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The antichristian Church

You are very emotional

I'm a former Muslim, I was baptized 11 years ago now.

This faith? This faith IS worth my life to me... So yes, I have an emotional attachment to my Lord and Savior.

Just the fact you sit around intentionally destroying the faith your wife has in God such that you leave her in tears is telling.

The man I married is the man who brought me to Christ, and it is him I call husband on his earth and love because he is a reflection of my Lord through the Holy Spirit. (The Lord whom is my true husband).

The hands of my husband heals me...

I'm sorry you did that horror to your wife, whom you are to love in Christ, to encourage her and build her up - not destroy her and tear her down.

It brings me to tears that you have joy in her destruction. It really does.

I'm just going to put you on ignore so I don't get in trouble.
 
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In Paul’s own words:

and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas, and John, those who were reputed to be pillars, gave to Barnabas and me the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcision. (Galatians 2:9)
But that isn't Paul rejecting the disciples, or the disciples rejecting him.
In the WEB version, Paul stated that James, Cephas, and John were “reputed” to be leaders of the Church. Paul didn’t state that these men were the leaders of the Church, he stated they were “reputed to be pillars.” The word “reputed” in other translations is replaced with the words “seemed to be,” “recognized,” and “considered to be.” Take the word “reputed” out from Paul’s description and he has claimed that James, Cephas, and John are the pillars of the Church. Put that word back in and Paul is stating that others claim them as leaders, but Paul is not necessarily in agreement with them.

Paul was not a team player for Jesus, he was a soloist on a mission.
No he wasn't a soloist. He went on missionary journeys with Silas, Barnabas, Luke and others. He talks about many lesser-known Christians as his "fellow workers."
Sure, his letters paint him in the spotlight as the most important player on the team,
No they don't. Indeed, the opposite is true. For example:

“For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?” (1Co 3:4-5 NKJV)

“I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.” (1Co 2:3-5 NKJV)

“For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.” (1Co 15:9 NKJV)
but this is from letters attributed to Paul that the false teachers collated and assembled as the word of God called the Bible. In his own words, Paul resented the leadership of the early Church. But then if you consider that to be the truth, we find a few apparent contradictions. First, you can read in Galatians 2:9 how James, Cephas, and John gave Paul the “right hand of fellowship.” But these are the words of Paul.

For proof that the disciples rejected Paul, look at how many times they met with this great missionary--twice over a seventeen year period.
Disciples were followers of Jesus, not merely the 12 apostles. And Paul regularly met with fellow Christians, disciples.
Paul and the disciples did not get along. Paul even publicly chastised Peter and bragged about it in his letter.
He didn't brag about it:

“Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” (Ga 2:11-14 NKJV)

No bragging there. Paul doesn't say, "I am better than him." He explains why the "withstanding" was necessary. How to regard Gentile believers was a lesson that Peter had to learn, as we know from the vision he was given about the sheet with ceremonially clean and unclean animals.
What did Peter have to say about what happened? Peter didn't get a chance because he wasn't there to comment. Can you imagine anyone publicly attacking Peter or John? It's hard for me to fathom.
But Paul wasn't attacking him. You say that Peter didn't get a chance to answer because he wasn't there. Look at the verses I have just quoted. How could Paul withstand him to the face if he wasn't there? And notice, Paul says, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?” How could he do that if Peter wasn't there?
Yes in the first account Ananias claims that Jesus appeared to Paul--Paul doesn't, he claims he had a conversation.
What was the bright light? That seems to be how Jesus appeared to Him. Paul spoke to Jesus as to someone who was there. "Who are You, Lord?" and so on.
Ananias departed and entered into the house. Laying his hands on him, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord, who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 9:17)

The story morphs over time and Paul starts claiming that Jesus appeared to him:

and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. (1 Corinthians 15:8)

The Paul claims in the final account that Jesus appeared to him:

But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will reveal to you; (Acts 26:16)

