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Rome's tactics.

I again appeal to the actual Catholic individual. He or she might well agree with you are me and if were to cue up the Catholic website and show them their statements are different than what the RCC supposedly teaches we'd likely hear, "Well that's not what I believe, I'm definitely Catholic but I don't believe that."
Again, my question is only addressing the consequences of those who precisely follow R.C. doctrine. As you pointed out, R.C. doctrine can vary on many points, but I am addressing specifically the R.C. doctrine of salvation by faith + WORKS which is for all practical purposes a universal R.C. doctrine.
I suppose I have met RCs who ay faith and works save, but most I know will articulate a position similar to the classic Reformed position that an authentic faith begets faithfulness (works).
Agreed. Again, my question specified those individuals who follow R.C. doctrine and not those that do not in some point. More specifically, the R.C. doctrine of salvation by faith + WORKS. If a person does not believe in salvation by faith + WORKS then that person is not a subject of my query.

O.K., we may be off topic somewhat. Let me ask you this. Can a person who died believing in salvation by faith + WORKS truly be saved?
I don't think so. I gave my proof texts. Aside: I am not 100% sure of my opinion. I hope I'm wrong. In the end God chooses and I am of the opinion that a sign of His choosing is that the chosen one will not believe part of his salvation is dependent upon his works.

Aside2: Your prose is superior. I need some sort of handicap. ;)
 
It's also surprising how little scripture authority the RCC cites as a basis for their doctrine of the priesthood. Basically the main and perhaps the only support it has in in Mathew 16:18-19
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
They tend to do this, it's their practice. Add one human tradition to another, which has no real support in scripture and is actually contrary to scripture. It is also amazing, that the RCC teaches her people this interpretation in Matthew 16 to support the priests. And at the same time, denies them the right to read or listen to any other interpretation.
 
It's also surprising how little scripture authority the RCC cites as a basis for their doctrine of the priesthood. Basically the main and perhaps the only support it has is in Mathew 16:18-19
Gee, the RCC claims the Magisterium as the ultimate authority. If that is true then we should follow along.
 
Gee, the RCC claims the Magisterium as the ultimate authority. If that is true then we should follow along.
Well the RCC does put their priests between the Christian and the knowledge of God as revealed in the scriptures and they make the priest the sole interpreter of truth. The RCC also puts the priest between the confession of sins and the forgiveness of sins.
 
Again, my question is only addressing the consequences of those who precisely follow R.C. doctrine. As you pointed out, R.C. doctrine can vary on many points, but I am addressing specifically the R.C. doctrine of salvation by faith + WORKS which is for all practical purposes a universal R.C. doctrine.

Agreed. Again, my question specified those individuals who follow R.C. doctrine and not those that do not in some point. More specifically, the R.C. doctrine of salvation by faith + WORKS. If a person does not believe in salvation by faith + WORKS then that person is not a subject of my query.
I understand. My answer is the same: because we are not saved by doctrine or, necessarily, adherence to doctrine, a person who believes s/he is saved by faith plus works can still be saved. His doctrine does not save him. His adherence to the doctrine does not save him. Jesus saves him. Such a person could be meticulous with their works, believing they facilitate his salvation only to reach heaven and hear Jesus say, "Meh, I appreciate the good works, but they had nothing to do with obtaining your salvation."
Can a person who died believing in salvation by faith + WORKS truly be saved?
Yes. Such a person can be saved. Consider the passages of the epistolary where you and I learn salvation is by faith alone. At least some of them were written to an already saved audience who had misguided beliefs, believing works saved, or works contributed to salvation (such as in the case of justification). They needed correction but they were treated as saved people, not liars or apostates.

The problem with RCCism has more to do with the fact they teach a bad doctrine to the saved.
Aside2: Your prose is superior. I need some sort of handicap. ;)
Thanks
 
