something like scales fell from his eyes

[Carbon]

I believe that when the Holy Spirit regenerates a lost sinner, the indwelling Spirit gives the regenerate a new perception that makes all of life and experience look different. It's not whether one feels saved or knows he or she is saved or not. That's a who;e different subject.

I believe there is a huge difference in perception. An unregenerate person could never even come close to comprehending this new spiritual sense.

 

[Carbon]

I was listening to RC Sproul the other day talking about assurance and he divided people into 4 groups.
1) people not saved and know it
2) people saved and know it
3) people saved and not know it
4) people not saved and not know it

Seems to me people in group "3" didn't receive a "radical change" or they would be assured of their salvation.

I'm not talking about a Damascus road experience. A regenerate sinner goes from death to life. From under the power of principalities and powers of this present darkness.

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Eph 6.

Before regeneration, we didn't have to worry about these things. We were part of the system, it was as natural as breathing the air.

So, after this new birth, are we aware of it?
I believe we are.

14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Cor 2,

 

[Carbon]

When the scales fell from your eyes, you may not know the exact time, but you may remember something that finally broke through as normal. Things that you perceived as divine that you couldn't before your regeneration.

One example is "the beauty of holiness." Isn't this a sweetness your new taste enjoys?

Isn't this why the Psalmist could say, that the word is sweeter also than honey, and the drippings of the honeycomb?
More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb. Ps 19:10.


Just like what Jesus said on his journey to Samaria when his starving disciples went to town to look for food.

32 But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33 So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” 34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work. John 4.

Did you not perceive these things as divine, that the unregenerate cannot? Surely you have.

Is this not a radical change?

 

[Eleanor]

An instant.
Same.
From death to life? Very radical.
Yes, kinda as you described before (in a different thread) of an infant being born into this new world.
Hardly
Id say, absolutely not.

It's either all. . .or nothing salvific

 

[Eleanor]

I was listening to RC Sproul the other day talking about assurance and he divided people into 4 groups.
1) people not saved and know it
2) people saved and know it
3) people saved and not know it
4) people not saved and not know it

Sounds like the old Arab Proverb:

He who knows not, and knows not he knows not, he is a fool—shun him;
he who knows not, and knows he knows not, he is simple—teach him;
he who knows, and knows not he knows, he is asleep—wake him;
he who knows, and knows he knows, he is wise—follow him. '

Seems to me people in group "3" didn't receive a "radical change" or they would be assured of their salvation.
Sproul goes on to say he knows the moment he was saved as it was a "radical change", but his wife doesn't know when she was saved suggesting a "non radical change".
I was born surrounded by grand parents, parents, all aunts and uncles being believers so I didn't know to any extent the idea on not believing. I have no clue when I was "regenerated" which, if "radical change" be a 100% certainty then either I forgot the day I radically changed or maybe I haven't be "radically changed/regenerated. (Sure pray it's not the latter)
Aside: Granted, "radical change" has not been defined.
Aside2: I also recall believing with certainty that Santa really existed ....dang Jewish kid next store said Santa was not real and I didn't believe him til I saw an elastic holding up Santa's beard which "radically changed" my opinion. *giggle*

 

[Carbon]

Some people have an instant change...for others it's gradual.

Not everybody has a "Paul like" experience.

Continuing on a radical change.

Regeneration changes the nature of the soul so that one's life is different ever after.
Our sins come from our sin nature, it was who we were, its what we desired. Scripture teaches, that all our thoughts and desires were against God continually
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6.

As Voddie Baucham says, "The world, the flesh, and the devil did not have to seek you out, you rested in them, because they gave you exactly what you wanted. The devil knows your name and you knew his voice. The world was a comfortable place for you. It was all you wanted because your very nature craved it."


This change (regeneration) is not always outwardly visible, at least not for a while, but, what happens on the inside changes one's very nature. And eventually, this inner change will manifest itself in a different kind of life, a different pattern of thinking, feeling, and acting.

Some people have an instant change...for others it's gradual.

Everyone regenerated has had an instant change.

Not everybody has a "Paul like" experience.

Never said all did. And this has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

 

[Carbon]

Some people have an instant change...for others it's gradual.

Not everybody has a "Paul like" experience.

Here is a radical change for you.

At one time you hated God. Now you love God.

Is that radical enough?


At one time you were at enmity with God, then in an instant, you became a seeker of God.

Radical enough?

 

[Carbon]

Some people have an instant change...for others it's gradual.