Paul's story has changed over time and not just in a small way, but a big change. This is evidence of deception and if you're wondering thy Paul and the leaders of the Church only met twice, this is the answer. They didn't believe Paul and Paul rejected them because they wouldn't accept him.
No the reason they didn't at first accept him is that previously he had persecuted Christians. They were afraid of him to start with:

“And when Saul had come to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples; but they were all afraid of him, and did not believe that he was a disciple. But Barnabas took him and brought [him] to the apostles. And he declared to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.” (Ac 9:26-27 NKJV)
The Catholics claim that Matthew 16:17-19 is Jesus appointing Peter to lead the Church. There is absolutely no evidence supporting that claim like you have stated, so they made a few edits to build the reputation of Peter. He is always listed first, in some verses he is separated from the other disciples:

But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He goes before you into Galilee. There you will see him, as he said to you.’” (Mark 16:7)
In these days, Peter stood up in the middle of the disciples (and the number of names was about one hundred twenty), and said, (Acts 1:15)

Peter, being the only one to walk on water was key.
I am not a Roman Catholic, so why bring up Roman Catholic claims about Peter? You say he was the only one to walk on water. Well, he did for a moment, then became afraid and began to sink.
Matthew essentially does not exist for the verse you reference--and that story was copied from Mark! John, the most thorough accounting of the disciples doesn't list Matthew but he does extensively discuss Nicodemus--very early in his book.
Matthew was created by the Catholics because they needed a disciple to be with Jesus to here Jesus appoint him the leader of the Church and walk on water.
I don't believe that the Roman Catholics created the gospel Matthew.
Nicodemus wasn't with Jesus like the other disciples--hence the copying. That's a big clue for the integrity of the Gospel of Mark. A religious leader who wrote an account of Jesus to prove him as the Messiah copied information from the Gospel of Mark. That says that the author of Mark was definitely an eyewitness too!
There is no evidence that a man named Matthew wrote that Gospel if you look at the records.
There is more evidence that Matthew wrote it than that Nicodemus did.
 
What has anyone on this site done with any of this information? Have they dug into the details or done any research and responded with any word of God that disputes anything? Nope, nothing, zilch other than rejection of my interpretations and conclusions because it counters the Bible being the inerrant and infallible word of God. A few verses are provided to support that inerrant and infallible Bible claim, but the words do not come come from God--they come from unauthorized men. Telling me that the Bible is the inerrant infallible word of God, so anything I conclude doesn't matter is ridiculous. The pagans don't believe you and why should anyone else?
Every one of the citations you give has been handled, and handled with the word of God. The people you are engaging with are Christians, not heretics. This is a Christian forum. Of course we are going to use the inerrant word of God to back up our claims. We would do the same in speaking with an atheist and they would respond in the same way you do. The Bible has no authority with them because they are not Christian. It is a sad state of affairs that we have let you hijack yet another thread, just so you can continue to promote your heretical views. So let me remind you first of one of our rules.

3.2. Avoid promoting heretical views (e.g., denying core Christian doctrines like the Trinity). These forums uphold essential Christian beliefs, including the deity of Christ, salvation by grace through faith, and the authority of Scripture. While discussions on various theological perspectives are welcome, any post challenging core Christian doctrines must include biblical and expositional support. Additionally, those presenting opposing views must substantively engage with rebuttals rather than merely repeating assertions. Posts failing to meet this standard may be removed.

What you are promoting is heretical to the Christian Faith. It does not matter if you completely believe yourself or not. It does not matter how much you dismiss us and speak against our faith, or what "proofs" you give, or how much you whine and cry like a baby that we won't believe your superior expertise, accuse us of ignorance, and following theology (which you do not even seem to know what theology is and consider it something that should never come into play). What you say is heretical to the Christian Faith. You have stated in another thread that you do not even know what the core doctrines of Christianity are and yet claim to be an expert investigator who investigates something not even knowing what he is investigating. So FYI.
biblical-christianity.com/doctrines-of-the-christian-faith

Core Beliefs:

1️⃣ The Trinity

There is one God in three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each person of the Trinity is fully God, co-equal and co-eternal, yet there is only one God (Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14).