The devil is in the details. I've long witnesses two sets of doctrines in the RCC. There is the official set that rarely gets taught in its entirety at the level of the common practitioner and there is the set that is taught at the practical level that much of the elite rarely speaks of. Then there are the huge divides between the left and the traditional, and the traditional and the Traditional. Marxism has increased its influence over the last half century, so a lot of unrecognizable interpretation of RC doctrine and practice has occurred that's just complete nonsense no matter who is looking at it. Social Justice, for example, has its roots in RCCism but that tradition from which the Protestant ethos was developed is radically difference from the hijacking the Left has performed. Modern social justice as a theory espousing the idea that all people should have equal rights, opportunities, and treatment has nothing to do with James 1:27.
There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed.
Yes. The reason such a person can be saved is because doctrine does not save! There is, to be sure, a set of core beliefs that are required for salvation but there's not a single member of this forum who has all his/her doctrines correct. Can a person be saved without being regenerate? No. Can a person believe his/her regeneration occurred through baptism? Yes. Might he be wrong? Yes. Is s/he saved? If God saw fit to regenerate that person, then it was not dependent on that person's beliefs pertaining to regeneration (or baptism). There's a huge segment of Christianity who doesn't have a clue what the word "regeneration" means, much less a doctrine on the matter exists.
 
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Well, that's true and that would make my question difficult to answer. No K.I.S.S. rule here.
Agreed. The problem with theological study is you get more things wrong because you have accumulated many more facts, though the percentage of errors among one's known facts should diminish.
True enough.
As stated, I agree with this statement. Anyone God saves (regenerates) is saved. If God choose to regenerate Satan, then Satan would be saved. But, God has pointed out effects of regeneration that can be used to determine whether one is regenerated. I know of one effect that, if not present, proves one is not regenerated.
1) Faith in Christ (now I grant that the substance of saving faith is debated but I think 3 things must be included or one is not saved
a) If you never heard of Christ before death ... then one knows that person was not regenerated
b) If you don't believe Christ is God .... then one knows that person was not regenerated (I can list verses if asked)
now, getting back the the original question: "Is an R.C. saved if he follows R.C. doctrine.... I grant the R.C.s have no issue with (a) and (b)
..... but now entertain (c)
c) If you believe you are saved by your works as well as faith, which is what R.C. doctrine teaches then this is a sign that
you have not been regenerated. Now, as proof that one is not saved if they believes they must perform works
I offer:
Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one … this is the theme of Galatians… We will be able to infer from the rest of the letter the nature of the doctrinal perversion and this other "gospel". Galatians 5:2 Notice, it is I, Paul, who tells you that if you receive circumcision [as a supposed requirement of salvation], Christ will be of no benefit to you [for you will lack the faith in Christ that is necessary for salvation]. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. 5 For we [not relying on the Law but] through the [strength and power of the Holy] Spirit, by faith, are waiting [confidently] for the hope of righteousness [the completion of our salvation]. 6 For [if we are] in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but only faith activated and expressed and working through love. AMP
Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” (possibly means: relies on the Law alone)
and since the R.C. faith universally believes in salvation by faith and WORKS I come to the conclusion they are NOT SAVED. I hope I'm wrong, maybe I am.
I think they have changed on that to faith alone saves. . .
 
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As stated, I agree with this statement. Anyone God saves (regenerates) is saved. If God choose to regenerate Satan, then Satan would be saved. But, God has pointed out effects of regeneration that can be used to determine whether one is regenerated. I know of one effect that, if not present, proves one is not regenerated.
1) Faith in Christ (now I grant that the substance of saving faith is debated but I think 3 things must be included or one is not saved
a) If you never heard of Christ before death ... then one knows that person was not regenerated
b) If you don't believe Christ is God .... then one knows that person was not regenerated (I can list verses if asked)
now, getting back the the original question: "Is an R.C. saved if he follows R.C. doctrine.... I grant the R.C.s have no issue with (a) and (b)
..... but now entertain (c)
c) If you believe you are saved by your works as well as faith, which is what R.C. doctrine teaches then this is a sign that
you have not been regenerated. Now, as proof that one is not saved if they believes they must perform works
But:

What one articulates is not quite one's conception of the facts.

One's conception of the facts is not quite what one believes to be true.

What one believes to be true is not quite faith.
 
Again, my question is only addressing the consequences of those who precisely follow R.C. doctrine. As you pointed out, R.C. doctrine can vary on many points, but I am addressing specifically the R.C. doctrine of salvation by faith + WORKS which is for all practical purposes a universal R.C. doctrine.
Your original question, if I remember right, was not about consequences, but about whether or not one precisely following RC Doctrine could be saved. The question is not what they "follow" but in what their Faith is based, or, more to the point, from whom their faith comes. God's going to surprise us all, I think.

To me, this thread is conflating "man's constructions", with "Faith". I think MANY, maybe MOST, believers' conceptions --certainly their articulations-- come nowhere close to what they have faith in.
 
