The external and internal call.

[Carbon]

I believe, concerning this calling there is a distinction between an external and an inward call.
They both come from God, by means of the gospel, they pertain to the same matters and are presented equally to all.
They both are addressed to humans who by nature are the same. However, I believe they both are distinguishable.

The external call functions only by means of the word and the Spirit does join Himself in common Illumination and historical faith. Consider, Hebrews 6:4, For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,...........

The internal calling however, penetrates the very heart of man, powerfully illuminating it with wonderous light revealing mysteries to the man. And powerfully inclines the will to embrace those mysteries in Christ, and to the obedience of faith.
Consider: It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45.

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Eph 1:18


Thoughts, comments?

 

[Josheb]

Thoughts, comments?

With the possible exception of the John text, those verses are about already saved people, not unsaved people. Is this op's commentary on the internal and external "calls" supposed to be soteriologically about how people a saved, and if so then is it intended to be about how a person is converted to Christ, brought from death to life, or made regenerate?

The John text is couched in those who have been drawn (hauled) to Jesus by the Father and those believing Jesus is the bread of life and having eaten the manna, his flesh.


I'd also add scripture gives us at least five ways we are "called," or otherwise know of God's existence: creation, the moral code within every human, the written word, the incarnate word, and the Holy Spirit. Paul makes it abundantly clear, for example, that all creation testifies to God's existence and power but people deny it. Would you consider that witness a form of (external) call?

 

[Carbon]

With the possible exception of the John text, those verses are about already saved people, not unsaved people.

I disagree. Do you believe Hebrews 6:4 and Ephesians 1:18 are about saved people?
Interesting.

Is this op's commentary on the internal and external "calls" supposed to be soteriologically about how people a saved,

I'm mainly discussing how there is an internal and an external call. But yes, it is of the Ordo Salutis.

and if so then is it intended to be about how a person is converted to Christ, brought from death to life, or made regenerate?

Naturally.

 

[Carbon]

The John text is couched in those who have been drawn (hauled) to Jesus by the Father and those believing Jesus is the bread of life and having eaten the manna, his flesh.

Been or being drawn?

 

[Josheb]

Do you believe Hebrews 6:4 and Ephesians 1:18 are about saved people?
Interesting.

Yes. They were written by a saved person to saved people and the entire letter was written to the saved people. The verse in question explicitly states the people about whom it was written had been "previously enlightened," "partakers of the Holy Spirit," and renewed. This is the necessary implication of the word "again" in verse 6. If they hadn't been renewed in the first place there couldn't be an "again."

The classic Calvinist pov is once saved always saved and on any such occasion that anyoone falls away they were either never saved in the first place or they are saved but living a fruitless life (ala 1 Cor. 3:15).

I'm mainly discussing how there is an internal and an external call. But yes, it is of the Ordo Salutis.

Prior to conversion, during, or after? Or all three?

Naturally.

Then that is a post-conversion calling. You might want to amend the op to clarify that matter (since you have the ability to overcome the time limited for editing a post ).

Been or being drawn?

If they've already been converted to Christ, then they have already been called and hauled and Christ is then living in them and they in him. In fact, according to verses like Gal. 2:20 the old person that was called and hauled no longer lives; s/he's been crucified and someone new exists in their place.

 

[Carbon]

Yes. They were written by a saved person to saved people and the entire letter was written to the saved people. The verse in question explicitly states the people about whom it was written had been "previously enlightened," "partakers of the Holy Spirit," and renewed. This is the necessary implication of the word "again" in verse 6. If they hadn't been renewed in the first place there couldn't be an "again."

I can see where our differences are. I disagree these people in Hebrews 6:4 were ever saved.
I believe scripture is written to believers, along with this teaching as many other teachings.

These left because they are not of us, if they were, they would have remained. 1 John.

