Sayings of Jesus on the atonement

[makesends]

Brother, would you say the atonement is linchpin as doctrine, a key point of belief that must be understood?

I have always felt like the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ were the most important, and spending Ressurection Week (or two) here having discussions with all of you in @atpollard's thread while I spent a copious amount of time crying I felt like I grew in the knowledge and understanding of God some more too.

Is this the most important thing for people truly understand?

What do you mean by, "must be understood" and "the most important thing for people [to] truly understand"?

First, are you only referring to doctrine proper, in "must be understood", and not to the heart?

Second, do we truly understand anything —that is, at least, with the intellect? Is it not possible for the witless among us to understand better than the intelligent, the simplicity of the Gospel and the mercy of God?


As for me, I think I in some way identify with you intellectually and emotionally, in what you refer to as growing in knowledge and understanding of God, in what breaks the heart with [what I inferred as] both joy and sadness, and also in hardship and pain and consideration of God's sacrifice and his goodness.

In fact, even for those whose "works will be burned, yet they themselves will be saved...yet so as by fire", I think 'Sanctification' is still occurring and shaping them for God's purposes for them in Heaven. We are all growing in grace—but it mostly doesn't look like what we expected.

 

[Carbon]

Brother, would you say the atonement is linchpin as doctrine, a key point of belief that must be understood?

I have always felt like the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ were the most important, and spending Ressurection Week (or two) here having discussions with all of you in @atpollard's thread while I spent a copious amount of time crying I felt like I grew in the knowledge and understanding of God some more too.

Is this the most important thing for people truly understand?

I do. I believe that the atonement, particularly the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, is essential to the Christian faith. It is an absolute essential part of the Christian foundation.

 

[Carbon]

I do. I believe that the atonement, particularly the Penal Substitutionary Atonement, is essential to the Christian faith. It is an absolute essential part of the Christian foundation.

And because of this, I believe it is very important to understand. One reason why there are those who disagree with and attack the PSA is that many do not understand.
There are many who are misled away from this essential belief. I believe I have experienced seeing this effect on some people. If some of these people had a good understanding of the doctrine, it may have been avoided.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Im off topic @makesends

 

[Carbon]

And because of this, I believe it is very important to understand. One reason why there are those who disagree with and attack the PSA is that many do not understand.
There are many who are misled away from this essential belief. I believe I have experienced seeing this effect on some people. If some of these people had a good understanding of the doctrine, it may have been avoided.

And in the case of others, they are just in denial, and others are heretics like N. T. Wright. Some of these people have no issue with attacking the gospel and destroying it.

 

[Carbon]

Brother, would you say the atonement is linchpin as doctrine, a key point of belief that must be understood?

Sister, you have some great and very thought-provoking questions. I appreciate them as they help me to learn, also.

Think about this, if the PSA were not necessary, could there be any other reason sufficiently important for God to behave in such a way towards His Son?
Imagine His Son being made in fashion as a man, and suffering on the cross. I would say, God would not subject His Son to such agonies if sin could have been remitted without satisfaction.

To think this all was appointed merely to confirm Christ's testimony as a teacher, is a shock to reason, isn't it? I mean, how could we make all that make sense? For that could have simply been accomplished by a martyr's death.

Even to think that it was meant to impress us with a conviction of God's love for humans is no better. To think that if the vicarious sacrifice was not necessary on God's part for the ransom of sinners and to put away their sin, and that if the death of God's Son was not necessary, it would be repugnant to the divine goodness and wisdom of God.

 

[Carbon]

There are many who are misled away from this essential belief. I believe I have experienced seeing this effect on some people. If some of these people had a good understanding of the doctrine, it might have been avoided.

@ReverendRV and I spent a good many hours debating a few who we believe were misled, and they did their best to try and destroy this essential Christian doctrine of PSA.

 

[Arial]

Sister, you have some great and very thought-provoking questions. I appreciate them as they help me to learn, also.

Think about this, if the PSA were not necessary, could there be any other reason sufficiently important for God to behave in such a way towards His Son?
Imagine His Son being made in fashion as a man, and suffering on the cross. I would say, God would not subject His Son to such agonies if sin could have been remitted without satisfaction.

To think this all was appointed merely to confirm Christ's testimony as a teacher, is a shock to reason, isn't it? I mean, how could we make all that make sense? For that could have simply been accomplished by a martyr's death.

Even to think that it was meant to impress us with a conviction of God's love for humans is no better. To think that if the vicarious sacrifice was not necessary on God's part for the ransom of sinners and to put away their sin, and that if the death of God's Son was not necessary, it would be repugnant to the divine goodness and wisdom of God.

Denial of a penal substitutionary atonment defies the very definition of redemption---as in the Covenant of Redemption between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before creation.