What one articulates is not quite one's conception of the facts.

One's conception of the facts is not quite what one believes to be true.
Maybe so, but it's seems to me to be the closest thing we have when it comes to correlating the two and thus the foundation of discussion. I grant that it's God that is the only determinating entity


Your original question, if I remember right, was not about consequences, but about whether or not one precisely following RC Doctrine could be saved. The question is not what they "follow" but in what their Faith is based, or, more to the point, from whom their faith comes. God's going to surprise us all, I think.

To me, this thread is conflating "man's constructions", with "Faith". I think MANY, maybe MOST, believers' conceptions --certainly their articulations-- come nowhere close to what they have faith in.
True.

To me, this thread is conflating "man's constructions", with "Faith". I think MANY, maybe MOST, believers' conceptions --certainly their articulations-- come nowhere close to what they have faith in.
That may be so. But a person's actions can be a excellent indicator as to whether they have saving faith or not. For example: "Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
... and Galatians 5:2-6, as I read it, says that people who believe (belief = faith) they must perform work(s) to be saved: "have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. Faith has content. Faith includes things to be believed. If you faith does not have the correct content then you are "toast" IMO. I'm saying, amongst other things, you're faith cannot be a saving faith if you think your salvation depends upon works (you obeying the law).
Now, maybe Galatians is just talking about circumcision which lets the women off the hook (giggle), but I think it applies to any work.
.
 
Maybe so, but it's seems to me to be the closest thing we have when it comes to correlating the two and thus the foundation of discussion. I grant that it's God that is the only determinating entity



True.


That may be so. But a person's actions can be a excellent indicator as to whether they have saving faith or not. For example: "Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
... and Galatians 5:2-6, as I read it, says that people who believe (belief = faith) they must perform work(s) to be saved: "have been severed from Christ, if you seek to be justified [that is, declared free of the guilt of sin and its penalty, and placed in right standing with God] through the Law; you have fallen from grace [for you have lost your grasp on God’s unmerited favor and blessing]. Faith has content. Faith includes things to be believed. If you faith does not have the correct content then you are "toast" IMO. I'm saying, amongst other things, you're faith cannot be a saving faith if you think your salvation depends upon works (you obeying the law).
Now, maybe Galatians is just talking about circumcision which lets the women off the hook (giggle), but I think it applies to any work.
.
I think I get your point. And I agree.
 
There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed.
You should really try Google more often before posting. An entire book or three would even be better.

Classic Christian social justice has its roots in the preaching of the apostles and the ECFs to direct service and missions work inside and outside the Church as a matter or ordinary, normal Christian practice. As the Church became more institutionalized (and the RCC became that institution) various doctrines, or formalized perspectives and policies (that's all a doctrine is) for the purpose of standardizing teaching arose. That's why we have doctrines like "Christology," "soteriology," "ecclesiology." It took about 150 years of vigorous debate for the matter of Christ's divinity to be settled and formalized. The first four centuries of the Church was spent contemplating and debating various perspectives, examining them with comparisons of whole scripture, for the Church to decide its core doctrines and put them into formalized statements.

One of the rarely mentioned doctrines was that of social justice. God is a just God, so take care not to inadvertently mock God with contradictory statements like "There is no such thing as social justice" and "[justice] is giving to each his due," because no one outside of Christ is due anything but destruction. In Christ each individual has value (even in the sinful state we are worth shedding Christ's blood for) and to be treated with dignity and respect as creations of God. This is how James could write,

James 3:8-10
....no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

That is not solely because fresh and foul water cannot come from the same spring. It is also because those made in God's image have worth. The Christian life has always been about preaching God's regard for humanity and then practicing that belief in tangible, visible ways. In its earliest days the gospel was well received by slaves and beggars and outcasts because of this belief. As Christianity became institutionalized it also gained wealth, and as it gained wealth it developed worldly problems of class division. We see the seeds of this, again, in James' epistle,

James 2:1-9
My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called? If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

By the time Augustine came around the need to formalize the otherwise common practice arose. Augustine defined justices as "Love serving God alone," describing how love was to rule in the Christians being, his/her thoughts, will, and actions and, therefore this standard was a critically necessary aspect of any Godly state (by which he meant political state), and a crucial feature of all states (institutions) whether they be geo-political nation-states and religious institutions. Augustine's "City of God" (perhaps one of the most misunderstood books in modernity) is very much about the ideal state (which would be the city of God's) and the fact that will never be realized on this side of the grave until Christ returns.

