Six Problems Inherent in Dispensationalism: Examples

[Josheb]

There is a recently posted op in this board titled, "The Rapture/Resurrection of the Church is near." I asked the op's author what "near" meant. The question had to be asked a couple of time before an answer was forthcoming but when the answer did finally arrive the answer was, "When is it going to happen? Some say it could happen on a Jewish festival this October. Perhaps the The Feast of Tabernacles. Yup, this October. Then again next October may still be in the window." Although there is a little ambiguity in that answer it is an answer that is more specific than most claims of nearness beget in Eschatology boards. According to that post the rapture is coming this October or next. I wanted to make sure I understood that correctly, so I asked to make sure. The answer to that second inquiry was, eventually, "No, you do not have that correct. lets start out with this...I don't know when the rapture will happen. "No, you do not have that correct. lets start out with this...I don't know when the rapture will happen. Now, what I do believe is that the rapture is much sooner than you think."

So the answer to the question asked, "How near, exactly? What, specifically, do you mean by "near"? Would you please tell us how much time we have to prepare[?]" is sometime either this October or next October but I do not know when the rapture will occur. I noted changing the assertion from "near" to "sooner" doesn't help pin down when the rapture will occur and provided the dictionary definitions of "near" and "soon." I was asked if I wanted a specific date, and answered in the affirmative, especially if such an exact answer could be provided. New answers to "What does the word "near" mean to you?" were then "Next month? Tomorrow? January 1st? 2030 is near," and an attempt was made to put the onus onto me to explain the meaning of that op's near. My response was to reiterate my singular interest in when, exactly, the rapture is going to occur because the op asserted the rapture is near. The response was to resort to ad hominem and call me an idiot (that has now been edited out of the post).



I am recounting the matter here because that thread evidences the kind of criticisms I have posted in my "Six Problems Inherent in Dispensationalism" ops. I suppose I could take a poll and see how many Christians here believe the rapture will occur next month, but I suspect the number of those affirming the rapture occurring within the next 34 days would be zero. I doubt even other Dispensational Premillennialists/modern futurists actually believe they have only 34 days left on the planet. In all likelihood this October will come and go and we'll all still be here to continue posting in CCAM. The same will hold true for next October as well. If I am wrong, then none of us will be here and I'll confess my error to Jesus when he gathers me with the rest of the Church . If I am correct, however, then what should be done with the false prognostication? What should be done about the thinking that prompted the erroneous op?

The six problems inherent in Dispensationalism are:

1. It radically departs from orthodoxy
2. It results in hypocrisy
3. It propagates false teachings
4. It leads to a delusional or dissociated life
5. There is a lack of in-house accountability
6. It compromises core doctrine

While I think all six of those criticisms could be brought to bear on that thread, I'd like to emphasize only three: the false teaching, the dissociated life, and the lack of accountability.

The truth or falsity of the op's assertion will be proven in a month or a year..... even though "near" could mean as far away as 2030. The truth or falsity of the claim will not be up for debate because the passage of time will irrefutably prove whether or not this October or next is correct. It is my intent to revisit the claim at the end of next month. Until then I will simply point out the difficult it takes to get a modern futurist to specify their claims. I will leave the reader to speculate why that is but will not that the avoidance of the question "What does 'near' mean in that claim?" is usually couched in hiding behind Matthew 24:36 and the failure to recognize the contradiction inherent between claiming something will happen during a specified time frame and then claiming the time cannot be known. In other words, it is an example of dissociative living. The claimant is living in a manner that is inherently separated from the truth of scripture (as they assert it), from the teaching of Christianity pertaining to integrity, from the history of DPism constantly making false end times claims, and from the reality the assertion is not going to be correct. The claims made will be incorrect and either the claimant believes it but is not doing much to live in a manner consistent with having only 34 more days on the planet, or in a manner consistent the history of false claims and the inevitability of claim made in that op knowingly not coming true. There's also the question of vacillation. Why tell a group of other Christians the occurrence of the rapture is near and then hesitate to be specific? We may disagree eschatologically, but we are all on the same side - the side of Christ! Why then was there no caution expressed by other Dispensationalists/modern futurists in the entire thread? Where was the in-house inquiry asking about for a lack of date/timeframe setting? Where is the in-house inquiry coming from fellow Dispensationalists asking what the author will do when October 2025 comes and goes and we're all still here? Is it correct that when a Dispensationalist makes false claims it undermines the eschatological conversation of all Dispensationalists, not just non-Dispensationalists? When October comes and goes, will there be any in-house comment admonishing the practice and encouraging our brother to not make the same mistake again?

