The Arminianist Charismatic: Why Some Abandon Their Faith

[Arial]

It is important to notice the word "their" in the title.

The predominant answer to the question by both Reformed/Calvinist and those factions of Arminianism that believe salvation cannot be lost, is to say "They were never really saved, never really believed." While this is a true statement, can an actual defense of the statement be made biblically? IOW, is there scripture that affirms, with substance presented (not just the quote), that it is actually impossible for one who is genuinely saved to become "unsaved"?

The R/C can use John 10:25-29 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe, the works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

The Arminianist, be he Charistmatic or not, cannot use that verse because he alters the scripture to support his denial of election and predestination. Usually simply by quoting another scripture that when removed from all context, (surrounding, historical, full counsel of God); standing alone appears to say that anyone who wants to come to Jesus, can come to him. Such as the verse in John 3:16 "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Saying that demonstrates our choice in the matter, ignoring all that Jesus had said in John 3:1-15 and everything that came after.

The biblical substantiation for a Christian never losing their salvation is found only in a rightly defined and exegesis of the Doctrines of Grace in R/C.

My particular focus in this OP of the Charismatic branch of Arminianism was prompted by my attention being brought to a You Tuber, Timmy Gibson. He was born into and raised Pentecostal. He was "saved" at age seven when he, according to his own words, "invited Jesus into his heart". He was groomed by the Pentacostal organization to be a youth pastor and ordained when he was very young. His interviews and videos say he was a pastor for thirty years. At some point he started his own church near Kansas City, Ks.

 

[CrowCross]

@Arial
Can one lose their salvation? I say no. You presented one of the verses above. You can't be snatched.

As to abandoning your faith.....does that mean you lost salvation or simply returned back to your un-saved lifestyle? Some call it backslidden... Still saved but at the Bema seat judgement will receive no or little rewards as your christian "life" will be burnt up....He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. (1 Cor 3:15)

 

[Arial]

@Arial
Can one lose their salvation? I say no. You presented one of the verses above. You can't be snatched.

As to abandoning your faith.....does that mean you lost salvation or simply returned back to your un-saved lifestyle? Some call it backslidden... Still saved but at the Bema seat judgement will receive no or little rewards as your christian "life" will be burnt up....He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. (1 Cor 3:15)

No a person who has been saved by God cannot lose their salvation.

If someone were to claim that you can, what do you suppose would be their arguments supporting loss of salvation, and how would you counter them, beyond just quoting the Scripture? What support would you give to the scripture you use that would refute the ones they used?

As to abandoning your faith.....does that mean you lost salvation or simply returned back to your un-saved lifestyle? Some call it backslidden... Still saved but at the Bema seat judgement will receive no or little rewards as your christian "life" will be burnt up....He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames. (1 Cor 3:15)

By abandoning their faith in this OP I am dealing with completely departing from what they had once claimed to believe. The actual gospel in its soteriology aspects. How we get saved.

Returning back to one's unsaved lifestyle may be an indication but no one but God can see what is in their heart. Only he knows whether or not he has changed that heart and brought them to genuine faith. Therefore, it is not the place of any human to judge whether what they see is having never believed or if it is a season God is allowing them or even decreeing, that they go through to serve his purposes. Often, it produces a stronger faith because on the inside, the person is just wrestling (flesh against spirit, environment, situation),and on the inside they are convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and in their heart they grieve but tenaciously cling to God. (There was a time in my own life because of all the parentheticals in that last sentence, that the most I could do was a number of times a day I cried out to him, "God I know I only breathe because you give me breath."). He brought me out of it much stronger.

As to 1 Cor 3:15 I take issue with the wording of "backsliding" will cause his Christian life to be burned up. Maybe it just needs better clarification, but to do so would change the subject. As would me explaining why I disagree with the term "backsliding" to describe sins that may not be fully put to death. It is enough to just believe the words of Paul and leave it at that, without having to decide exactly what that would look like.

 

[CrowCross]

Mod: Text deleted. Unnecessary, off-topic, bickering

As to 1 Cor 3:15 I take issue with the wording of "backsliding" will cause his Christian life to be burned up.

I was referring to what they did or didn't do for the glory of God through out the saved portion of their life.

