The Baptism of John

[BillyBob65]

I am sorry for the double messed up post apparently I got in a hurry and didn't see the errors before submitting and in effort to edit messed it up even more so sorry hope you all can forgive me.

 

[Arial]

How does the baptism that Christ is to baptize with become t"he insufficiency of Christ."

If it takes water baptism to remit sins the work of Christ on the cross was insufficient.

He said he was told 16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. so that was most likely when he also received the holy ghost per Acts 2:38

If you are satisfied with "most likely" so be it. It means nothing to me. Frankly, I am bored with the receptiveness of your posts. Maybe try a different thread and topic for a change?

 

[Arial]

I have show other scriptures that support it is FOR the remission of sin the washing away of sin the calling on the name of the Lord but in all the biblical proof some still try to say that is not what it means even thought that is what was recorded because we can not make that fit our teaching of faith alone.

Think about what your carelessness in handling the word of God and then teaching from that carelessness means for people who are genuine believers but have not had the opportunity to be formally baptized. My mother came to Christ very late in life and was unable to physically endure baptism. Your view says it made no difference that she believed in Christ, her sins had not been remitted.

I, myself, was a believer for a number of years before baptism became an option. Your view says it made no difference that I belonged to Christ through faith. I was still a child of hell bearing the weight of my sins on my own shoulders.

Have a little sensibility!

 

[CrowCross]

In Acts 9 it doesn't say he received the spirit at the same time he received his sight

It's pretty much implied. Why doesn't the bible say Ananias failed when he laid hands on Paul? Why even mention it?

In fact Paul was saved when he was talking to Jesus.

 

[BillyBob65]

If it takes water baptism to remit sins the work of Christ on the cross was insufficient.

If you are satisfied with "most likely" so be it. It means nothing to me. Frankly, I am bored with the receptiveness of your posts. Maybe try a different thread and topic for a change?

Look at the story of Naaman he was told to dip seven times in the Jordan river in order to be relieved of leprosy and thought it was not the way but he did not get the healing until he submitted to what God commanded. Was it the water that healed him? No it was the submission to Gods will the water was only the vessel God chose to work through.

I am more than sure it was when he received the spirit and have shown many scripture to support it but you refuse to let the scriptures show you the truth. I just am not trying to be so blunt but trying to get you to consider the scriptures which speak of this and let you come to the truth with the spirits help'

 

[BillyBob65]

It's pretty much implied. Why doesn't the bible say Ananias failed when he laid hands on Paul? Why even mention it?

In fact Paul was saved when he was talking to Jesus.

See this is blatant miss use of scripture no where in the 2 rendering of this story does it ever say that Paul was saved when he meet Jesus on the road. All scriptures in both readings of this story say that Jesus sent Paul to Ananias to be told what he needs to do. Paul as everyone else had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and Paul says it was to wash away his sin. You are not arguing with me but with the divine word of God.

 

[BillyBob65]

Think about what your carelessness in handling the word of God and then teaching from that carelessness means for people who are genuine believers but have not had the opportunity to be formally baptized. My mother came to Christ very late in life and was unable to physically endure baptism. Your view says it made no difference that she believed in Christ, her sins had not been remitted.

I, myself, was a believer for a number of years before baptism became an option. Your view says it made no difference that I belonged to Christ through faith. I was still a child of hell bearing the weight of my sins on my own shoulders.

Have a little sensibility!

I did not write the scriptures or give them to be recorded I just submit to what has been given so it is not my view but that of our heavenly Farther.
He is also the one to have these words recorded
Mathew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It is my prayer that all come to the truth of Gods will and submit accordingly. I have an obligation to my Farther to correct error of his word to save lives for God does not want any to perish but is a just God and gives all time to study to show thyself approved.

 

[CrowCross]

See this is blatant miss use of scripture no where in the 2 rendering of this story does it ever say that Paul was saved when he meet Jesus on the road. All scriptures in both readings of this story say that Jesus sent Paul to Ananias to be told what he needs to do. Paul as everyone else had to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and Paul says it was to wash away his sin. You are not arguing with me but with the divine word of God.

Your argument is it is water that washes away sin....and not the blood of Christ.

 

[BillyBob65]

Your argument is it is water that washes away sin....and not the blood of Christ.

No that is what you are assigning to me that is a false characterization. I have said over and over it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin water is just the vessel in which God uses to do the transformation.