 

[Carbon]

The classic Calvinist pov is once saved always saved

Actually, you are incorrect here. The classic teaching is the perseverance of the Saints. There is a difference.

and on any such occasion that anyoone falls away they were either never saved in the first place

Well, why else would they fall away? Or do you believe someone can lose their salvation?

or they are saved but living a fruitless life (ala 1 Cor. 3:15).

 

[Carbon]

Yes. They were written by a saved person to saved people and the entire letter was written to the saved people. The verse in question explicitly states the people about whom it was written had been "previously enlightened," "partakers of the Holy Spirit," and renewed. This is the necessary implication of the word "again" in verse 6. If they hadn't been renewed in the first place there couldn't be an "again."

Then how would you work that out with this passage by Paul in Philippians?

Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12.

The classic Calvinist pov is once saved always saved and on any such occasion that anyoone falls away they were either never saved in the first place or they are saved but living a fruitless life (ala 1 Cor. 3:15).

Instead of throwing that at you, (they were never saved in the first place) look at it from this angle. Above in Phil 3:12.

 

[Josheb]

Actually, you are incorrect here. The classic teaching is the perseverance of the Saints. There is a difference.

I will concede that point for now.

Well, why else would they fall away? Or do you believe someone can lose their salvation?

That depends on how one defines falling away. Some folks read that to say they fell away from their salvation instead of falling away from Jesus. The two are not the same and the text does not state they fell away from salvation. Assuming they were once saved and then no longer saved runs into a variety of problems beginning with the human ability to defeat God and make worthless the blood of Christ. Those who fall away remaining saved but living fruitless prevents the conflict so no explanation for a non-existent conflict is necessary. Since it's a biased reading of scripture that concludes the saved lost their salvation the solution lies in discarding the bias and trust scripture as written in its silence.

If they were saints then they will persevere because God sees salvation through to the end. If they were not saints Hebrews 6:4 does not apply (they were not partakers of the Spirit).

Then how would you work that out with this passage by Paul in Philippians?

Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12.

NO, we do not jump around from proof-texted verse to proof-texted verse without resolving the first proof-texted verse. I am not going to chase you around the thread from singled-out-verse to singled-out-verse like chasing a squirrel around. Stick to the Hebrews 6:4 verse you chose and examine it exegetically with its surrounding text and its inherently provided context before considering other texts and then, if we do look at other texts, examine them in the same exact way. Hebrews 6 explicitly states they have been partakers of the Holy Spirit. The letter was written to those to whom God had spoken in the last days, those who had been appointed heirs, those who had inherited salvation (chapter 1). Among those in that group were some who'd partaken of the Spirit and who "have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away..." That is a completely different condition than Paul having partaken of the Holy Spirit but not having grasped all things or become perfect.

Instead of throwing that at you, (they were never saved in the first place) look at it from this angle. Above in Phil 3:12.

Not until we come to an agreement regarding what Hebrews actually states and what that can be made to say because Hebrews 6:4 cannot exegetically be made to say Philippians 3:12.


If saved God, who is the author and finisher of the saints' faith will finish what He started. Monergism means God is the sole causal agent of salvation from sin. That one point is what separates monergism form all other doctrines of salvation. The Hebrews 6:4 persons who partook of the Holy Spirit and then fell away was either never saved in the first place or fell away in a manner where their salvation would still persevere but "it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." Note the text does not state they'd lost their renewal. It simply states they can't be renewed again. Not only can they not be renewed again, but that lack is specifically specified to apply to their repentance. Scripture has a lot to say about those who've partaken of the Holy Spirit who do not and will not repent. Scripture says much more about those who have not partaken of the Holy Spirit and don't repent but those who have not partaken of the Holy Spirit and those who have are not the same group of people. Don't compare apples to oranges, unrepentant dead corpses to unrepentant living ones. At the risk fo committing the same mistake I just asked you not to repeat.....

