, alcoholism, and just about every bad thing that a person can use to run from dealing with anxiety and pain from that.

The healing movement is the same. It promises things that God never promised. And when the matter falls short, these people, at the very least are left with a crippled faith, and at worst, no faith and an empty bank account too. Remember, they must have a pure faith, and that usually means giving all their money. Metaphorically speaking, they are walked into a gas chamber and told that it's a shower. Unfortunately, if the mark were given the choice, the metaphor might be the less painful option.

This is one of the charismatic favorite verses. This was right after the cross. Do you know who actually did this? The Apostles, and a few close associates, like the OP said. Do you know who is not doing this?

Mark 16:14-20 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

If you claim this verse is for all believers, then why aren't all healed?

It seems that your gift of healing is more elusive than bigfoot.

Actually that is not true. What promises have I stated that are not given in Scripture.

Nice story, almost brought a tear to my eye...not. Save them for someone else. Personal stories can be made up and there is no ability to validate.

So, you don't believe (Mark 16:14-20)? No matter. These are not the 'gifts of the Spirit' given to the Body of Christ, to minister to the Body.

Let's see, are you saying everyone you ever prayed for healing, were healed. How about your whole church? Has your Church ever prayed for healing for someone but they died anyway? Gee...what happened? Was the one needing healing misled? Did you mislead them saying God can heal. So why do you pray to God for healing? Or do you?

Lees

 

[Dave]

Nice story, almost brought a tear to my eye...not. Save them for someone else. Personal stories can be made up and there is no ability to validate.

Lees

Funny, that you don't see the irony in your statement here. I think our conversation is over Lees, I tried.

Peace.

 

[Lees]

Funny, that you don't see the irony in your statement here. I think our conversation is over Lees, I tried.

Peace.

No, what's funny is you running without answering my questions. In my posts (32) and (33) I responded to your statements giving Scripture when needed to support.

You in turn do not respond to post #(32) at all. And though I stated in post #(33) why (Mark 16) is not about the 'gifts of the Spirit' laid out in (1 Cor. 12-14), (Rom. 12) and (Eph. 4), you choose to ignore.

Then in post #(33), I asked you questions concerning your view of 'healing'. And you choose to ignore.

Instead you just focus on my statement regarding your 'personal expericences'. And for that you say 'our converstation is over'.

Then you say, 'I tried'. Just what is that supposed to mean? Is it supposed to paint you as 'good' and trying to reach such a misdirected soul as Lees? But you just couldn't do it? Or, does it mean you tried to pull the wool over Lees eyes and just couldn't do it?

And for what I have presented above, your last statment of 'peace' is empty.

My opinion.

Lees

 

[Hazelelponi]

I never heard of that. Are you sure that isn't that an oxymoron?

Dave

Does cessationist mean?

Because we still have the Holy Spirit... How do you see the role of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant?

 

[Dave]

Does cessationist mean?

Because we still have the Holy Spirit... How do you see the role of the Holy Spirit under the New Covenant?

Hi Hazel

Cessationist is what people are called who believe that the sign gifts have ceased. Namely languages/tongues (the miraculous part, obviously), healing through human agency, and just miracles in general. It's not that these things cannot happen, but the supernatural sign gifts had a specific reason for existing. Any byproduct of those gifts was to keep them Biblical (edifying) for the Church. Those who claim that they are for today have redefined them as primarily created for the byproduct purpose, not the sign. And claim that seeing them in general, not through human agency, is the same gift. Which it isn't.

Those who are not cessationist claim that the lists of gifts in scripture are the only gifts. They don't recognize that the lists are pointing to the fact that all good comes from God, who alone is good, and thus are gifts. That's why the lists are different from each other.

Off of the top of my head, the Holy Spirit in the NT is called the Comforter (John 14:26), Teacher (1Corinthians 2:10-16), Advocate, and He empowers believers to overcome sin. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be more under His control, less flesh, more Spirit.

Dave

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi Hazel

Cessationist is what people are called who believe that the sign gifts have ceased. Namely languages/tongues (the miraculous part, obviously), healing through human agency, and just miracles in general. It's not that these things cannot happen, but the supernatural sign gifts had a specific reason for existing. Any byproduct of those gifts was to keep them Biblical (edifying) for the Church. Those who claim that they are for today have redefined them as primarily created for the byproduct purpose, not the sign. And claim that seeing them in general, not through human agency, is the same gift. Which it isn't.

Those who are not cessationist claim that the lists of gifts in scripture are the only gifts. They don't recognize that the lists are pointing to the fact that all good comes from God, who alone is good, and thus are gifts. That's why the lists are different from each other.

Off of the top of my head, the Holy Spirit in the NT is called the Comforter (John 14:26), Teacher (1Corinthians 2:10-16), Advocate, and He empowers believers to overcome sin. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be more under His control, less flesh, more Spirit.

Dave

Okay thank you... I have not been understanding the use of the word then.

 

[Dave]

All at the pool of Bethesda had faith. That is why they were there. Yet Jesus healed only one. This overides the silly comment you made about if one has the gift of healing why doesn't he go to a hospital and heal everyone?

Why couldn't Paul heal himself of his thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor. 12:7-8)

Why couldn't Paul heal Timothy? (1 Tim. 5:23)

Why couldn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? (Philippians 2:27)

Why couldn't Paul heal Trophimus? (2 Tim. 4:20)

Lees

For the sake of being thorough.

Contrary to popular Charismatic/Pentecostal belief, the thorn in Paul's flesh was not a physical ailment, rather, as that passage explains very clearly, it's a fallen spirit that God allowed to torment Paul, called "a messenger from Satan", as Paul says was allowed by God to afflict him "to keep him humble".

1 Tim 5:23, and 1 Tim 2:27 were dealt with in the second post. And Phil 2:27, Epaphroditus had a ministry to fulfill, so God healed him for His purposes, not Epaphroditus'. "For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.". And it probably was not even miraculous. Just providence.

Dave

 

[Lees]

For the sake of being thorough.

Contrary to popular Charismatic/Pentecostal belief, the thorn in Paul's flesh was not a physical ailment, rather, as that passage explains very clearly, it's a fallen spirit that God allowed to torment Paul, called "a messenger from Satan", as Paul says was allowed by God to afflict him "to keep him humble".

1 Tim 5:23, and 1 Tim 2:27 were dealt with in the second post. And Phil 2:27, perhaps you should read that one again. He had a ministry to fulfill, so God healed him for His purposes, not Epaphroditus'. "For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.". And it probably was not even miraculous. Just providence.

Dave

Point being Paul couldn't heal everybody. Other factors come in to play. Same is true with any believer who has the gift of healing. It's absurd to think he can 'heal anybody at anytime'. And foolish.

So go back and respond to posts #(32) and (33).

Lees