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Redemption: The Big Picture

telling people to get educated is not on topic and fallen angels did not have offspring with human females.
With all due respect....that's what Gen six and the bible says.

. @Arial and I are still waiting for you to demonstrate with Scripture under the microscope of exegesis that Satan rules the world through by proxy. And I am still waiting you to provide the verse stating Satan wanted to rule the earth.
Does Satan run any countries as a president, king, emperor etc.? That answer is no. So, I have no reason to accept your belief.

Isaiah 14:12-15 ....12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." 15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit.

The verse from Isaiah describes Satans desire to ascend and elevate himself above God....which speaks of a desire for rulership.

You act as if Satan is a non-player and can do nothing.

When one looks at the world it becomes rather obvious that Satan and his followers have planed to take control of the world and exercise their power and authority over humanity. Rev 13 clearly points to that...and when one looks at current events and technology that goal is well on the way of being reached.

1st John 1:19 tells us.....19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.......That sounds like ruling or a desire to rule.
 
Jesus described how in heaven the angels do not marry
Yes, that's heaven...that's the unfallen angels. The fallen angels married on earth and produced offspring just like Gen 6 tells us as well as Enoch 6.

Jude 1:6 speaks of the consequences for the fallen angels who left their first estate, married the women and had offspring as told in Gen 6.

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

2nd Peter 2:4 brings more to the table....For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

1st Peter 3:19 provides even more details....in whom He also went and preached to the spirits in prison / who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In the ark a few people, only eight souls, were saved through water.

Now, I also know you're gonna balk about the Book of Enoch...but do you know Jude quoted directly from it?
Enoch 11:9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones....Jude 1:14 Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.....I wouldn't simply pooh pooh the book of Enoch.

The bible contains much support for the book of Enoch. I can provide you with 16 other instances of where the bible and the book of Enoch say the same thing or speak of the same topic. Problem is I'd have to type in in and I really don't feel like doing that.
But, as an example John 14:2 speaks of mansions and so does Enoch 39:4.

EDIT:...there's more than 16. You can go here and scroll down to Appendex A

So, when You say...
Got scripture for that?
I say yes.

No, you have misidentified the sons of God in Gen. 6. Genesis 4 states men began to follow God and these men began to marry and have sex with humans who were not following God, the daughters of men. Interfaith marriage was prohibited by God. He eventually codified it in the Law. This was the reasons the Samaritans were reviled (they'd intermarried with those of other religions). Intermarriage adulterates the faith because spouses have torn allegiances. That is what the opening of Gen 6 is about, NOT fallen angels copulating with humans.
Thats pure speculation.

How would men having offspring with women....produce nephelim?
 
With all due respect....that's what Gen six and the bible says.
No, it's not. It does not say fallen angels had sex with human women.
Does Satan run any countries as a president, king, emperor etc.? That answer is no. So, I have no reason to accept your belief.
If you believe Satan is NOT running any countries as president, etc. then you share my belief.
Isaiah 14:12-15 ....12 How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! 13 You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." 15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit.

The verse from Isaiah describes Satans desire to ascend and elevate himself above God....which speaks of a desire for rulership.
The passgae is worded in the past-tense, not the present or future-tense. It states he has been cast down and that he once laid low the nations, not that he currently lays low the nations or will in the future lay nations low. He said in the past he would ascend to the heavens, not he says in the present or says he will in the future will ascend. After he said those things, he was brought down.

The verse describes Satan's past hubris, his past claims of an intent to ascend. It says nothing of anything future after Isaiah. Re-read the verse, one word at a time, paying attention to the details of what specifically is stated, not what some screwed up teacher who mucks up the passage says it says. Satan has been brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depth of the pit.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The angels who did not keep their proper abode have been held in eternal bonds under darkness. They are not free to roam the earth or the heavens. There's no ascending for any of them. They are imprisoned for the day of judgment. When scripture described Satan roaming the earth looking for whom he might devour that is an idiomatic way of saying he is unclean. Can Satan devour the saved? No! Who then is Peter implicitly saying he devours? The only ones he can devour are the unsaved. In other words, he eats dead people. He eats those already dead in sin.

Leviticus 11:13-19
13
‘These, moreover, you shall detest among the birds; they are abhorrent, not to be eaten: the eagle and the vulture and the buzzard, 14and the kite and the falcon in its kind, 15every raven in its kind, 16and the ostrich and the owl and the sea gull and the hawk in its kind, 17and the little owl and the cormorant and the great owl, 18and the white owl and the pelican and the carrion vulture, 19and the stork, the heron in its kinds, and the hoopoe, and the bat.