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

If that adulterer was not repentant, he was to be handed over to Satan. Paul had already decided the matter and committed to doing exactly that. To what end? "So that his spirit may be saved..." Nowhere does Paul ever say the man was not saved. The letter was written "to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours," and nowhere does Paul ever say that adulterer was not a member of the ecclesia, not snctified, not a saint, and/or did not call upon the name of our Lord Jesus. We have plenty of reason to consider the premise given what scripture states about adulterers, but none of that is applied to the man in question. Instead, remarkably, we have Paul handing the person over to Satan so his spirit will be saved in the day of the Lord. Perseverance of the saint.

I disagree these people in Hebrews 6:4 were ever saved. I believe scripture is written to believers, along with this teaching as many other teachings.

Okay. The problem is the verse is rendered to be in conflict with what is otherwise explicitly stated in the larger text and no case has yet been presented definitively proving the Hebrews 6:4 people were not saved. How can a person possess a foundation of faith toward God and the resurrection of the dead, been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, who has partaken of the Spirit, implicitly been renewed, not be saved?

That person can be lacking in fruit.

Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

They were either never saved or saved (and taking in the rain) but not bearing fruit.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

If building on the foundation of Christ a person can still get burned. Everything we do will be tested. The saved person whose works bear nothing emerges charred, covered in soot, but still saved. Few things in scripture are more fruitless than a lack of repentance.

If that does not make sense to you then I invite you to make the case for the Hebrews 6 person who possesses all the conditions list in that passage not being saved.

 

[Arial]

@Carbon @Josheb

My view on Heb 6:4-8.

I have come to see the "once been enlightened". "tasted of the heavenly gift", "shared (ESV) in the Holy Spirit", and "the powers of the age to come", to refer to persons who have been a part of the visible church community in close proximity to these things, experienced the blessings, witnessed the power (signs wonders that accompanied the first century church), and gave every appearance of faith, but showed they did not by walking away, in the sense of denying it. (Contempt.) In what follows in verses 7 and 8 "For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles , it is worthless and hear to being cursed, and it end is to be burned." I find it to most likely be speaking of the seed that fell on rocky ground or among the thorns in the parable of the sower.

As such, the author is giving a stern warning to persevere in producing the fruit of salvation, and not lose heart. Although there are instances of someone having appeared to truly believe, and then later having contempt for this salvation, in many ways I think this is being presented as an "if" hypothetical. This I get from verse 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things---things that belong to salvation." Which resolves the issue of Hebrews being written to believers, but verses 4-6 not actually applying to them.

 

[Josheb]

@Carbon @Josheb

My view on Heb 6:4-8.

I have come to see the "once been enlightened". "tasted of the heavenly gift", "shared (ESV) in the Holy Spirit", and "the powers of the age to come", to refer to persons who have been a part of the visible church community in close proximity to these things, experienced the blessings, witnessed the power (signs wonders that accompanied the first century church), and gave every appearance of faith, but showed they did not by walking away, in the sense of denying it. (Contempt.) In what follows in verses 7 and 8 "For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles , it is worthless and hear to being cursed, and it end is to be burned." I find it to most likely be speaking of the seed that fell on rocky ground or among the thorns in the parable of the sower.

As such, the author is giving a stern warning to persevere in producing the fruit of salvation, and not lose heart. Although there are instances of someone having appeared to truly believe, and then later having contempt for this salvation, in many ways I think this is being presented as an "if" hypothetical. This I get from verse 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things---things that belong to salvation." Which resolves the issue of Hebrews being written to believers, but verses 4-6 not actually applying to them.

I remain in disagreement but am open to persuasion.

While it may not be correct of me to do so, I liken this matter to the problem arising in synergism's "faith precedes regeneration," when they say not only has God made a space for a free choice and cleared away any obstacles to choosing salvation, but God has also revealed Himself to the unregenerate sin-enslaved sinner and made Himself known. If that is true then where are these people who know God, have had God reveal Himself to them specifically in a salvific manner but choose not to be saved? Where are these God-knowing unsaved people? Where are they mentioned in scripture? Where are they in our everyday observation and experience? There are unsaved not-knowing-God people and there are saved knowing-God-and-known-by-God people. Where is the middle, or intermediate-state person who knows God* but is not saved.