 

[Arial]

I just realized that a great deal of my OP did not post, for some unknown reason. Here is the rest of it. @makesends @ElectedbyHim

According to Timmy Gibson, he "believed everything he had been taught his whole life, until he didn't believe any of it. He now says he is an agnostic, and at other times that he is an atheist )and of course on cannot be both of those things). He does not believe the Bible is the word of God. Does not believe in hell, the devil, sin creation. He believes in evolution, and his claim is that reason, logic, and science are what showed him the things he had been taught were not true. So, ironically, he has reverted back to the early days of the Age of Enlightenment, when scientific discoveries shook the faith of many, since they saw the discoveries of geologists and archaeologists as incompatible with the biblical account of creation. The things that he had been taught in his association with Pentecostals, did not align with reality, so he rejected Christiananity and everything in it.

He preached a sermon "God Loves Gays": and lost most of his church members. He now puts out You Tube videos mocking Christianity, calling it a cult. But something here is very important to take note of. The things he was being taught, were being taught by Penetecostals. The first to note is, that at least in its original form, and from the things TG says, I think it was part of his group, was the teaching of personal holiness, and that speaking in tongues (what was called the baptism of the Holy Spirit) was the way to get there. It considered a completely sinless life possible, and that that was the goal. As a result, the religion becomes legalistic in the extreme, the focus is on behaviors. A person's salvation then becomes "faith in Jesus plus works". In the process of this focus then, there is very little doctrinal teaching on Christ and him crucified. Though most of the Charismatic non-denomination churches do not subscribe to that belief, they still have much in common. Including speaking in tongues as evidence of spirituality at a higher level than those who do not speak in tongues.

And what they teach indeed does not fit reality, and these are the things TG constantly makes reference o. They are found int the Prosperity Gospel (which in no gospel), Word of Life, Word of Faith, and to one degree or another, defines "Charismatic churches".

There is much more that could be said about it, and perhaps will be through participation in the thread. But bottom line, and relating this to even long time "believers" leaving their faith: It was their faith, not the faith in Christ that God gives. And their faith was placed in the wrong things. They believed wrong things. TG himself, in an interview, stated that when he invited Jesus into his life at age seven, it was out of fear. Of hell, sure, he claimed, but mainly fear that his parents would disappear in the rapture and he wouldn't. He would be left all alone. (Another very dangerous teaching). And it was fear that kept him there as long as it did. He was trusting in his "invitation" with no trust at all in God, only in the things those around him were telling him.

In his videos that deny sin and hell, it is easy to see that he desires to do things that the Bible (and his church people) would call sin and that would damn him to hell. So he simply denied sin, denied the existence of God, rejected the atonement of Christ, denied hell, denied that he would be held accountable, ever, for anything he did or does. He is happy now. He appeared to be a believer for a long time, but now, and sadly, very sadly, has revealed his heart as stoney and hard. There was no new birth.

A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true. He never looked outside of the Charismatic circles to see if that represented true orthodox Christianity. At least in his videos and interview, there is no indication that he did. He left critical thinking and a search for truth behind, putting all of Christianity under the same umbrella. If one thing is not true, then none of it is, approach. This being taught things that are not true, along with not being taught what is true, is no isolated case with what TG grew up with. It is rampant in both Charismatic Arminanis and non-Charismatic Arminianism.

And the really sad thing is the delusion of the devil, the same deceit of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. TG now considers himself freed from a bondage. He thinks he has hidden from God by simply saying God doesn't exist.

 

[CrowCross]

A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true.

Such as?

 

[Arial]

Such as?

In his videos he says a lot of things that he was always taught that are not true. I am not going to list them all. I do state some of them in the part of the OP that you are responding to.

 

[makesends]

I just realized that a great deal of my OP did not post, for some unknown reason. Here is the rest of it. @makesends @ElectedbyHim

According to Timmy Gibson, he "believed everything he had been taught his whole life, until he didn't believe any of it. He now says he is an agnostic, and at other times that he is an atheist )and of course on cannot be both of those things). He does not believe the Bible is the word of God. Does not believe in hell, the devil, sin creation. He believes in evolution, and his claim is that reason, logic, and science are what showed him the things he had been taught were not true. So, ironically, he has reverted back to the early days of the Age of Enlightenment, when scientific discoveries shook the faith of many, since they saw the discoveries of geologists and archaeologists as incompatible with the biblical account of creation. The things that he had been taught in his association with Pentecostals, did not align with reality, so he rejected Christiananity and everything in it.

But for the thing about tongues, (in its many expressions (sorry, couldn't resist)), mainstream Christianity has departed from Orthodoxy pretty much the same way the Charismatics have. Their gospel is just as corrupt, and in the same things.