True grace brings lasting change. And I believe we agree, that if the change is only temporary, it is not a result of genuine conversion. And without the change from the old heart of stone, to the new heart, neither moral change nor religious activity has any lasting value. As Paul said: For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Gal 6:15.

 

[prism]

Regeneration is very subjective, where an objective God does an actual change within a person. I believe that change is not necessary instantaneous nor necessarily a slow changer, but ultimately the heart and affections are changed towards the things of God.

 

[Carbon]

Regeneration is very subjective, where an objective God does an actual change within a person.

I'm not following, sorry. Do you mean it depends on the person?

I believe that change is not necessary instantaneous nor necessarily a slow changer,

So, someone can be half-regenerated?

but ultimately the heart and affections are changed towards the things of God.

So, gradually people become Christians?

I don't think I'm understanding you correctly. Sorry.

 

[prism]

I'm not following, sorry. Do you mean it depends on the person?

No, it depends only God, but He changes our attitudes, desires, and understanding of things spiritual.

So, someone can be half-regenerated?

No, no more than someone can be half-born.

So, gradually people become Christians?

I don't think I'm understanding you correctly. Sorry.

I see what you are saying. In my case (subjective), I was regenerated one night, but it took me 15 months later to say 'yes' to Jesus. I'm counting that night and the 15 months as regeneration, (in those months I still did drugs, the occult etc.-but increasingly convicted of their wrongness )whereas you are counting just the night (instantaneous). When I look back it was just that night, where I was beginning to be drawn to Him (in starts and stops) until I reached a point where I never looked back.

 

[Red Baker]

Carbon thank you for starting a new thread on this topic, I felt guilty discussing this subject in the other thread.

I read everything since I was last here and want to go back over them once more before posting.

 

[Red Baker]

David, you dear sir, are 100% wrong.

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus is the classic example of what I'm saying! The leader of the Jew did not even know what it meant to be born again, yet, he was showing perfect evidence of one which had been born again!

This is, again, complete nonsense! Nicodemus needed to be born again, which is why Jesus spoke to him about it. He was showing the lack of understanding of spiritual things that goes with spiritual blindness, so Jesus explained it to him. Nicodemus kept talking about natural things, with no spiritual insight whatever. This is the condition of the natural (i.e. unregenerate/not born again) man (1 Cor. 2:14).

His child like confession in verse two is as good of a confession as any man on this forum or in any church throughout thsi world! His confession so much different from the other Pharisees, who accused Christ of doing miracles through the power of the prince of the devils. He like John the Baptist showed forth the fruits of the Spirit, though ignorance of much truths.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb; but, Nicodemus was told that "you must be born again".

David, how in the world does anyone know what is happening during the new birth? That is impossible. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. The new birth is like the wind that bloweth, totally invisible. It comes and goes when it pleaseth, and works where it pleaseth, without any permission. Man is 100% passive, God alone is the only active person working! He creates a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ.

You don't need to know the correct nomenclature, to know that the light has been switched on inside you, that Jesus took your sins and punishment on the cross, that you are forgiven and that you now love Jesus and want to follow him. This is what happens when one is born of God; and it happens immediately.

Have you ever experienced it?

The analogy I used above when a child is born into this world, is no different concerning our spiritual birth. What does a child know, concerning his birth into this world, without someone revealing to them where they were born, even who where their parents. We only know about the new birth by scriptures. All truths we have learned from the scriptures, one being the doctrine of the new birth. Even this truth took a few years to fully understand perfectly, bits and pieces are revealed slowly to all of us.

You don't need to know the right words to know that you have new life inside you and have been forgiven because Jesus died for you.
..............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
I brought this here so I can answer this post by David. RB

 

[Red Baker]

David 1701
This is, again, complete nonsense! Nicodemus needed to be born again, which is why Jesus spoke to him about it. He was showing the lack of understanding of spiritual things that goes with spiritual blindness, so Jesus explained it to him. Nicodemus kept talking about natural things, with no spiritual insight whatever. This is the condition of the natural (i.e. unregenerate/not born again) man (1 Cor. 2:14).

"This is, again, complete nonsense!" Only to a person whose eyes are not open by the Spirit of God on a particular teaching which is under consideration.

"Nicodemus needed to be born again, which is why Jesus spoke to him about it." David, you can never prove that with John 3:1-8, as I will show you. This is not why this discourse is recorded by the Holy Ghost for our learning; you like the Armenians are laboring to take this discourse and explain it away, as though Jesus was laboring to show Nicodemus his lost condition, and his need to be born again, as though he could hear what he was saying~you are showing bible ignorance in light of so many scriptures, that teach the impossibility of man hearing without first being given the power to hear! You are teaching against what you profess to believe in. Inconsistency is the hallmark of error being present.