Doctrinally speaking (from the Cal pov), there are only the saved and the unsaved and anyone who has actually partaken of the Holy Spirit is saved - especially if the "partaking" is considered regeneration. In the Hebrews epistle the partaking of the Holy Spirit is contrasted with the partaking of milk and not being accustomed to the word of righteousness because he/they are infants (Heb. 5:13). They are to leave the "elementary teaching about Christ" and press on to maturity (presumably in Christ). Paul would do that if God permitted. If they've been partaking of milk, they are either saved and not bearing fruit or not saved at all. If not saved then how can all the conditions listed apply to them?


Perhaps the similarity with an intermediate state is not what is being asserted by either of you, but it looks that way from my reading of the posts given the conditions specified in the larger Hebrews narrative.








*God is not merely known about but known. There is a big difference between knowing about someone and actually knowing them. These synergisms claim God is known and the knowing is necessary to a free-will decision for or against salvation.
.

 

[Arial]

While it may not be correct of me to do so, I liken this matter to the problem arising in synergism's "faith precedes regeneration," when they say not only has God made a space for a free choice and cleared away any obstacles to choosing salvation, but God has also revealed Himself to the unregenerate sin-enslaved sinner and made Himself known.

I am viewing what I said on Heb 6 from a monergistic pov, in which case I am not even entertaining the concept of the tension presented. The reason being that salvation is not applied by what our head knows only, but what our head knows entering our hearts. And this knowledge entering our heart is an act of God. At the same time He does not hide the gospel from anyone. That is the outward call, and it is given because faith and trust in God----which only comes through faith in the person and work of Christ----is commanded and demanded of everyone. The "many are called but few are chosen." When Jesus says "Believe in me." that is a command and that command applies to everyone and from all time, past , present, and future. Also, His existence is made known in creation itself, but that is not the same thing as knowing Him.

If that is true then where are these people who know God, have had God reveal Himself to them specifically in a salvific manner but choose not to be saved? Where are these God-knowing unsaved people? Where are they mentioned in scripture? Where are they in our everyday observation and experience? There are unsaved not-knowing-God people and there are saved knowing-God-and-known-by-God people. Where is the middle, or intermediate-state person who knows God* but is not saved.

Again knowing of God and knowing God are not the same thing. Many people believe God exists who have not been saved. The Israelites, for example, could know Him through the Law and that covenant relationship. And many of them still did not know Him or they would have remained faithful. Since the resurrection and ascension of Christ, the only way to know Him, the only way to Him, is faith in the person and work of Jesus. (P.S. Sometimes I don't read the small print. I just noticed you made that distinction at the bottom of your post.) In which case, I am going to need to presume here, that you are considering those mentioned in Heb 6:4-6 know God in a saving sense. And that is what I am disagreeing with, for the simple reason that it would be a direct contradiction to many scriptures that say otherwise. Not the least of which is that Jesus said He would lose none that the Father gives Him. So if they walk away, God had not given them to Jesus. So they have a lot of head knowledge, had acquiesced to the things they heard and saw, participated in them, but it was a passive belief. It was not imbedded in their heart. They had not been regenerated---given a new heart.

They are to leave the "elementary teaching about Christ" and press on to maturity (presumably in Christ). Paul would do that if God permitted. If they've been partaking of milk, they are either saved and not bearing fruit or not saved at all. If not saved then how can all the conditions listed apply to them?

They may have not been bearing fruit and not growing, but I do not think the words of 4-6 were being applied to them. It was a warning to persevere and grow up.

Perhaps the similarity with an intermediate state is not what is being asserted by either of you, but it looks that way from my reading of the posts given the conditions specified in the larger Hebrews narrative.