Time till prove the claim false. Making claims of "near" and then vacillating is not consistent. Making false claims knowing the entire eschatology has never gotten one prediction correct in its entire history places a burden on Dispensationalists to eventually get a prediction correct but this board has many examples of false claims, and no one has done anything about it. The practice continues unabated.

That op demonstrated three of the six problems inherent in Dispensational Premillennialism.

 

[LeviR]

Christ will come to rapture the faithful. They will then come together to execute God’s judgments upon His people and the nations.
Afterwards, the kingdom of God will be established on earth. A 1,000 year reign.
At the end of Christ’s reign, he will turn over the kingdom to his God. Then God will be all and in all.

 

[Josheb]

Christ will come to rapture the faithful................

What, specifically, is this op about? Is it about the rapture, or is it about the problems inherent in Dispensationalism?

 

[Alive]

What, specifically, is this op about? Is it about the rapture, or is it about the problems inherent in Dispensationalism?

The views on the ‘rapture’ are important to Dispensationalism…in general and also specifically.

 

[Josheb]

The views on the ‘rapture’ are important to Dispensationalism…in general and also specifically.

Indeed, they are, but that is not what this op is specifically about. It was a thread on the rapture that prompted this op, but this op is about the evidence that thread provided supporting the six-op criticism of Dispensational Premillennialism (DP). That thread evidence a false teaching common only in DPism as far as content, and common solely to DPism in practice (no other theology prompts its adherents to (chronically) make false prognostications. That thread evidenced the lack of in-house accountability (and the lack of responsiveness to external efforts at accountability), and that thread evidenced the disconnection between thought, word, and practice.

Perhaps I should go back to that thread and ask all the ask all the participants...

• whether they think the rapture will occur next month
• how knowing they have less than forty days remaining on the earth changes their life (anyone closing bank accounts? )
• what they'll do when the prediction doesn't come true
• what they think DPers should do (or shouldn't do) when one of their own errs like that
• what they think of those who claim to believe he's coming in 34 days (or a year) but don't change their lives in any way
• whether it is correct to make predictions at all
• whether it is okay to make predictions and do nothing else about the "fact" everyone's leaving the planet real soon
• what effect they think failed predictions have on those still in need of the gospel

...and other related inquiries. Think any of that would be tolerated with manners and respect if I went back there and asked those questions?

 

[Alive]

Indeed, they are, but that is not what this op is specifically about. It was a thread on the rapture that prompted this op, but this op is about the evidence that thread provided supporting the six-op criticism of Dispensational Premillennialism (DP). That thread evidence a false teaching common only in DPism as far as content, and common solely to DPism in practice (no other theology prompts its adherents to (chronically) make false prognostications. That thread evidenced the lack of in-house accountability (and the lack of responsiveness to external efforts at accountability), and that thread evidenced the disconnection between thought, word, and practice.

Perhaps I should go back to that thread and ask all the ask all the participants...

• whether they think the rapture will occur next month
• how knowing they have less than forty days remaining on the earth changes their life (anyone closing bank accounts? )
• what they'll do when the prediction doesn't come true
• what they think DPers should do (or shouldn't do) when one of their own errs like that
• what they think of those who claim to believe he's coming in 34 days (or a year) but don't change their lives in any way
• whether it is correct to make predictions at all
• whether it is okay to make predictions and do nothing else about the "fact" everyone's leaving the planet real soon
• what effect they think failed predictions have on those still in need of the gospel

...and other related inquiries. Think any of that would be tolerated with manners and respect if I went back there and asked those questions?

You are welcome to, of course, but that horse has been well beaten.

 

[Josheb]

You are welcome to, of course, but that horse has been well beaten.

I, for one, will continue to do so until Dispensationalists are persuaded to either reform Dispensationalist teachings and practices or they leave for more scriptural alternatives. Obvious examples like the one provided can persuade. Hopefully they will.