"He was showing the lack of understanding of spiritual things that goes with spiritual blindness, so Jesus explained it to him. Nicodemus kept talking about natural things, with no spiritual insight whatever." David, we all have been there, especially so in our first coming to Christ, and if the truth is known, it took a few years for our understanding to be where we are now. I'm 76 and still learning and been in this race for fifty years, each year our doctrine is being more perfectly forming according to the scriptures ~ but for sure, looking back, I'm ashamed of my lack of understanding, even while teaching and preaching in churches, and writing booklets.

David 1701~John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb; but, Nicodemus was told that "you must be born again".

David prove it~btw, you cannot. Jesus never told John personally that he needed to be born again, that's a false assumption on your understanding.

What our Lord said was these words:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

These are our Lord's first words to Nicodemus~and Jesus said these words based upon what Nicodemus said to him in verse two. So, following the context carefully we understand the meaning of verse three by carefully hearing what Nicodemus said to Jesus.

John 3:2​

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

David, you are not hearing what Nicodemus said to Jesus, his words are so different than the other rulers of the Pharisees. Our Lord even said ~ Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Yet, by Nicodemus' confession before us, he proved that he saw the working of God's kingdom through the miracles that the Lord did among them. Jesus was saying, more to us than to Nicodemus, that a man can be born of God with very little spiritual understanding on the surface, yet, a humble spirit confessing that there is a God in heaven, must never be rejected by us, following the step of our Saviour. Nicodemus' child like confession, proved his new man within him, though not yet instructed in the things of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 12:20​

“A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.”

Where there is hope of life, be it ever so small, we should labor in love to flame the smoking flax till we bring forth judgment unto victory.

Coming back to finish your post to me.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon thank you for starting a new thread on this topic, I felt guilty discussing this subject in the other thread.

Welcome

I read everything since I was last here and want to go back over them once more before posting.

Have at it.

 

[Carbon]

Before the days of Finny, that was always the case. There were no altar calls and people grew up in Christian homes and attended churches that actually taught about Jesus. At some point they either believed or didn't believe. Even so---- going from not believing to believing is a radical (extreme) change. It is extreme because it is the difference between life and death. Someone who has always heard the gospel and had it lived out in front of them and in their own lives, may not recognize the moment of change as someone who has never been around it and lived their lives in antipithy of all things Christian and religious. It is also possible that those who grew up in the faith and "always" believed it, were reborn before they ever reached an age of noticing a change.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Before the days of Finny, that was always the case.

Indeed

There were no altar calls and people grew up in Christian homes and attended churches that actually taught about Jesus.

Right, no decisional regeneration was practiced.

At some point they either believed or didn't believe.

Amen to that. If I may just add to what you are saying. When a sinner is regenerated (John 3:3) and they can see the kingdom and therefore desire Christ, they believe. It isnt a decision from them that decides or causes belief. It is God Himself doing a work.

Even so---- going from not believing to believing is a radical (extreme) change. It is extreme because it is the difference between life and death.

Amen!

 

[Mr GLee]

After Regeneration, is there a new kind of knowing? Paul's conversion is recorded like this:
And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; Acts 9:18.

Here is what @Red Baker had to say in another thread.



Personally, I believe true grace brings a new knowing. The mind is enlighteneed with new thoughts. That old saying, holy affections are not heat without light. They always arise from new information - spiritual instruction that was previously unknown or is now seen in a new light.

I agree as some say, is a gradual process, but this is the working out what God put in. However, I believe from the new birth, we see all things as new. Though, we may notr realize all things right away.

Great example

Faith "let there be" as a labor of love in action.

Another demonstration other than the "blind see" the power of the living word of Christ, the power working in our new born again faith the labor of love .

It has to do with doubting Thomas who like the other apostles had doubts. Doubting is not the oposite of faith . No faith or unbelief is the apposing .

Satan the accuser of the brethren 24/7 would have mankind believe the lie no difference between doubt and belief as if you Doubt you are dead . . the doctrine of demons

In other words. Satan the god of this world, his lying words . . keep you eyes on the temporal seen not the unseen eternal . Who believes in a invisible God. Fools?

.Before making a decision between two things. Doubt is needed to chose the light of the gospel .

It was first demonstrated with the 11 apostles they rejoiced when he breathed on them the breath of new born again spirit life. . Receive ye the Holy Ghost: .And it was God alone golden good .