I don't think there is an intermediate state to being saved. However I do think in some cases, and in a sense all cases, God is working in the circumstances of a person's life leading them towards Christ, and this is not regeneration, but in God's timing arrives there. This can and is done in uncountable, even unknowable ways so to say it looks like this or that is impossible. But sometimes it may be simple exposure to the gospel over time. And in fact the bygone days that was something that occurred in families who attended church where the truths of the Bible were actually preached, and at some point a person either believed it or didn't believe it (a good case for the Heb 6:4-6 being as I said .Most likely the majority could not even pinpoint when that happened.

 

[Josheb]

They may have not been bearing fruit and not growing, but I do not think the words of 4-6 were being applied to them. It was a warning to persevere and grow up.

A plant that does not grow up does not produce fruit.

Hebrews 6:7-8
For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Genesis 1:11-12
Then God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them"; and it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God saw that it was good.

Matthew 13:3-9, 18-23
And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, "Behold, the sower went out to sow; and as he sowed, some seeds fell beside the road, and the birds came and ate them up. Others fell on the rocky places, where they did not have much soil; and immediately they sprang up, because they had no depth of soil. But when the sun had risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. Others fell among the thorns, and the thorns came up and choked them out. And others fell on the good soil and yielded a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty. He who has ears, let him hear. ...........Hear then the parable of the sower. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."

Plants that do not grow to maturity do not produce any crop.

Luke 6:43-44
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.

1 Corinthians 15:35-37
But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

The theme of productivity runs through the entirety of scripture. Jesus is the first fruit. Atonement, being much greater than merely a payment for sin, addresses the damage and loss incurred by sin, in addition to paying that debt.

 

[Carbon]

I will concede that point for now.

OKay

That depends on how one defines falling away.

We're talking about salvation here, aren't we?

If they were saints then they will persevere because God sees salvation through to the end. If they were not saints Hebrews 6:4 does not apply (they were not partakers of the Spirit).

Well here ya go brother, perseverance of the saints.

 

[Carbon]

NO, we do not jump around from proof-texted verse to proof-texted verse without resolving the first proof-texted verse. I am not going to chase you around the thread from singled-out-verse to singled-out-verse like chasing a squirrel around. Stick to the Hebrews 6:4 verse you chose and examine it exegetically with its surrounding text and its inherently provided context before considering other texts and then, if we do look at other texts, examine them in the same exact way. Hebrews 6 explicitly states they have been partakers of the Holy Spirit. The letter was written to those to whom God had spoken in the last days, those who had been appointed heirs, those who had inherited salvation (chapter 1). Among those in that group were some who'd partaken of the Spirit and who "have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away..." That is a completely different condition than Paul having partaken of the Holy Spirit but not having grasped all things or become perfect.

I think you will find I am all about context. I am also sola scriptura, scripture interprets scripture. If you think I am roaming around trying to put together something to prove you wrong? Let me tell you something friend, I do not have to be right all the time. If you do not want to answer a simple question which I think helps in interpretation, (since scripture interprets scripture) then don't, but don't accuse me of prof-texting and chasing a squirrel around. If you cannot consider what I say as another Christian, then go find someone else who will debate you according to your rules.

Not until we come to an agreement regarding what Hebrews actually states and what that can be made to say because Hebrews 6:4 cannot exegetically be made to say Philippians 3:12.

First, I honestly do not believe you see the relation or how Phil 3:12 relates.

But for now, what does enlightened mean to you? What do you think it means in Hebrews? Born again or told and heard the gospel?
How about tasted the heavenly gift?

Since you would like to keep directly in the passage, go ahead, and answer these.

 

[Arial]

A plant that does not grow up does not produce fruit.

I did not mean they were bearing no fruit. And people aren't actually plants. They were simply immature but that does not mean they were not saved. Many Christians never grow to maturity.

 

[Carbon]

@Carbon @Josheb

My view on Heb 6:4-8.