He preached a sermon "God Loves Gays": and lost most of his church members. He now puts out You Tube videos mocking Christianity, calling it a cult. But something here is very important to take note of. The things he was being taught, were being taught by Penetecostals. The first to note is, that at least in its original form, and from the things TG says, I think it was part of his group, was the teaching of personal holiness, and that speaking in tongues (what was called the baptism of the Holy Spirit) was the way to get there. It considered a completely sinless life possible, and that that was the goal. As a result, the religion becomes legalistic in the extreme, the focus is on behaviors. A person's salvation then becomes "faith in Jesus plus works". In the process of this focus then, there is very little doctrinal teaching on Christ and him crucified. Though most of the Charismatic non-denomination churches do not subscribe to that belief, they still have much in common. Including speaking in tongues as evidence of spirituality at a higher level than those who do not speak in tongues.

I too went through a phase where I wished to give up and disbelieve, (but found out I couldn't do so), because I too grew up in 'modern' (born 1955) Christendom's perversions of the gospel and the focus on behaviors and 'personal holiness'. Life was all about sin and how to conquer it. That "Christian Victory" that I had heard about like dangling a carrot in front of the donkey, always just out of reach, nearly did me in. If my father hadn't kept going back to what the Bible does say, and what it does mean, as opposed to what we kids reported hearing, I think I too would have left.

And what they teach indeed does not fit reality, and these are the things TG constantly makes reference o. They are found int the Prosperity Gospel (which in no gospel), Word of Life, Word of Faith, and to one degree or another, defines "Charismatic churches".

There is much more that could be said about it, and perhaps will be through participation in the thread. But bottom line, and relating this to even long time "believers" leaving their faith: It was their faith, not the faith in Christ that God gives. And their faith was placed in the wrong things. They believed wrong things. TG himself, in an interview, stated that when he invited Jesus into his life at age seven, it was out of fear. Of hell, sure, he claimed, but mainly fear that his parents would disappear in the rapture and he wouldn't. He would be left all alone. (Another very dangerous teaching). And it was fear that kept him there as long as it did. He was trusting in his "invitation" with no trust at all in God, only in the things those around him were telling him.

That rapture thing messed with me for several years. I couldn't go to sleep until the clock had struck midnight, which meant I had made it through the day. This was not because of unrepentance, but simply because I knew I did not fit the descriptions of "Christian Believer" I had heard of. But after years, some things become simply ludicrous, and no long worth letting them mock me, ruling me.

In his videos that deny sin and hell, it is easy to see that he desires to do things that the Bible (and his church people) would call sin and that would damn him to hell. So he simply denied sin, denied the existence of God, rejected the atonement of Christ, denied hell, denied that he would be held accountable, ever, for anything he did or does. He is happy now. He appeared to be a believer for a long time, but now, and sadly, very sadly, has revealed his heart as stoney and hard. There was no new birth.

A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true. He never looked outside of the Charismatic circles to see if that represented true orthodox Christianity. At least in his videos and interview, there is no indication that he did. He left critical thinking and a search for truth behind, putting all of Christianity under the same umbrella. If one thing is not true, then none of it is, approach. This being taught things that are not true, along with not being taught what is true, is no isolated case with what TG grew up with. It is rampant in both Charismatic Arminanis and non-Charismatic Arminianism.

Exactly.

And the really sad thing is the delusion of the devil, the same deceit of the serpent in the Garden of Eden. TG now considers himself freed from a bondage. He thinks he has hidden from God by simply saying God doesn't exist.

Yes. What he didn't realize, and I didn't, is that Satan is like Congress— plays both sides, both false, as if that difference is the real war —my struggle against sin was to attain the false promises of a sinless (even a more or less sinless) consistently growing life that was what typifies a true believer. Ironically, "For whoever wants to save their life will lose it" fits here. I hate a gospel where Salvation —even the definition of it, nevermind the fact of it and evidence of it— depends on human 'doing'.

All any of us have of any value is "Christ in me".

 

[makesends]

He now says he is an agnostic, and at other times that he is an atheist )and of course on cannot be both of those things)

It has become a trend for atheists to say that they don't disbelieve/ are not opposed to deistic 'theories', but that they simply fail to believe. That is pretty much the same thing as agnostic, except they don't advertise that they think it is possible that there be a God. Has this sweet intellectual feel to it, and puts the argument in God's side of the ball court. They make it God's responsibility to prove it to them (and that, of course, according to whatever THEY consider proof).

Like the agnostic, too, and every other person insisting on self-determinism, they consider truth to be in their camp, and their unbiased position to be intellectually sound. It's GOD's job to change their mind —(how little do they know...! ).