Then by faith the unseen things of Christ the power of the Christ Father was revealed that worked in the Son of man, Jesus .Just as it does with believer today yoked with the labor of the Holy Father

Not attributing it to dying flesh .It was repeated with Thomas (the witness of two )

Showing Thomas a spirit has not flesh and bones The Father then gave Jesus the apostle the living words. He lovingly commanded Thomas "be not faithless" (no power), but believe the living word .Thomas believing in his new heart then the confession of his new born again faith Christ labor of love in action.

Many that seek after the temporal dying things of this world teaching the proof was in the temporal dying. what the eyes see. The loving commandment remains be not faithless . Give glory to the unseen eternal

John 20. .18-30 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her. Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

All 12 were freely given to newness of life living words. . .be not faithless, but believing

 

[Carbon]

I see what you are saying. In my case (subjective), I was regenerated one night, but it took me 15 months later to say 'yes' to Jesus. I'm counting that night and the 15 months as regeneration, (in those months I still did drugs, the occult etc.-but increasingly convicted of their wrongness )whereas you are counting just the night (instantaneous). When I look back it was just that night, where I was beginning to be drawn to Him (in starts and stops) until I reached a point where I never looked back.

Okay, I think I understand what you are saying now.

The scriptures hint that change is gradual, considering Romans 12:2, Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

It is because of our new nature that there is a gradual renewal taking place, So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. 2 Cor 4:16.

Sometimes we do not realize or notice for a while. Personally, I like to say, we find ourselves believing. It's not that we decided to one day, but we find one day that we do believe and as Romans 10 teaches, because we believe, we do confess Jesus as Lord.

 

[Josheb]

After Regeneration, is there a new kind of knowing? Paul's conversion is recorded like this:
And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; Acts 9:18.

Here is what @Red Baker had to say in another thread.



Personally, I believe true grace brings a new knowing. The mind is enlighteneed with new thoughts. That old saying, holy affections are not heat without light. They always arise from new information - spiritual instruction that was previously unknown or is now seen in a new light.

I agree as some say, is a gradual process, but this is the working out what God put in. However, I believe from the new birth, we see all things as new. Though, we may notr realize all things right away.

I agree. Regeneration, and the changes that come from regeneration, are immediate. However, I'm not sure I would use Acts 9"18's scales to assert that. Since there is no report of scales falling from any other converts eyes Paul's scales appear to be a condition unique to Paul, especially if the verse is to be read literally. We know from the gospels the Isaiah prophecy of blindness, deafness, and inability to repent was fulfilled and the keys to the kingdom in which sight, hearing, and ability was given and given prior to Christ's sacrifice. Were the apostles regenerate prior to Calvary? Were they regenerate prior to Pentecost? Was what the saw and understood prior to Calvary evidence of the post-Pentecost vision and understanding only to a lesser degree? Or did the resurrection and the post resurrection teachings, or the Pentecost indwelling of the Spirit bring about an entirely different kind of seeing, knowledge, and understanding? What we do know for certain is...

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for me.

Although Paul is writing specifically about Peter's hypocrisy and double-standard teaching of Jew and Gentile converts, that declaration is true of all converts in all circumstances. If a person has been crucified with Christ, then s/he is new and different. They no longer live. Christ lives in them. Christ came to dwell in Saul and he became Paul. The scales are the result of that change, that newness, that differentness. The apostles had three years of intimate fellowship and teaching followed by 40 days of post-resurrection teaching followed by Pentecost. Saul had a lifetime of religious instruction (by God, not just the Pharisees) plus his own three years of instruction. which resulted in his new sight, new way of knowing, and new knowledge were self-evident to anyone in which God was also at work, to anyone who bothered to listen.

As Paul put it later, "righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." One minute were not righteous, and the next we are. I wonder who it is that would argue the righteous see and know no differently than the unrighteous . What case would be made for the sinner's crucifixion and indwelling not resulting in new sight and new knowledge?

Romans 6:2-7
How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into his death? Therefore, we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for he who has died is freed from sin.

Which of those events is instantaneous and which is gradual? Can the freed man (or woman) be the same as the slave? The experience of freedom itself is new sight that brings a new way of seeing. There's a n easy way to prove this. I jest (lest someone think I am serious), but assault a police officer. Then, when convicted and sentenced, halfway through your sentence assault a jail deputy. They will put you in solitary confinement for the remainer of your term. You will have experienced life among the criminal and then a criminal life of solitude and near-abject control by others. See if release from that condition does not bring a new way of seeing and new knowledge .

Of course, a much easier way, one that will take less time, is to simply sit with God and contemplate your sin, its depth, and what you were like prior to God's choice, call, gifts, and His changing you.