 

[Arial]

I did not write the scriptures or give them to be recorded I just submit to what has been given so it is not my view but that of our heavenly Farther.

Strange isn't it that no matter how many times others show you from the very same scriptures put within its context, and the many, many times Scripture declares that we are justified through faith (sins remitted) and you are shown these scriptures, you no longer consider that as the view of your heavenly Father? Strange too, that one would consider themselves the sole determiner of truth.

Strangest of all is that it is common logic that not all people are able to be baptized in water for whatever reason and if sins are not remitted until that takes place, the faith of those individuals is null and void (according to you); appalling that anyone claiming union with Christ would be so cold and careless as to as to nonchalantly and arrogantly say, "Too bad for you." and send them off in terror of hell. Shaking their faith to the core.

Mod Hat: You do not know who is lurking and reading and actually believe your false teaching against the Bible doctrine concerning the sufficiency of Christ, because they are new to Christianity and just learning. So do it again and warning points will be issued. We care for the little children even if you don't.

 

[CrowCross]

No that is what you are assigning to me that is a false characterization. I have said over and over it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin water is just the vessel in which God uses to do the transformation.

Can you point out where in the bible it says that water does the transforming?

I found this verse pertaining to transforming ...Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect......but water baptism doesn't seem to be what it is discussing.

I also found this verse about transforming....2 Cor 3;17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit......but once again, water baptism doesn't seem to be what it is discussing.

 

[Arial]

It is my prayer that all come to the truth of Gods will and submit accordingly. I have an obligation to my Farther to correct error of his word to save lives for God does not want any to perish but is a just God and gives all time to study to show thyself approved.

Correcting error is one thing and a good thing. Your error has been corrected over and over, and you have yet to submit to it. The Father's word.

Baptism is good, and yes, it is commanded. But it is commanded as a covenant sign, just as circumcision was commanded under the old covenant as a covenant sign. It is not commanded for the remission of sin. Christ alone remits sin through his substitution and ransom paid to release his people (those God gives him (John 6:37,39,65; John 17:2,6, 9,24; John 19:29; Heb2:13) from the chains that bind them to sin. This work of Christ is applied to those God is giving hm by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6; John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5;1 Cor 2:12,14). Until and when that is done there can be no understanding of what we hear concerning Christ (1 Cor 2:14) and without understanding there is no faith. It is the Spirit who gives understanding and faith.

And it is by faith that we are justified before God(Romans 3:28,26; Romans 5:1; 4:5,24; Gal2:16). To be justified before God is a judicial act declaring one righteous. It is a legal verdict, not a process. In this God forgives all sin and credits (imputed) Christ's righteousness to the believer (Romans 8:33; Romans 3:26; Romans 3:8; Gal 2:16).

On imputed righteousness: (Phil 3:9; Romans 4:5-6).
Forgiveness and removal of guilt (Romans 4:7-8).

Justification is God's judicial declaration that a sinner is righteous in his sight solely because of Christ's righteousness imputed to them and received by faith alone as the scriptures declare.

Read the scriptures given and within their context. None include baptism for the remission of sins. If baptism were also necessary for justification, God would say so. So, it is obvious that when doing a topical study only on baptism and therefore being given only a few isolated scriptures removed from the full counsel of God, (that would be everything that God says concerning how one is saved, not just baptism) you have arrived at and then taught with self-given authority, your own wrong conclusion. One ought to be more careful in handling the word of the Holy God.

 

[BillyBob65]

Can you point out where in the bible it says that water does the transforming?

I found this verse pertaining to transforming ...Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect......but water baptism doesn't seem to be what it is discussing.

I also found this verse about transforming....2 Cor 3;17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit......but once again, water baptism doesn't seem to be what it is discussing.

You asked "Can you point out where in the bible it says that water does the transforming?" No I can not because the water is not what is doing the transforming work that is God himself doing the work the water is ONLY the vessel he chose to do this in.

If not then what would you say? Let me ask you this Read Romans six and see if that is not being transformed form dead i sin to alive in Christ could transform not fit this action?

 

[CrowCross]

You asked "Can you point out where in the bible it says that water does the transforming?" No I can not because the water is not what is doing the transforming work that is God himself doing the work the water is ONLY the vessel he chose to do this in.

Well then can you show me where the bible says the water is the vessel that does the transformning?

