Romans 5:12

[Carbon]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5.

Notice Paul says death passed to "all people," not all life. Does it make a difference? Especially since it says, "death by sin."

 

[Eleanor]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5.

Notice Paul says death passed to "all people," not all life. Does it make a difference? Especially since it says, "death by sin."

Would not the tearing of the fabric of universe by Adam also include all life therein?

 

[atpollard]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5.

Notice Paul says death passed to "all people," not all life. Does it make a difference? Especially since it says, "death by sin."

I think so.

God warned Adam "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17 [ESV]. So either God lied to Adam in Genesis 2, or God was talking about something more important than mere physical death. [My money is on the latter.]

So, sure animals and people die and return to dust ... that was part of the curse ["... till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." - Genesis 3:19 ESV], but people lost something more important: "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 [ESV]

We broke ... deep down inside ... at a level and in a way that we (mankind) can NEVER repair. That is the "death" that passed to us. We lost a "life" that the animals never had. That is what Jesus came to "fix" ... to restore that which was lost.

 

[Arial]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5.

Notice Paul says death passed to "all people," not all life. Does it make a difference? Especially since it says, "death by sin."

I believe that death passing to all life, because obviously it does, is expressed in Romans 8: 19-22 For creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

I originally attached this to @Eleanor's post #2 and it should have been attached to @Carbon post #1/

If only people died we would long ago have been "devoured" by animal and plant life. So even though only humans are capable of sinning, all of creation paid the price of death.

 

[Josheb]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Romans 5.

Notice Paul says death passed to "all people," not all life. Does it make a difference? Especially since it says, "death by sin."

Not only do the "all people," the "death by sin," and the "upon all men," make a difference, but the juxtaposition of the death passing to all men with the "all have sinned," precludes any excepts. All humans have sinned (Rom. 3:23). All humans have sinned and fallen short of God's glory because sin entered the world and death by sin entered the world. The death by sin that entered the world spread to all men.

Death by sin did not exist in the world prior to Genesis 3:6-7. Death by sin did not exist in Adam or Eve prior to Genesis 3:6-7. Their act of disobedience changed the condition of the world in its entirety, and it did so in a manner that spread to all humans (which is a really big statement since there were only two humans living prior to Genesis 3:6-7)..... and spread to all humans in a way that all have sinned, fallen short of God's glory and are in need of salvation. Where is the mention of volition?












(crickets chirping)
.

 

[Eleanor]

Not only do the "all people," the "death by sin," and the "upon all men," make a difference, but the juxtaposition of the death passing to all men with the "all have sinned," precludes any excepts. All humans have sinned (Rom. 3:23). All humans have sinned and fallen short of God's glory because sin entered the world and death by sin entered the world. The death by sin that entered the world spread to all men.

Death by sin did not exist in the world prior to Genesis 3:6-7. Beth by sin did not exist in Adam or Eve prior to Genesis 3:6-7. Their act of disobedience changed the condition of the world in its entirety, and it did so in a manner that spread to all humans (which is a really big statement since there were only two humans living prior to Genesis 3:6-7)..... and spread to all humans in a way that all have sinned,

And since "all have sinned" includes those during the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, no personal sin was charged to them, but they died anyway, which death was the result of sin (Ro 6:20),
the sin of which they were held guilty was the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14),
which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) to men.

 

[Josheb]

And since "all have sinned" includes those during the time between Adam and Moses when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, no personal sin was charged to them, but they died anyway, which death was the result of sin (Ro 6:20),

That is an incorrect reading of Romans 5:13. Not only would that interpretation make verse 13 contradict verse 20 (and vice versa), it contradicts the entire testimony of Genesis 4 all the way through Exodus 17 where sin is repeatedly spoken of before the Law was given. God was clearly making note of sin when He said,

Genesis 4:7-8
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

.....and then He exiled Cain as a consequence of his transgressions. Genesis 4:8 is a record of one man's sin, an account of God accounting that man's sin against him. Soo too are the following....

Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave."

Genesis 20:6-9
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore, I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, "What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done."

Exodus 10:16-17
Then Pharaoh hurriedly called for Moses and Aaron, and he said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. "Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and make supplication to the LORD your God, that He would only remove this death from me."