"Remove justice and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale? What are criminal gangs but petty kingdoms?”

In Augustine's viewpoint ALL people were to be obedient to God, not just Christians, but due to the depraving effects of sin it is incumbent upon Christians to set the example - the example of love, love that is practically demonstrating God's love by helping others in need - whether they deserve it or not because it's a function of grace, not merit (or what is earned or owed). His arguments were considered standard fare until the rise of Marxism, but before that happened Thomas Acquinas expounded on Augustinians' views by defining this love, or (social) justice as how Christians acted for the common good (as opposed to any individual's good). For Aquinas, geo-political nation states, earthly kings, nor any code of law could insure love or justice, nor could self-interest. Aquinas appealed to God's created order, to natural law, to show want and need of Christian service for all - both inside and outside of the Church. A monarch was just a responsible, accountable, and culpable to this standard as was the pauper and, since the agency of God's love in an individual is not dependent on material wealth all people must be just. There is no distinction between love and justice any more than God could be one or the other.

This all became very twisted as the RCC grew more institutionalized and rivalries developed. Throughout the first two millennia the RCC vied with monarchs and nation-states for authority, power, and influence. Internally the first big division occurred at The Great Schism when the Orthodox parted ways with Catholicism, Constantinople parted ways with Rome. A similar division occurred at the Protestant Reformation but one of the common set of beliefs all these divisions held fast to was that of social justice. With the rise of the Industrial Revolution, it became necessary for all the Church, regardless of sectarian affiliation to evaluate its service to society. By this time the philosophies of Rousseau, Montesquieu, Voltaire and Locke were prevalent and competed with Christian orthodoxy. The first orphanages and hospitals were being built in the US - all the earliest social/welfare institutions in the US were begun by Christians. In a relatively brief time, the ideas of Kierkegaard (who was simply trying to find a means by which faith could be knowingly applied with confidence), Nietzsche, Marx, Darwin, and others were challenging Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. As the nations of the world became more secular (Napolean had made it possible for a king to be made apart from the Church) the Church responded two ways: increased missions into the colonies of the major nations, and hiding. The RCC responded with a papal Encyclical called "Rerum Novarum" which defined the Church's views on wages, how business owners were to treat their employees (the Marxist term "worker" was taking hold in the common vernacular of western societies), personal wealth and property, and calling for a just distribution of wealth. After World War II and the rise of Communism these viewpoints became a core part of the Catholic belief system in South America (Islam and Chinese Communism had limited the Church's influence in Asia, and capitalism was till waging a cold war in Africa). The perversion of historical Social Justice became complete with the election of a Marxist as Pope. Pope Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio) was born and raised in Argentina; a Jesuit indoctrinated in Liberation Theology. The RCC had been going back and forth for decades between conservative and liberal factions. Marxism radically defines "social justice," and steels its capital from the Church while perverting the mission and agency of the Christian's God-birthed love to idolize (Marxist) humanity and discard God, faith, and religion as unnecessary (or even something to be abhorred).


Social justice is a real thing. It is not the same as legal justice. It is much larger and more encompassing because it is rooted in the overlapping nature of God who is both love and just.








Which is relevant to this op because the Marxist-influenced application of historical RCC soteriology is much, much different than anything any Catholic our age (I'm 66) grew up with. Salvation by faith plus works in Marxist Catholicism is salvation by faith plus Marxist works of class revolution (commonly known in the US as DEI and ESG for the non-religious).

Jesus was, after all, a socialist and the early Church was communist ;). It says so right in Acts 2-4 🤥.
 
Eleanor said:
There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed.
You should really try Google more often before posting. An entire book or three would even be better.

Classic Christian social justice has its roots in the preaching of the apostles and the ECFs to direct service and missions work inside and outside the Church as a matter or ordinary, normal Christian practice
Sometimes I can't tell if you or @Eleanor has the more literal, or as I heard one person describe it, "wooden", way of words. She rather obviously, I thought, was not talking about that particular social justice in the old common, real, sense, but in the politically-correct catch-phrase perversion that the term has come to mean. But maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong once before. I can still remember --traumatic, it was.... :LOL:

It's not like she is against true social justice, nor disagrees with or is ignorant of the need for it.
 