 

[Alive]

I, for one, will continue to do so until Dispensationalists are persuaded to either reform Dispensationalist teachings and practices or they leave for more scriptural alternatives. Obvious examples like the one provided can persuade. Hopefully they will.

Your zeal is commendable on this issue.
And you do bring much to this table.
Personally, I am more interested to see more discussion on Christ and Him crucified.
Agreed, it all has a place, so I find no fault.

 

[Alive]

I, for one, will continue to do so until Dispensationalists are persuaded to either reform Dispensationalist teachings and practices or they leave for more scriptural alternatives. Obvious examples like the one provided can persuade. Hopefully they will.

Your zeal is commendable on this issue.
And you do bring much to this table.
Personally, I am more interested to see more discussion on Christ and Him crucified.
Agreed, it all has a place, so I find no fault

 

[Mr GLee]

There is a recently posted op in this board titled, "The Rapture/Resurrection of the Church is near." I asked the op's author what "near" meant. The question had to be asked a couple of time before an answer was forthcoming but when the answer did finally arrive the answer was, "When is it going to happen? Some say it could happen on a Jewish festival this October. Perhaps the The Feast of Tabernacles. Yup, this October. Then again next October may still be in the window." Although there is a little ambiguity in that answer it is an answer that is more specific than most claims of nearness beget in Eschatology boards. According to that post the rapture is coming this October or next. I wanted to make sure I understood that correctly, so I asked to make sure. The answer to that second inquiry was, eventually, "No, you do not have that correct. lets start out with this...I don't know when the rapture will happen. "No, you do not have that correct. lets start out with this...I don't know when the rapture will happen. Now, what I do believe is that the rapture is much sooner than you think."

Thanks I would offer.

The near seems in one way to represent the drawing or magnetic of power. Sort of like a lamp unto out feet its just over the hill'

Near can be used differently . It would seem the father of lies would make it all one in the same which he does with many words hiding the spiritual understanding (Faith)

Nearness. . . In near and dear to one another.

Like the parable of what I call "The waiting long suffering Father"

Luke 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

Near. . seeing things the eye cannot see (faith) The father gave him the powerful faith to come. He had no faith as power of his own that could please Christ prior the lamp unto his feet.

Sealed with a born again kiss . . to confession of faith (unseen eternal things of God) I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight

Psalm 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Psalm 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

Psalm 73:28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord God, that I may declare all thy works.

 

[Josheb]

Thanks I would offer.

The near seems....

Thank, but this op is not about the near.

This op is about problems inherent within Dispensational Premillennialism and its modern futurist kin as evidenced by the other thread. Discussion of near can be had in that thread, not this one. This op highlights the visible avoidance, the hesitancy to answer the simplest and most fundamental inquiries, the inconsistency of asserting a time while also saying the time is unknown, the lack of in-house exhortation for caution (or restraint), the lack of responsiveness to correcting both content and method, and the inevitable abject falsity of the assertion.

These sorts of things do not happen in any other eschatology, but for some reason Dispensationalism teaches it, teaches they are acceptable, sees no reason to change, and on most occasions glorifies those who do these things. They are collectively inherent in DPism and DPism alone (along with the other problems I cited in my six criticisms). The end result is a divided Chruch and a bad witness to those outside it.

 

[Ghada]

That op demonstrated three of the six problems inherent in Dispensational Premillennialism.

In order to know any truth or error of dispensationalism, we need to know what it is. What is it to you?

Here is a brief copying from a bing search:

Dispensationalism was developed in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby, and it was made famous by the Scofield Reference Bible. This theology makes a strong distinction between OT Israel and the NT church. Israel is a “physical and national” people, while the church is a “spiritual” people.

So far, it's correct that the OT Israel of God was made as a one nation of people by birth, law, and conversion.

The physical nation of Israel is not now the chosen people of God, since there is no more OT for them to be confirmed in by law and atonement.

The one nation of God on earth, is now His holy people redeemed by the blood of the risen Lamb of God.

Classical dispensationalism also holds that the OT promises must be understood as “literally” applying to national Israel.