And every occasion prior to Exodus 20 where one person talks to another about their having sinned against a person, or having been sinned against that is a record of God keeping an account of sin and the pre-Law people's awareness of God doing so,

the sin of which they were held guilty was the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:12-14),

That is partly true but verse 14 makes it clear "death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam." Furthermore, sin is not measured only by guilt. Sin corrupts. Therefore, on top of any guilt that sin brings there is the extra-legal matter of corruption that always accompanies sin. This is why 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of our future hope of becoming incorruptible, not innocent.

which was the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righteousness (Ro 5:18-19) to men.

Again, the angel is in the details. All sin occurs in the pattern of Adam's simply because all sin is disobedience of one kind or another. All sin is self-centered. All sin brings corruption (but not necessarily death). One (important) aspect to the pattern of Adam's sin is his lack of remorse and repentance. To stand before God and explain ourselves, justifying our transgression, unrighteousness, lack of faith, etc. and blaming others is an excellent way to get tossed into the fiery furnace . That was what Adam did. It was only by the grace of God Adam wasn't incinerated on the spot.

 

[Eleanor]

That is an incorrect reading of Romans 5:13. Not only would that interpretation make verse 13 contradict verse 20 (and vice versa),

No contradiction between Ro 5:13 and Ro 5:20 in the light of my post.
That is the seeming contradiction my post resolves.

it contradicts the entire testimony of Genesis 4 all the way through Exodus 17 where sin is repeatedly spoken of before the Law was given. God was clearly making note of sin when He said,

The contradiction you must resolve is why all died between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:14)
when there was no law to sin against and, therefore, personal sin was not taken into account (Ro 5:13).

What "sin was the in the world" (Ro 5:13) to cause the deaths of "those who did not sin by breaking a command" (Ro 5:14)
when sin was not taken into account, before the Law was given?

The sin that was in the world was the imputed sin of Adam, which imputation is "the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the one to come," the pattern for the imputation of the righteousness of Christ, in the following verses (Ro 5:18-19).

You're an exceedingly smart guy. . .slow down and think it over. . .I'm most confident you will see it, particularly in light of your contradiction
between Ro 5:13 - sin was in the world
and Ro 5:14 - no personal sin was taken into account, charged against them, yet they died anyway.

Genesis 4:7-8
"If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it." Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

.....and then He exiled Cain as a consequence of his transgressions. Genesis 4:8 is a record of one man's sin, an account of God accounting that man's sin against him. Soo too are the following....

Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, "The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave."

Genesis 20:6-9
Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that in the integrity of your heart you have done this, and I also kept you from sinning against Me; therefore, I did not let you touch her. Now therefore, restore the man's wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours." So Abimelech arose early in the morning and called all his servants and told all these things in their hearing; and the men were greatly frightened. Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, "What have you done to us? And how have I sinned against you, that you have brought on me and on my kingdom a great sin? You have done to me things that ought not to be done."

Exodus 10:16-17
Then Pharaoh hurriedly called for Moses and Aaron, and he said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. "Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and make supplication to the LORD your God, that He would only remove this death from me."

And every occasion prior to Exodus 20 where one person talks to another about their having sinned against a person, or having been sinned against that is a record of God keeping an account of sin and the pre-Law people's awareness of God doing so,

That is partly true but verse 14 makes it clear "death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam."

Precisely. . .with which my post is in perfect agreement, as well as in perfect agreement with

Furthermore, sin is not measured only by guilt. Sin corrupts. Therefore, on top of any guilt that sin brings there is the extra-legal matter of corruption that always accompanies sin. This is why 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of our future hope of becoming incorruptible, not innocent.

Again, the angel is in the details. All sin occurs in the pattern of Adam's simply because all sin is disobedience of one kind or another. All sin is self-centered. All sin brings corruption (but not necessarily death). One (important) aspect to the pattern of Adam's sin is his lack of remorse and repentance. To stand before God and explain ourselves, justifying our transgression, unrighteousness, lack of faith, etc. and blaming others is an excellent way to get tossed into the fiery furnace . That was what Adam did. It was only by the grace of God Adam wasn't incinerated on the spot.