This doctrine is essential because it defines the very nature of God and undergirds the Christian faith. Denying the Trinity leads to a misunderstanding of God’s love, salvation, and the deity of Christ.

2️⃣ The Person of Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. He has existed eternally as God the Son and took on human flesh through the Incarnation to redeem sinners (John 1:1, 14; Colossians 2:9). His sinless life, sacrificial death, bodily resurrection, and ascension into heaven affirm His divine and human natures.

Without this doctrine, salvation would be impossible, as only a sinless and divine Savior could atone for humanity’s sins.

3️⃣ Salvation by Grace Through Faith

Salvation is entirely by God’s grace, received through faith in Christ alone. It is not based on human effort, good works, or religious rituals (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28). Jesus’ atoning death on the cross paid the full penalty for sin, and His resurrection secured eternal life for believers.

This doctrine is critical because it affirms that salvation is a gift from God, not something we can earn or achieve on our own.

4️⃣ The Authority of Scripture

The Bible is the inspired, inerrant, and sufficient Word of God. It is the final authority for faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Scripture is God’s revelation to humanity, teaching us about His character, redemptive plan, and moral will.

Without the authority of Scripture, Christians would lack a solid foundation for truth and doctrine, leading to confusion and false teaching.


5️⃣ The Second Coming of Christ

Jesus Christ will return to judge the living and the dead and establish His eternal kingdom (Acts 1:11, Revelation 22:12-13). His return will fulfill God’s ultimate plan of redemption and bring justice to the world.

This doctrine provides hope and encouragement for believers, reminding us that Christ will triumph over evil, restore creation, and reign in righteousness forever.

You have simply set out to discredit the Bible in its canonized form as the word of God. The question is: Why? Why is that so important to you?
 
It's all perspective David. We have to agree to disagree. When everything is added up, Paul is built on the words of Paul and that is not evidence--it's proof that someone wanted Paul to be able to speak for God. By golly, the Catholics said, if Paul can speak for God then so can we. Men speaking for God became normalized through the process.
You have supplied zero evidence for any of this rubbish. God will hold you accountable for your false teaching, if you don't repent.

....that is according to Paul, Peter had a lesson to learn. So Paul was setting Peter straight? The man the Gospels wrote most about had to be corrected by a man who never met Jesus and isn't mentioned once by the leaders of the Church. If you don't find that peculiar and worth taking a closer look at, then we are going to end up agreeing to disagree.
Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus (and what a meeting!). Paul is mentioned, quite a few times, in the book of Acts and mentioned by Peter, in one of his letters.

I find your denial of biblical truth peculiar (to put it mildly).

If everyone who saw a bright light saw Jesus before they died, wouldn't that be something. Paul's story changed and morphed and that is a sign of being less than truthful.
Stop telling lies!

17 years and two visits. That's being estranged.
That's a self-serving assumption.


If that is what you obtained from what I wrote, I erred. I meant that the Catholics created the AUTHOR named Matthew. The Gospel of Matthew was written by Nicodemus between 30-33 AD and is an eyewitness testimony of Jesus. That is what my analysis shows.
And your analysis is correct, whilst everyone else is wrong! :rolleyes:

Do you not realise how arrogant it is, to treat your own analysis as infallible, whilst denigrating the entirety of Christian scholarship?

Please give me one piece of evidence.
That would be one more piece than you've given...
 
You have supplied zero evidence for any of this rubbish. God will hold you accountable for your false teaching, if you don't repent.
And you have provided zero evidence that Paul can speak for God?
Paul met Jesus on the road to Damascus (and what a meeting!). Paul is mentioned, quite a few times, in the book of Acts and mentioned by Peter, in one of his letters.
Who wrote Acts? A companion of Paul's. No bias there, right?
I find your denial of biblical truth peculiar (to put it mildly).