If not then what would you say? Let me ask you this Read Romans six and see if that is not being transformed form dead i sin to alive in Christ could transform not fit this action?

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

 

[BillyBob65]

Well then can you show me where the bible says the water is the vessel that does the transformning?


I'm not quite sure what you mean.

In Romans 6 Paul says

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?How does the bible teach we are baptized into Jesus Christ?
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
it is defiantly a water baptism that we were baptized with
Acts 10:47,48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. so the scriptures say we were baptized in water in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and the receiving of the spirit.

Romans 6:4-6 says it is when God transforms one from dead in sin to alive in Christ
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

In verse 4 we read it is by the glory of God this is being done it is a transformation from dead to alive. it is recorded right there for all our benefit so that we can know. It is up to us what we will do with the message do we accept it as the truth of Gods word or try to explain it away so it can fit our view.

 

[BillyBob65]

Correcting error is one thing and a good thing. Your error has been corrected over and over, and you have yet to submit to it. The Father's word.

Baptism is good, and yes, it is commanded. But it is commanded as a covenant sign, just as circumcision was commanded under the old covenant as a covenant sign. It is not commanded for the remission of sin. Christ alone remits sin through his substitution and ransom paid to release his people (those God gives him (John 6:37,39,65; John 17:2,6, 9,24; John 19:29; Heb2:13) from the chains that bind them to sin. This work of Christ is applied to those God is giving hm by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6; 3John 1:12-1; Titus 3:5;1 Cor 2:12,14). Until and when that is done there can be no understanding of what we hear concerning Christ (1 Cor 2:14) and without understanding there is no faith. It is the Spirit who gives understanding and faith.

And it is by faith that we are justified before God(Romans 3:28,26; Romans 5:1; 4:5,24; Gal2:16). To be justified before God is a judicial act declaring one righteous. It is a legal verdict, not a process. In this God forgives all sin and credits (imputed) Christ's righteousness to the believer (Romans 8:33; Romans 3:26; Romans 3:8; Gal 2:16).

On imputed righteousness: (Phil 3:9; Romans 4:5-6).
Forgiveness and removal of guilt (Romans 4:7-8).

Justification is God's judicial declaration that a sinner is righteous in his sight solely because of Christ's righteousness imputed to them and received by faith alone as the scriptures declare.

Read the scriptures given and within their context. None include baptism for the remission of sins. If baptism were also necessary for justification, God would say so. So, it is obvious that when doing a topical study only on baptism and therefore being given only a few isolated scriptures removed from the full counsel of God, (that would be everything that God says concerning how one is saved, not just baptism) you have arrived at and then taught with self-given authority, your own wrong conclusion. One ought to be more careful in handling the word of the Holy God.

Correcting error is one thing and a good thing. Your error has been corrected over and over, and you have yet to submit to it. The Father's word.

Now this is funny this is exactly what I thought about you.

Baptism is good, and yes, it is commanded. But it is commanded as a covenant sign, just as circumcision was commanded under the old covenant as a covenant sign. It is not commanded for the remission of sin. Christ alone remits sin through his substitution and ransom paid to release his people (those God gives him (John 6:37,39,65; John 17:2,6, 9,24; John 19:29; Heb2:13) from the chains that bind them to sin. This work of Christ is applied to those God is giving hm by the Holy Spirit (John 3:5-6; John 1:12-13; Titus 3:5;1 Cor 2:12,14). Until and when that is done there can be no understanding of what we hear concerning Christ (1 Cor 2:14) and without understanding there is no faith. It is the Spirit who gives understanding and faith.

Here is what I am talking about, the bible clearly says that baptism is for the remission of sin Acts 2 and explains it in Romans 6. I will post it for you because it might not say it in your bible. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Now that is from the King James Version right there in plain English it says be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins can you not see that? Yes you can see it just as clearly as I can. The difference is you say that can't possibly what God meant it is not worded right so you have to rewrite it. Why? Because it does not fit what you teach. Therefore it has to be God was mistaken it surely can't be you.
Even though Paul agrees with baptism is where sins are washed away you as before say Paul doesn't know what he is talking about because that does not fit what you are trying to teach. Yes it is Christ that remit sin and he has chosen to do so in the baptism in his name that he was going to baptize, again see Romans 6 it says right there that when we were baptized (in Christ name for it is the only they are commanding) we are baptized into his death (the cross,his blood the gospel) so yes the blood of Christ is what washes away sin and we come to it in baptism in his name calling on the name of the Lord Acts 22:16 so see I am reading these scripture and quoting them just as they were written. I don't have to say that cant be what it means.