I have come to see the "once been enlightened". "tasted of the heavenly gift", "shared (ESV) in the Holy Spirit", and "the powers of the age to come", to refer to persons who have been a part of the visible church community in close proximity to these things, experienced the blessings, witnessed the power (signs wonders that accompanied the first century church), and gave every appearance of faith, but showed they did not by walking away, in the sense of denying it. (Contempt.) In what follows in verses 7 and 8 "For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles , it is worthless and hear to being cursed, and it end is to be burned." I find it to most likely be speaking of the seed that fell on rocky ground or among the thorns in the parable of the sower.

As such, the author is giving a stern warning to persevere in producing the fruit of salvation, and not lose heart. Although there are instances of someone having appeared to truly believe, and then later having contempt for this salvation, in many ways I think this is being presented as an "if" hypothetical. This I get from verse 9 Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things---things that belong to salvation." Which resolves the issue of Hebrews being written to believers, but verses 4-6 not actually applying to them.

Excellent!

 

[Carbon]

Okay. The problem is the verse is rendered to be in conflict with what is otherwise explicitly stated in the larger text and no case has yet been presented definitively proving the Hebrews 6:4 people were not saved.

We will get there.

How can a person possess a foundation of faith toward God and the resurrection of the dead, been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, who has partaken of the Spirit, implicitly been renewed, not be saved?

That person can be lacking in fruit.

What is enlightened according to your belief?
What is tasted the heavenly gift according to your belief?

You make these statements, now define what you're trying to prove.

 

[Josheb]

We're talking about salvation here, aren't we?

We are talking about those in Hebrews 6:4 who Hebrews 6:6 states had fallen away.

If those in Hebrews 6 who fell away were saved and their falling away means the lost the salvation, they actually really possessed then that makes perseverance incorrect, and for those that think losing any on letter in the acronym proves fatal to the whole, that means the entire TULIP fails. Alternatively, if they were really, truly, factually, actually saved (just trying to emphasize the point and cover the bases ) and perseverance is correct then the falling away is about something else, some other kind of falling away. If they were not saved EVER then from what they fell away should be identified because if they were not saved, then they were not falling away from salvation. They weren't falling away from a salvation they never possessed to begin with. Maybe they were falling away from potential salvation, or the prospect of salvation.... but, monergistically speaking, if they are among the elect ordained from eternity then their salvation is inevitable and if they weren't among the elct then not only will they never be saved but we're back to defining what it is they were falling away from.

Well here ya go brother, perseverance of the saints.

Yes, if the fallen away people were saved then they would, in the end, persevere. If they were never saved then none of the attributes listed in the larger passage apply.


Post 3 states a disagreement with the Hebrews 6 falling away folks' salvation. Post 6 reiterates the belief they were not saved. I explicitly asked the case for that position be made.

I think you will find I am all about context. I am also sola scriptura, scripture interprets scripture.

I have yet to witness that in this thread. What the posts actual show is two verses removed from their surrounding text and their respective contexts and then put together to "interpret" one another. That has actually happened in the the thread and that fact is objectively verifiable by any reader (al or not), not a matter of my personal opinion.

If you think I am roaming around trying to put together something to prove you wrong? Let me tell you something friend...

How about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

First, I honestly do not believe you see the relation or how Phil 3:12 relates.

How about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

For the record: I did not say Phil. 3:12 did not relate. What I did say is I was not discussing the verse until the Hebrews text had been properly exegeted. So please do not put words into my posts I did not write.

But for now, what does enlightened mean to you? What do you think it means in Hebrews? Born again or told and heard the gospel?
How about tasted the heavenly gift?

I have already answered those questions and asked you to make the case for the position the Hebrews 6:4 people were not saved. It is, after all, I did not write this op. My posts could be incorrect but that would not make the op correct.

Since you would like to keep directly in the passage, go ahead, and answer these.

How about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?




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[Carbon]

Doctrinally speaking (from the Cal pov), there are only the saved and the unsaved and anyone who has actually partaken of the Holy Spirit is saved

That's incorrect. Perhaps you're speaking for yourself?