What you are claiming is not biblical truth it is theology. There is a huge difference.
And your analysis is correct, whilst everyone else is wrong! :rolleyes:
I follow the evidence. I've had to stand alone numerous times throughout my career and I'm doing it again as I complete this investigation.
Do you not realise how arrogant it is, to treat your own analysis as infallible, whilst denigrating the entirety of Christian scholarship?

That would be one more piece than you've given...
You think I like standing alone? When you do a job, do you stand behind your work regardless of what others say? Why shouldn't I? You have every opportunity on here to prove me wrong.
 
You say everything I've presented has been handled and I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when Jesus gave authority to men to speak for him. So I respond the same way as atheists do? Have you connected me to that group because I reject your theology? So in your opinion a person who says he has found three eyewitness testimonies in the Gospels proving Jesus as the Messiah and God is an atheist?
I stand by what I said. And deny what I did not say that you attribute to me. Everything that you have been presented as a rebuttal to your claims, from the Scriptures, you simply say is invalid because you have "proof" that they are invalid, the author is suspect -----in other words supporting your claim that portions of the Bible are not inerrant because you have proved its errancy. Using yourself as the authority on the matter. In your book, we are not allowed to use the Bible as though it were inerrant. In your book it is invalid testimony. An atheist would use the same reasoning. We say, "The Bible says such and such---" they scoff, "Oh the BIBLE says so? I don't believe the Bible and you can't prove it is true."

As to what I did not say, "So in your opinion a person who says he has found three eyewitness testimonies in the Gospel proving Jesus as the Messiah and God is an atheist." I never even mentioned the Messiah or inferred or implied that God is an atheist. At every turn you demonstrate the opposite of one who uses sound reasoning and is trained in forensic investigation. At every single turn. Christians believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Your comment was related to nothing that I posted.
Finding three eyewitness testimonies to prove Jesus isn't an essential Christian belief? Are you saying I must subscribe to theology to be a true Christian? It sure seems like that is the path you are taking here.
If one does not subscribe to the core doctrines of Christianity, and in fact makes an unrelenting effort to disprove and discredit one or more of them, they are not Christian, they are something else that is merely borrowing from certain things in Christianity. There may be periods of learning some of them, but evidently you are way past where that learning should have taken place. In Christianity the trustworthiness of the full content of the Bible is what Christianity is founded on. Without it, there is no foundation. Even the cornerstone, Christ, is removed. What you are teaching is heretical to the Christian Faith. And the Christian Faith (religion, if you will) is the content of its doctrines.
Yes this is where the atheists eat you alive. You have supported this claim through the words of Paul and another unknown author--two men. Where did Jesus state that the words of men that come after me will be the word of God. Yes I object to this THEOLOGY.
Atheist do not eat us alive. They stand condemned because they love darkness and hate the light. But you are denying a very necessary doctrine of Christianity. And whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not, it remains a core and necessary doctrine. And your heretical views will no more convince us of your position than an atheist would. Our witness is the witness of the Holy Spirit with our spirit. It is God revealed knowledge and Christ is the head of his church. He gathers his flock and they are sealed in him by the Holy Spirit. Why is the testimony of your own "investigations" of more value to you than the trustworthiness of the full canon of the Bible being in all its consistency the word of God? Why the need to discredit all but four of the apostles and particularly defame Paul? And how is it possible to say that what the writers (all of them) of the NT is not the word of God and at the same time say that what they say is true, and that not be the word of God?
Does Jesus need to return to do this? What happens when you die? What about Jesus' words that claimed if we believe will not be judged:

He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only born Son of God. (John 3:18)