 

[Josheb]

Ro 5:14 - no personal sin was taken into account, charged against them, yet they died anyway.

The word "all" means all.

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. That means all, including those who lived between Adam and Moses fell short of God's glory. That is an accounting of their sin. Their need of a savior is an accounting of their sin apart from the Law. Every personal sin was taken into account and will be held against them.

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.

That is not "every careless word that people born after Exodus 20 speak."

Genesis 6:5
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Those people had their sins held into account so forcefully and were charged so violently that the whole lot of them were killed and all record of their existence was wiped off the face of the earth.

Genesis 18:26-32
So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account." .............And He said, "I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there." .......................And He said, "I will not do it on account of the forty." ...................And He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." ................And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the twenty." .....................And He said, "I will not destroy it on account of the ten."

Not even ten could be found. God was counting and He did hold into account those sins and charged them against their practitioners. One of the ones that was permitted to escape was turned into a pillar of salt because..... they sinned!

and Ro 5:14 - no personal sin was taken into account, charged against them...,

Scripture proves otherwise.

 

[Eleanor]

The word "all" means all.

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. That means all,

Precisely. . .even those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam (Ro 5:14).

including those who lived between Adam and Moses fell short of God's glory. That is an accounting of their sin.

Precisely. . .

So what sin would that be when no personal sin was counted against them between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:13)?

You are too intelligent to deny the plain language of Ro 5:13-14: "sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."

Does Ro 5:14 help?. . .Adam was a pattern of the one to come (Christ). How is sinful Adam a pattern of the righteous Christ?
Does Ro 5:15 help?. . .many died by the trespass of one man.
Does Ro 5:17 help?. . .by the trespass of one man, death reigned through that one man.
Does Ro 5:18 help?. . .the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men.
Does Ro 5:19 help?. . .through the disobedience of one, the many were made sinners.

You're disappointing me. . .

 

[donadams]

I think so.

God warned Adam "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." - Genesis 2:16-17 [ESV]. So either God lied to Adam in Genesis 2, or God was talking about something more important than mere physical death. [My money is on the latter.]

So, sure animals and people die and return to dust ... that was part of the curse ["... till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." - Genesis 3:19 ESV], but people lost something more important: "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28 [ESV]

We broke ... deep down inside ... at a level and in a way that we (mankind) can NEVER repair. That is the "death" that passed to us. We lost a "life" that the animals never had. That is what Jesus came to "fix" ... to restore that which was lost.

how does God repair it?

thks

 

[atpollard]

how does God repair it?

thks

I am a 5-point monergist, so my answer is that God rolls up his [metaphorical] sleeves and gets to work changing things.

Best "BIBLICAL" explanation of "how" I know is this ...

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God's anger, just like everyone else. ​

​

But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God's grace that you have been saved!) For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus. ​

​

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. For we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.​

- Ephesians 2:1-10 [NLT]​

Best "EMPIRICAL" example of "how" I have is this ...

Once upon a time, I had grown tired of the kill or be killed 'nihilist' life that I had chosen to embrace when the farce called church failed the test of life and "Thomas Hobbes" proved more accurate than "Sir Francis Bacon" as a predictor of reality. So as a person that had embraced violence sufficient to set enemies on fire before they could shoot you saw the handwriting on the wall that I was approaching the age when everyone I knew died ... O.D., death by cop, wrong place at the wrong time, (cause was irrelevant, the end result was the same) ... I had chosen one final act of defiance against the universe. I would choose the time and place and the world would remember my name ... along side Kaczynski and McVeigh. As I was NOT LOOKING for GOD, He came looking for me (road to Damascus style) and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Simply put, Jesus announced that effective immediately, I belonged to Him. Period. End of discussion.​

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I said "Yes Sir." (the only reasonable response when God speaks).​

​

So, that's my best answer to "How does God repair it?"

• One soul at a time,
• meeting you where you are,
• in a deeply unique and personal manner,
• providing JUST WHAT YOU NEED
• ... (and completely effective).

.​

 

[donadams]

I understand but im not speaking about a personal method but how the savior came in the first place

thks