It is a covenant among themselves to redeem a people. Redeem from what? The effects of Adam's sin on all mankind and on creation itself.

What is it to redeem someone? Take them out of something they can't get out of on their own, by substituting oneself for them as satisfaction for what is owed. Whether it is the redeemers money to pay a debt that removes the debt from the one who owes it; or the redeemers life instead of the condemned, if the penalty for the infraction is death.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[makesends]

Denial of a penal substitutionary atonment defies the very definition of redemption---as in the Covenant of Redemption between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit before creation.

It is a covenant among themselves to redeem a people. Redeem from what? The effects of Adam's sin on all mankind and on creation itself.

What is it to redeem someone? Take them out of something they can't get out of on their own, by substituting oneself for them as satisfaction for what is owed. Whether it is the redeemers money to pay a debt that removes the debt from the one who owes it; or the redeemers life instead of the condemned, if the penalty for the infraction is death.

I've been involved in several discussions on the question, but have yet to understand the mentality that wants to deny Christ taking every bit of our deserved punishment. Is it just a way to wiggle out of Particular Atonement?

 

[Eleanor]

I've been involved in several discussions on the question, but have yet to understand the mentality that wants to deny Christ taking every bit of our deserved punishment. Is it just a way to wiggle out of Particular Atonement?

They probably see it as a license to sin without punishment.

 

[Carbon]

I've been involved in several discussions on the question, but have yet to understand the mentality that wants to deny Christ taking every bit of our deserved punishment. Is it just a way to wiggle out of Particular Atonement?

Actually, brother, it's a denial that Christ died in our place, took upon himself the wrath of the Father in our place, and his resurrection proves Christ's death satisfied divine justice.
This is a very serious attack on the church. The cross of Christ is the centerpiece of Christianity.

 

[Carbon]

Actually, brother, it's a denial that Christ died in our place, took upon himself the wrath of the Father in our place, and his resurrection proves Christ's death satisfied divine justice.
This is a very serious attack on the church. The cross of Christ is the centerpiece of Christianity.

They deny all this.

 

[Hazelelponi]

They deny all this.

How do we respond brother? (To the denials).

 

[Carbon]

How do we respond brother? (To the denials).

Well, first of all, those who come right out and deny the PSA, we should not just dismiss it; instead, it would probably be good to discuss it with them. It would be helpful to understand why they believe such, identify their concerns, and perhaps guide them or teach them in understanding the atonement from scripture. Consistently point to Christ and how his propitiatory death satisfied divine justice.

I personally believe it is very important for a Christian to understand what and why they believe in PSA. If they do not, a good study into this is important.
If a Christian falls from this, it's a slippery slope as everything else will fall apart.

 

[Carbon]

Well, first of all, those who come right out and deny the PSA, we should not just dismiss it; instead, it would probably be good to discuss it with them. It would be helpful to understand why they believe such, identify their concerns, and perhaps guide them or teach them in understanding the atonement from scripture. Consistently point to Christ and how his propitiatory death satisfied divine justice.

I personally believe it is very important for a Christian to understand what and why they believe in PSA. If they do not, a good study into this is important.
If a Christian falls from this, it's a slippery slope as everything else will fall apart.

@Reformedguy @Marty @CrowCross

What's your thoughts on PSA?

 

[Eleanor]

@Reformedguy @Marty @CrowCross

What's your thoughts on PSA?

We can start with the OT sacrifices, which were the pattern for Jesus' sacrifice, and which were not offered for all mankind, but only for God's people.

And then we can proceed to faith, which is necessary for the application of Christ's sacrifice in salvation, which faith again is found only in God's people.

Which does not address "penal."

 

[Carbon]

We can start with the OT sacrifices, which were the pattern for Jesus' sacrifice, and which were not offered for all mankind, but only for God's people.

And then we can proceed to faith, which is necessary for the application of Christ's sacrifice in salvation, which faith again is found only in God's people.

Which does not address "penal."

Your thoughts on PSA are?

 

[Marty]

Christ did not die with uncertainty whether he should have a flock, but with special objects of redemption before his mind, to whom he was already knit by a tie necessary for the redemptive work.

And these are also his purchased property, the result or fruit of his atonement. These were already Christ's sheep before he died, they were so in the divine purpose, and in Christ's undertaking though not actually his till the ransom was paid for them. He declares that he died for the sheep, which, as appears from the context, were the elect given to him. (As @John Bauer mentioned in a previous post.) But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. John 10:26.

I don't believe that people are elected by God, its more of God knows who will put their faith in Him so He called them His sheep.

He invest in them because He knows before hand that they will accept Him as their Lord and Saviour.

 

[Carbon]

I don't believe that people are elected by God, its more of God knows who will put their faith in Him so He called them His sheep.

He invest in them because He knows before hand that they will accept Him as their Lord and Saviour.

Thanks for sharing.