The coming of the promised seed Jesus Christ, was indeed first for the Jew, but also now the Jew and Gentile alike. Otherwise, the promises of God to Abraham's natural seed, will not be kept on earth, until the Lord Jesus Christ returns to rule the nations from Jersusalem. The Jew will then be given the land promised, that Abraham walked on, and be made the natural priesthood for all His kiingdom on earth, as first offered and rejected at Sinai.

There are seven dispensations in this scheme (hence the name): (1) Innocence (Eden); (2) Conscience (fall to flood); (3) Human Government (Noah to Babel); (4) Promise (Abraham to Egypt); (5) Law (Moses to John the Baptist); (6) Grace (church age); and (7) Kingdom (millennium).

This is just pseudo-theological and philosophic rationalizations. All men are still created in the image of God, and all men still have the first commandment not to disoby God, and all men that transgress are dead to God.

All babes born into the world are innocent doing neither good nor evil.

All consciences of men are lightened by Christ coming into the world to seek and love God. Some do, some don't, some sear their consciences to God.

Man has had gvt given him on earth since after the flood. Man's gvt on earth will end when the Lord comes again to govern all nations on earth by His might and rule.

The promised seed Jesus Christ is come, and by His resurrection the promise of inheriting everlasting life is to any man, that repents for His mercy's sake. The promised land to the Jews will be during His rule on earth.

The law of Moses was made for the OT of the God of Israel with a national people by birth, law, and conversion. It's old and passed away.

The church of age of Jesus Christ is since His resurrection from the dead, now, and forever.

Rev 22:1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

The thousand year kingdom of the Lord on earth is still promised when He comes again. Resurrected Abraham will recieve his promised land with his Jews. And the gospel will still be preached to redeem them that sin.

This revised dispensationalism also rejected the belief that the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 was not for the church.
Jerem 31 was two separate promised prophecies: the first is of the Lord's rule on earth, with the Jews given the promised land to Abraham. The last is the NT of Jesus Christ for all men to repent for, Jews and Gentiles.


Advocates instead hold that the church is the “spiritual” seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16-29)

And that seed is Christ Jesus our Lord.

However, they still insist on a “literal” fulfillment of the OT promises to Israel, and they follow dispensational eschatology.

Once again, the OT promise was of the seed Christ, which is fulfilled, and of the land Abraham walked on, not yet fulfilled.

Progressive dispensationalists do not make as sharp of a distinction between Israel and the church.

There is no difference between the body of Jesus Christ and Israel of God on earth today. Birth lineage doesn't matter. All nations ruled by men today on earth are uncircumcised Gentile to God, including Israel after the flesh, because no nation on earth today is ruled by the Lord Himself in person.

In other words, the present church age is not a “parenthesis” resulting from Jewish unbelief (as other dispensationalists held). God always planned to save the Gentiles as part of redeemed humanity.

True. the Jews' unbelief was the means of Jesus Christ's death, that He should rise again and save unto Himself all them that repent.

However, progressive dispensationalists still see the church as something new,

Every creature born in Christ Jesus is all new. Being born again by the resurrection is new on earth, beginnning with His resurrection, which is also new on earth and in heaven.

and the promises to Israel in the OT are still available for Jewish Christians (including the land promise).

Aside from the quasi theolgoical philosophy, dispensationalism demands that all of God's promises and prophecies for this earth, must come to pass on this earth. Which is true.

His prophecied coming to earth again with power will come to pass. His prophecied rule over all the earth will come to pass. His prophecied land promised to Abraham and his natural seed will come to pass, as well as their national priesthood for all the earth. And His prophesied new heaven and earth dwelling with man in New Jerusalem will come to pass forever.

 

[Josheb]

In order to know any truth or error of dispensationalism, we need to know what it is. What is it to you?

Were the other six ops on problems inherent in Dispensationalism read?

 

[Ghada]

Were the other six ops on problems inherent in Dispensationalism read?

Tried to find specifics.

I'll focus on the one that looks like centerpiece objection: Literal fulfillment of prophecy in the land promised to Abraham, that he walked on earth, and will recieve with his natural offspring the Jews.

That seems to be the core tenant of dispensationalism, and is certainly true. I don't believe it takes all that other great studying and stuff, just to confirm God keeps all His promises and fulfills all His prophecies of this earth, on this earth.