You die, you are with Jesus--end of story. The beauty of it is that Revelation explains the time gap between heaven and earth. It happens in an instant because in heaven1 hour is like 2,300 years on earth. For those who reject Jesus there is a very powerful message.
So that is two foundational doctrines of Christianity you reject in favor of your own theology and musings?
Incidentally, Jesus told this to Nicodemus--you know, the guy I found evidence to prove who wrote the Gospel of Matthew. So are you telling me I need to reject the words of Jesus to believe in this theology? This is something I won't do. Does that make me a heretic or an atheist in your opinion?
You only claim you found evidence of that. And it is entirely irrelevant. One more time---learn the difference between theology and doctrine and say what you mean. It appears that you even reject all concept of theology from the Christian Faith and yet the Christian Faith is built from the study of God. No one is telling you to reject the words of Jesus, we are asking you to believe them. Not your own "proofing" that he who is God and came to purchase a people for his church, has allowed liars and self promoters to invade the documents and writings he gave to us. Read the rule I posted earlier and everything that is in it, including the part that deals with engaging sincerely with what others say instead of just repeating your position.

I will leave the conversation you have successfully derailed, and its promotion of things heretical to the Christian Faith. I also remove myself from this exchange as to moderating it and leave it to others so as to avoid the flaming accusations you have made against me in the past. If it were up to me, you would be gone, but we do not make unilateral decisions when it comes to permanent banning. You could start to play by the rules and I hope you do.
 
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. They stand condemned because they love darkness and hate the light.

People think Christians should be nice but my husband wasn't "nice" when I was learning about Christ.

He raked me over the coals from one end to the other...

Christians are kind because they speak the truth. Not because it sounds pleasant to the unsaved.
 
I read your post and I'm scratching my head because you've misunderstood or misinterpreted everything I've written. Sorry we have this divide, but one thing, by atheists eating you up I meant in a debate. The root cause is that you refuse to believe that I follow and believe fully in Jesus, I just don't subscribe to your theology that gets you to the same place. You can't seem to separate the two.
It's not a refusal to believe that you "follow and believe fully in Jesus". Even if one believes that you do, it does not qualify you to take your reasons over scripture as though your notice of supposed contradictions and so on (even those, the ones you have shown, are full of bad logic) qualifies you to reject whole portions of scripture as authoritative.

I told you awhile back, that you were going to run into this, because the rules demand you use scripture to make your points. You think yourself to have done so, but your logic —expert or not— was vapid and dependent on self-asserted authority. Nobody is going to accept that here, and when you self-promote —particularly over what we accept as scripture— we are going to find every way possible to show you wrong. We have —at least the staff have, and I know others— shown remarkable self-control. Way back, now, I quit answering you because I don't like to talk with you. But sometimes, you say something so ridiculous, illogical and counter-scriptural, heretical, that I desire very much to knock such low-hanging fruit off the tree. Particularly nasty is when you self-condemn with things as, "The root cause is that you refuse to believe that I follow and believe fully in Jesus," as though we should accept what you say. Do you not see yourself refusing to believe something?

You have set yourself against Scripture, and that is always a bad move.
 
Back on topic here I think it's pretty clear that the first beast in Revelation is the Catholic Church and the second beast is the Pope. There is even a few comments in Revelation telling us how the Catholics will take over the Church through a dead man--Peter (Revelation 13:4 and 13). Both beasts will come from Peter who has been executed.
Okay, it's over! You seem to be moving around from thread to thread to confuse things and waste time. Personally I think your a false teacher and your accusations of the apostle will not be allowed to continue. If you would like to stay a member, then please stop.
 
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People think Christians should be nice but my husband wasn't "nice" when I was learning about Christ.

He raked me over the coals from one end to the other...

Christians are kind because they speak the truth. Not because it sounds pleasant to the unsaved.
I like the way Voddie puts it. Many Christians think we should obey the 11th commandment, "Be Nice" and the rest don't matter, Of course the minute you step on the toes of their assertions they disobey the 11th too, but it is ok if they do it.

I grew up in Christian Science and my mother stuck with it even after my father passed. My brother was the first of our siblings to be brought to Christ, and he was not "nice" about trying to pull her out of that cult. Daily he hounded her, even made her cry at times, but he was not mean. He simply pounded away, breaking the bonds of a cult in the same way cult de-programmers do. And broken they were! All glory and praise to God.
 