John 6:37,39,65; Now compare that with Romans 10 and see how they are called.
John 17:2,6, 9,24; This whole chapter is a prayer from Jesus to his Father he is saying he has done the work of giving the word to the Apostles and they will be faithful to the end. While we can say if we obey the word and keep it faithful to the end we to can be kept but it isn't talking about us but the Apostles. I know you cant see that because you feel this is your trump card but truly have missed the point.
John 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. admittedly I don't see the connect you are trying to make with this verse
Heb2:13 Still it is through the gospel that God has given thee.
John 3:5-6; Now compare that with Romans if so do not see how it relates
3John 1:12-1 don't know what this means is it 3 john 1:12 not 12-1 If so do not see how it relates
Titus 3:5 compare this with Romans ^ and while there be sure to se who is doing the washing I am sure you will see it says by the glory of God. He is at work not man. It is shameful for man to say this is there work when the bible clearly say it is God at work.
1 Cor 2:12,14 Again this is in relation to the Apostles he is saying the the spirit gave them the word in which they preach it is not mans word but Gods word

Until and when that is done there can be no understanding of what we hear concerning Christ (1 Cor 2:14) and without understanding there is no faith. It is the Spirit who gives understanding and faith

Compare this statement with Romans 10 Apparently Paul seems to think man can understand the gospel preached to them.

And it is by faith that we are justified before God(Romans 3:28,26; Romans 5:1; 4:5,24; Gal2:16). To be justified before God is a judicial act declaring one righteous. It is a legal verdict, not a process. In this God forgives all sin and credits (imputed) Christ's righteousness to the believer (Romans 8:33; Romans 3:26; Romans 3:8; Gal 2:16).

Galations 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
I am glad you pointed to this scripture. Here is what I have been trying to get you to understand. When Paul is talking about works he is referring to the works of the law. See Ephesian 2:8 We are justified by The faith that once was delivered and in that faith the gospel call to respond is in baptism in Christ name see Acts 2

Justification is God's judicial declaration that a sinner is righteous in his sight solely because of Christ's righteousness imputed to them and received by faith alone as the scriptures declare.[/quote Only if that faith allows for the baptism in Jesus name if you try to tear being what is says and part of THE FAITH> If you try to divorce it from the teaching of Acts 2:38 you then pervert the gospel.

Read the scriptures given and within their context. None include baptism for the remission of sins. If baptism were also necessary for justification, God would say so. So, it is obvious that when doing a topical study only on baptism and therefore being given only a few isolated scriptures removed from the full counsel of God, (that would be everything that God says concerning how one is saved, not just baptism) you have arrived at and then taught with self-given authority, your own wrong conclusion. One ought to be more careful in handling the word of the Holy God.

When doing a study of the bible and you have to reject the teaching of one subject and rewrite it to fit your view of another subject then you are doing a disgrace to the word and not understanding the true meaning. You can not fool God and will stand before him one day trying to explain to him that he did not know what he was talking about when he said Believe and be baptized and you shall be save.

 

[CrowCross]

How does the bible teach we are baptized into Jesus Christ?

The bible doesn't tell us how to baptize people.

Sprinkling? Pouring? Immersion?

If baptism was a requirement for salvation I'm sure the bible would have told us how to do it.

 

[BillyBob65]

The bible doesn't tell us how to baptize people.

Sprinkling? Pouring? Immersion?

If baptism was a requirement for salvation I'm sure the bible would have told us how to do it.

Maybe my friend it has we just don't understand because we have been taught differently. I would look at the baptism of John and see the pattern God started while waiting for the work to be finished. Then I would look at Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47,48 If you really want to discuss this more I will do my best to answer questions but will not longer take the lead.

 

[CrowCross]

Maybe my friend it has we just don't understand because we have been taught differently. I would look at the baptism of John and see the pattern God started while waiting for the work to be finished. Then I would look at Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47,48 If you really want to discuss this more I will do my best to answer questions but will not longer take the lead.

Verses such as Acts 2:38 do nothing in explaining how one is to be baptized. In fact no where in the bible are we instructed how to baptize people.
The question was.....if baptism water is a requirement for salvation....then why doesn't the bible explain how to baptize people?