Until the Lord's return, the prophecy has no need for a nation of Israel after the flesh on earth. He'll restore their nationalism on the land He promised to Abraham, when He comes, wars, smites, and rules all His inherited nations on earth.

Otherwise, it's also unnecessary to overspiritualize the body of Christ on earth, as though God has no nation and Israel of flesh and blood at this time.

 

[CrowCross]

There is a recently posted op in this board titled, "The Rapture/Resurrection of the Church is near." I asked the op's author what "near" meant. The question had to be asked a couple of time before an answer was forthcoming but when the answer did finally arrive the answer was, "When is it going to happen? Some say it could happen on a Jewish festival this October. Perhaps the The Feast of Tabernacles. Yup, this October. Then again next October may still be in the window." Although there is a little ambiguity in that answer

Exactly....we don't know.

As the signs have clearly indicated...it is soon.

It seems if someone doesn't put a precise date on it...you complain.

The rapture happens prior to the tribulation....It could happen at the moment it begins or 1/2 a year before the trib begins....It could happen just prior to the Ezekiel 38/39 battle.....which the nations as far as they have been revised to modern times are currently in coalition..or it could happen after.

The temple could be started tomorrow, but I think that will happen after the rapture. The Jews are ready to rebuild it RIGHT now. They even have the red heffers. They have people cutting the blocks....the furniture has even been assembled.

The mark of the beast is definitely after the rapture....and the system is maturing rapidly.

Is there problems Inherent to Dispensationalism....no.

LOOK UP!!!

 

[Josheb]

Were the other six ops on problems inherent in Dispensationalism read?

Tried to find specifics.

I'll focus on the one that looks like centerpiece objection: Literal fulfillment of prophecy in the land promised to Abraham, that he walked on earth, and will recieve with his natural offspring the Jews.

That seems to be the core tenant of dispensationalism, and is certainly true. I don't believe it takes all that other great studying and stuff, just to confirm God keeps all His promises and fulfills all His prophecies of this earth, on this earth.

Until the Lord's return, the prophecy has no need for a nation of Israel after the flesh on earth. He'll restore their nationalism on the land He promised to Abraham, when He comes, wars, smites, and rules all His inherited nations on earth.

Otherwise, it's also unnecessary to overspiritualize the body of Christ on earth, as though God has no nation and Israel of flesh and blood at this time.

Were the other ops on the problems inherent in Dispensationalism read?

 

[Josheb]

Exactly....we don't know.

As the signs have clearly indicated...it is soon.

What do you mean by "soon"?

Is there problems Inherent to Dispensationalism....no.

The evidence proves otherwise.

LOOK UP!!!

Why? If DPism is correct I will be raptured away whether or not I am looking up. Salvation is by grace, not works. There is no salvation-by-looking-up.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed....... but only if we're looking up.

That is not what scripture teaches.

 

[CrowCross]

What do you mean by "soon"?

The evidence proves otherwise.

Why? If DPism is correct I will be raptured away whether or not I am looking up. Salvation is by grace, not works. There is no salvation-by-looking-up.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed....... but only if we're looking up.

That is not what scripture teaches.

LOL...you didn't spend much time on that reply...did ya?

Looking up has nothing to do with salvation.

Luke 21:28 And of these things beginning to come to pass, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

 

[Josheb]

LOL...you didn't spend much time on that reply...did ya?

It does not take much time to observes nonsense when posted.

Looking up has nothing to do with salvation.

If only the saved are raptured and one must look up in order to be raptured then looking up does have something to do with salvation and you have, once again, evidenced one of the several problems inherent in Dispensationalism.

Luke 21:28 And of these things beginning to come to pass, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Do you not see the inconsistency, the inherent contradiction between saying the redeemed and saved are raptured and also claiming looking up has nothing to do with salvation?


It does not take much time to see that nonsense.

And my question was not answered.

As the signs have clearly indicated...it is soon.

What, exactly, do you mean by "soon"?

Remember: Every delay in answer the question proves what I posted in the other ops true and correct.

 

[CrowCross]

If only the saved are raptured and one must look up in order to be raptured then looking up does have something to do with salvation and you have, once again, evidenced one of the several problems inherent in Dispensationalism.

I'm not going to argue with your ignorance. No one, and I'll repeat it...NO ONE...said you have to look up to be raptured. So, stop with your false statements.