 

[CrowCross]

In his videos he says a lot of things that he was always taught that are not true. I am not going to list them all. I do state some of them in the part of the OP that you are responding to.

I'm sure some of what the charismatics teach might not be 100% accurate...{Edit: unnecessary provocation to off topic bickering}.

Your post made it seem as the charismatic church is false when you wrote...."A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true. He never looked outside of the Charismatic circles to see if that represented true orthodox Christianity."

 

[makesends]

I'm sure some of what the charismatics teach might not be 100% accurate....but, neither is what you teach.

Your post made it seem as the charismatic church is false when you wrote...."A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true. He never looked outside of the Charismatic circles to see if that represented true orthodox Christianity."

Neither is what you teach. What's your point? Are you saying that Charismatic teaching is generally sound as true orthodox Christianity? Are you saying that Charismatic teaching IS orthodoxy? Are you just saying that Charismatic teaching is as good as anyone else's?

Do you condone the notion that Christian maturity/obedience/success/walking with God is typified by speaking in tongues? Do you support the Charismatic/Pentecostal deviations from Orthodoxy?

There is indeed a wide diversity of Charismatic teaching and focuses; @Arial was not talking about all of them, but in particular about the Arminianistic-thinking variety; also she was talking about what is wrong behind their thinking. THAT Charismatic church IS false. She didn't say there can't be true believers among them, nor even that a pastor may be sound but bit off more than he could chew, nor that a church may have sound doctrine in general, but she was referring to a certain sort. What is your intellectual problem with that? Or are you Charismatic and she touched a nerve?

 

[Arial]

Your post made it seem as the charismatic church is false when you wrote...."A lot of what TG was taught as a Chrismatic was not true. He never looked outside of the Charismatic circles to see if that represented true orthodox Christianity."

Everything it teaches that is false is false teaching,--- not Christian. Their teachings on tongues, the Holy Spirit, miracles, signs and wonders, God personally speaking to them outside his word, apostles, prophets, healings as a normal part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross, exorcising demons, rebuking Satan, the weather, most of the demonology they teach etc. is wrong. It is not taught in the Bible as a part of our inheritance or church practices or purpose. Even their Chrisology is very shallow. Their soteriology is wrong. They have built on another foundation and they built on it with wood, hay, and straw.

 

[CrowCross]

Neither is what you teach. What's your point? Are you saying that Charismatic teaching is generally sound as true orthodox Christianity? Are you saying that Charismatic teaching IS orthodoxy? Are you just saying that Charismatic teaching is as good as anyone else's?

Both have their issues.

Do you condone the notion that Christian maturity/obedience/success/walking with God is typified by speaking in tongues? Do you support the Charismatic/Pentecostal deviations from Orthodoxy?

I have no problem with speaking in tongues. That is, as long as the tongues isn't forced. As long as the tongues have an interpreter.

There is indeed a wide diversity of Charismatic teaching and focuses; @Arial was not talking about all of them, but in particular about the Arminianistic-thinking variety; also she was talking about what is wrong behind their thinking. THAT Charismatic church IS false. She didn't say there can't be true believers among them, nor even that a pastor may be sound but bit off more than he could chew, nor that a church may have sound doctrine in general, but she was referring to a certain sort. What is your intellectual problem with that? Or are you Charismatic and she touched a nerve?

"but she was referring to a certain sort."......I was curious to what "sort" she was referring to. Or, you were referring to?
Sort can be written like this....$ort. I prefer the t

 

[CrowCross]

Everything it teaches that is false is false teaching,--- not Christian. Their teachings on tongues, the Holy Spirit, miracles, signs and wonders, God personally speaking to them outside his word, apostles, prophets, healings as a normal part of what Jesus purchased for us on the cross, exorcising demons, rebuking Satan, the weather, most of the demonology they teach etc. is wrong. It is not taught in the Bible as a part of our inheritance or church practices or purpose. Even their Chrisology is very shallow. Their soteriology is wrong. They have built on another foundation and they built on it with wood, hay, and straw.

I am so glad I don't go to your church.
When you say "their soteriology is wrong"....you proclaim they have no salvation. I am really glad I don't go to your church.

 

[Arial]

I am so glad I don't go to your church.
When you say "their soteriology is wrong"....you proclaim they have no salvation. I am really glad I don't go to your church.

I don't go to a Charismatic church. I could have sworn I made that clear.

But you cannot say that when I say their soteriology is wrong that I am proclaiming they have no salvation, without knowing what I say is wrong about their soteriology. That might have been a good question to ask first.