Eleanor said:
There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed.

Sometimes I can't tell if you or @Eleanor has the more literal, or as I heard one person describe it, "wooden", way of words. She rather obviously, I thought, was not talking about that particular social justice in the old common, real, sense, but in the politically-correct catch-phrase perversion that the term has come to mean. But maybe I'm wrong. I was wrong once before. I can still remember --traumatic, it was.... :LOL:
In any text-based medium it is necessary to write in a manner that precludes ambiguity because one of the most basic facts of text-based mediums is that if something can be misinterpreted then it certainly will be misinterpreted by someone. If the post was misread then I will gladly acknowledge that and reply accordingly once that's made clear.
It's not like she is against true social justice, nor disagrees with or is ignorant of the need for it.
Are you sure?

Taken as written, the meaning of the words, "There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed," is plain and were I to evaluate each part I'd find several problems with that sentence..... perhaps none of which were intended :unsure:.

  • There is such thing as social justice and it has historically been understood as a core aspect of the Christian life.
  • Justice come in many forms, most of which have nothing to do with anything legal.
  • Social justice is the exact opposite of what's earned. It's a function of grasp, not obligation, a function of what is owed God as an agent of His sovereign affection, a function of duty to Him, not the one in need.
  • The widow, the orphan, the one in need owe me nothing.
  • The html tags in Post 228 are screwed up.
  • Post 228 is off topic (which is why I attempted to bring the matter of social justice back to the op). Salvific "works" in the RCC mindset have specific meaning.

And that says nothing about the often-disagreeable exchanges she and I have.
 
In any text-based medium it is necessary to write in a manner that precludes ambiguity because one of the most basic facts of text-based mediums is that if something can be misinterpreted then it certainly will be misinterpreted by someone. If the post was misread then I will gladly acknowledge that and reply accordingly once that's made clear.
To answer this post risks continuing further off-topic, I think. But all of us, no matter how concise or explanatory or vague or definite we express what we mean, we are misunderstood anyway.
Are you sure?
Yes
Taken as written, the meaning of the words, "There is no such thing as "social" justice, there is only justice--giving to each his due, what he has earned, is owed," is plain and were I to evaluate each part I'd find several problems with that sentence..... perhaps none of which were intended :unsure:.
@Eleanor speaks in context of other things she has written, just as how she interprets what you and others write, and even how she uses the Bible. I know, from our conversations and posts, she understands mercy and grace very well, and how they relate to what social justice is. She is introducing a point, that nobody deserves 'social justice', even if that means from one another, interpersonal fairness. We owe it to each other, but none deserve it. --At least, that is how I take her to be saying what she said, as against the modern misuse of the term.

She is more than aware of the Golden Rule.
  • There is such thing as social justice and it has historically been understood as a core aspect of the Christian life.
  • Justice come in many forms, most of which have nothing to do with anything legal.
  • Social justice is the exact opposite of what's earned. It's a function of grasp, not obligation, a function of what is owed God as an agent of His sovereign affection, a function of duty to Him, not the one in need.
  • The widow, the orphan, the one in need owe me nothing.
  • The html tags in Post 228 are screwed up.
  • Post 228 is off topic (which is why I attempted to bring the matter of social justice back to the op). Salvific "works" in the RCC mindset have specific meaning.
Ok.
And that says nothing about the often-disagreeable exchanges she and I have.
Irrelevant and petty.

I think the world of both of you. Both have been an inspiration to me to try to be precise and accurate in what I write, and in how I think. She and you both are on the same side --in fact, I would say she more resembles you than she does me, in the matter of God's predetermination and related principles, such as the use of WCF 3.1. and in the concept of 'freedom of the will' of moral agents. I am utterly deterministic, though not one of those people would take me to be when I say that --I don't see it at all interfering with real choice, nor "forcing" anything. But @Eleanor is much quicker than I to use the term 'freewill' qualified with the fact that we always choose according to our inclinations. While you don't use the words she does, you agree with the principle, and so far as I have seen, while she stays more or less silent on the matter, she does not insist like I do, that God is absolutely causal in every smallest detail. (Lol, I wish I could think of the right word, like you do, for what I end out typing out in a phrase or sentence.)

I'm not going to go back and rewrite any of that right now, even though I know there are better ways to put what I want to say, to you and her. I need to get to work.

I love you both. Don't take her as someone to defeat. She and you are on the same side.
 
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