Should we use.....Sprinkling? Pouring? Immersion?
Who is allowed to do the baptism? Anyone? Just the priest? Pastor, Elders? Who?
What do they say? What does the one being baptized say?

So, please answer the question.....if baptism water is a requirement for salvation....then why doesn't the bible explain how to baptize people?

 

[Arial]

Now this is funny this is exactly what I thought about you.

Irrelevant to conversation.

Here is what I am talking about, the bible clearly says that baptism is for the remission of sin Acts 2 and explains it in Romans 6. I will post it for you because it might not say it in your bible. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.Now that is from the King James Version right there in plain English it says be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins can you not see that? Yes you can see it just as clearly as I can. The difference is you say that can't possibly what God meant it is not worded right so you have to rewrite it. Why? Because it does not fit what you teach. Therefore it has to be God was mistaken it surely can't be you.

That is full of rules violations which I will deal with as soon as I am finished responding to this post.
You failed to consider any other scriptures that concern sorteriology---how we are saved. Do you not believe in the Protestant interpretive method that the Bible itself is the sole authority on the interpretation of Scripture (scripture interprets scripture)? That is, difficult passages or those that seem to be presenting a contradiction of other scriptures are interpreted through the lens of those passages that are clear on the same subject. You have already indicated that you deny the Protestant mandate of salvation through faith alone. Do you dump this one too?
The premise that everything we need to know about baptism is to be found in a topical study of baptism and nothing else is a false premise. As long as one uses that to say our sins are remitted by baptism and ignores all else, the belief is built on shifting sand. Why? Because the Bible has a great deal more to say about how sins are remitted. And even the topical study of baptism has omitted those passages that clearly show it is a sign of something, even though that should be obvious. It ignores the comparison that the Bible itself makes between circumcision as a covenant sign (clearly stated and I have given those passages) and the Christian baptism as a covenant sign. A sign points to or represents something other, something greater, than the sign itself. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what I want the Bible to say. It is correctly handling the word of God.

Even though Paul agrees with baptism is where sins are washed away you as before say Paul doesn't know what he is talking about because that does not fit what you are trying to teach.

More rules violations.
I am not saying Paul doesn't know what he is talking about. You are saying I don't know what I am talking about. I gave you scripture of Paul' explicit statements of justification through faith and nothing more. Where is your rebuttal of those scriptures?

Yes it is Christ that remit sin and he has chosen to do so in the baptism in his name that he was going to baptize, again see Romans 6 it says right there that when we were baptized (in Christ name for it is the only they are commanding) we are baptized into his death (the cross,his blood the gospel) so yes the blood of Christ is what washes away sin and we come to it in baptism in his name calling on the name of the Lord Acts 22:16 so see I am reading these scripture and quoting them just as they were written. I don't have to say that cant be what it means.

When you say that Christ chose to remit sins in the baptism in his name, you use two selective verses and ignore everything else to prove your point, and presume upon the intentions and desires of the Lord.

Luke's narrative.

So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.

It does not say he was baptized for the remission of sin. Here is the grammatical breakdown of Acts 22: 16, which is important given all the places that state we are saved through faith, not baptism.

"be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
The verbs are:

• “Be baptized” — passive imperative
• “Wash away your sins” — middle imperative
• “Calling on His name” — aorist participle functioning like “by calling on His name”

The participle (calling on his name) attaches the washing away to calling on the Lord, not the act of baptism. IOW Your sins are washed away by calling on His name, and baptism is the outward sign that accompanies this.

This keeps perfectly with the pattern in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13.

The theology of Acts never attributes forgiveness to baptism itself.

Acts 10:43-48. They receive remission of sins by believing (v.43), then are baptized (47-48).
Acts 16:30-33 the Phillipian jailer. "Believe--- and you will be saved." Then he is baptized.
Acts 3:19 Repentance and turning to God are what bring forgiveness.

Paul himself denites baptismal remission as cause.
"Christ did not send me to baptize but toe preach the gospel" (1 Cor 1:17). This would make no sense if baptism itself remitted sins.
:We are justified by faith apart from works" (Romans 3-4). Water baptism is an external work. Paul's sins were forgiven before baptism. Christ had already appeared to him and he already believed, and he already called on Jesus' name before Ananias arrived (Acts 9).