And you have provided zero evidence that Paul can speak for God?
Who wrote Acts? A companion of Paul's. No bias there, right?
The born-again believers' authority is the word of God. . .that is not your authority, therefore, there are no grounds on which to settle disagreements, making such conversation a waste of time.
What you are claiming is not biblical truth it is theology. There is a huge difference.
Your assertion is without Biblical merit in the absence of a Biblical demonstration of the error of this "theology."
I follow the evidence. I've had to stand alone numerous times throughout my career and I'm doing it again as I complete this investigation.

You think I like standing alone? When you do a job, do you stand behind your work regardless of what others say? Why shouldn't I? You have every opportunity on here to prove me wrong.
Can't be done without a common authority to which both subscribe.
 
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And you have provided zero evidence that Paul can speak for God?

Who wrote Acts? A companion of Paul's. No bias there, right?


What you are claiming is not biblical truth it is theology. There is a huge difference.

I follow the evidence. I've had to stand alone numerous times throughout my career and I'm doing it again as I complete this investigation.

You think I like standing alone? When you do a job, do you stand behind your work regardless of what others say? Why shouldn't I? You have every opportunity on here to prove me wrong.
The Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God. If you don't believe that, then we have no agreed basis on which to have a discussion.

You are pitting your conclusions, from your own investigations (for which you have provided zero evidence, only empty claims), against a large chunk of the Holy Spirit inspired Bible.

The devil has snared you with deception. Why does that happen? Because you have not received the love of the truth.
 
And you have provided zero evidence that Paul can speak for God?

Who wrote Acts? A companion of Paul's. No bias there, right?
Luke is not where I see the bias.

It's pretty obvious that you denigrate Scripture in order to deny its authority over the Catholic Church.

"No bias there, right?"
 
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I like the way Voddie puts it. Many Christians think we should obey the 11th commandment, "Be Nice" and the rest don't matter, Of course the minute you step on the toes of their assertions they disobey the 11th too, but it is ok if they do it.

I grew up in Christian Science and my mother stuck with it even after my father passed. My brother was the first of our siblings to be brought to Christ, and he was not "nice" about trying to pull her out of that cult. Daily he hounded her, even made her cry at times, but he was not mean. He simply pounded away, breaking the bonds of a cult in the same way cult de-programmers do. And broken they were! All glory and praise to God.

Hallelujah !

I don't know anything about cult deprogrammers but that sounds very close to my husband's behavior.

I wasn't close enough to my husband during that time for him to make me cry ever, but I do recall being red in the face angry, and wanting to potentially throw things at him way more than once.

He never shied away from telling me everything he believed Islam and the god of Islam was though, and how wrong I was and why ..

He just kept marching on with the truth until I submitted to it.

He said he knew I was going to be saved but he won't tell me what led him to believe it enough to put up with me... I was not okay when I met him... I might have had questions, but I did not like the answers.
 
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Hallelujah !

I don't know anything about cult deprogrammers but that sounds very close to my husband's behavior.

I wasn't close enough to my husband during that time for him to make me cry ever, but I do recall being red in the face angry, and wanting to potentially throw things at him way more than once.

He never shied away from telling me everything he believed Islam and the god of Islam was though, and how wrong I was and why ..

He just kept marching on with the truth until I submitted to it.

He said he knew I was going to be saved but he won't tell me what led him to believe it enough to put up with me... I was not okay when I met him... I might have had questions, but I did not like the answers.
I'm the same way with three of my close friends. Two of them, I don't doubt I would give my life for, in a skinny minute. I know, when the day comes, if I am condemned I would change my mind if I could, but I have told God more than once, if me going to hell would mean them in heaven, then so be it. Please! They are worth more than I am, and, what's even better, if there was a way for me to know they looked God full in the face, and survived, I want to know it. It is better than I can even hold in my heart, the idea of them knowing God as they are known by God.
 
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