Leviticus 17:15
And every person who eats what died naturally or what was torn by beasts, whether he is a native of your own country or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening. Then he shall be clean.

Deuteronomy 14:11-19
11
You may eat any clean bird. 12“But these are the ones which you shall not eat: the eagle and the vulture and the buzzard, 13and the red kite, the falcon, and the kite in their kinds, 14and every raven in its kind, 15and the ostrich, the owl, the sea gull, and the hawk in their kinds, 16the little owl, the great owl, the white owl, 17the pelican, the carrion vulture, the cormorant, 18the stork, and the heron in their kinds, and the hoopoe and the bat. 19“And all the teeming life with wings are unclean to you; they shall not be eaten.

Many of these birds are predatory but they all eat carrion.

1 Peter 5:8
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.

That is Satan's assignment. His Creator has assigned him that task. Satan is not happy about that. Instead of ascending to God's throne in usurpation, he's stuck here on earth eating sinners.
You act as if Satan is a non-player and can do nothing.
Satan can do nothing but what his Creator tells him he can do.

  • Is Satan a sinner?
  • Are the wages of sin death?
  • Does sin cause one's thinking to be futile?
  • Does sin darken one's heart?
  • Does sin enslave?
  • Has Satan been thrown down?
  • Is Satan a liar?
  • Has he been held in eternal bonds of darkness awaiting judgment?
  • Does Satan flee when the saints resist him?
  • Do those wearing God's armor extinguish all his flaming arrows?

Exactly what kind of enemy is it who flees when resisted and whose every machination is extinguished?

Does God, in fact, work all things for good in the lives of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose? YES! Therefore, If God does permit Satan to become involved in your life or mind we can rely upon God's promise. If God has permitted Satan's involvement in out lives we know it is for good according to God's purpose. What it is NOT is something that will serve Satan's purpose or something God will permit to work for evil.

I am not acting. I am standing firm on the facts of scripture and the promises of the ALMIGHTY GOD!!! You do understand what the word "almighty" means, yes? It absolutely, undeniably, inescapably means Satan is NOT mightier than God. You act like Satan has power he does not have.
When one looks at the world it becomes rather obvious that Satan and his followers have planed to take control of the world and exercise their power and authority over humanity. Rev 13 clearly points to that...and when one looks at current events and technology that goal is well on the way of being reached.
It's not obvious to me. I do not look at the world through eyes of flesh alone. I look at the world through scripture and measure everything that occurs here accordingly. You, because of your association with Dispensational Premillennialism look forward to the world going to hell in a handbasket any day now. You look forward to the Church becoming increasingly impotent and in need of rescue. You think the dominion mandate will be fulfilled only after the gates of hell prevail over the Church and Jesus' earthly reign fails in rebellion.
1st John 1:19 tells us.....19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.......That sounds like ruling or a desire to rule.
I think you mean 1 John 5:19, not 1:19. Yes, John did write something like that, but he did not write that.

Even if he had written those words they could only be read in the context of what Jesus said. Jesus stated, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Do you mean to pit John's words against Jesus'? If Jesus literally has ALL authority in heaven and earth, then Satan has none. You think that means Satan rules the world but that is not what the 1 John 1:19 verse actually states. Take a look at the Greek of 1 John 5:19. Now look at the English translations. Do you notice how the translations insert the words "control" or "power" when the Greek does NOT contain either word? Why did you not investigate and verify the claim before posting it? Could it be confirmation bias? :unsure: John also reported Jesus stating, "The prince of this world NOW stands condemned." Do you mean to pit John's words against John's words and make him contradict himself? If not, then I exhort you to study ALL of God's word, and study it more thoroughly because you've got a sin-enslaved creature possessing power he does not have.

The New Testament repeatedly states and affirms Jesus as the ruler of ALL things. The government is upon his shoulders, not Satan's. Jesus is the creator of all things, all the thrones or powers or rulers or authorities were created through and for him. Satan is a created creature, not the Creator. Satan serves the Creator. The Creator does not serve the creature, especially not one is dead in sin and who lies all the time. Jesus possesses the name far above all names and he has been exalted far above all other rule, power, authority, and dominion. Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father (see also Luke 22:69; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 12:2; and 1 Peter 3:2). Satan is held in eternal bonds of darkness. He has to ask permission before he can tempt a saint.

Jesus is God! Logic ought to tell you Satan is not literally the ruler of the world. If anyone ruled anything in creation apart from the sovereignty of almighty God that God would not be God. Scripture and logic are your friend :).

Therefore, if you think Satan has power as a sin-enslaved dead minion of his Creator and that power can and does actually cause Jesus any problem whatsoever, then you've also got a bad Christology.

John 16:5-11
5
But now I am going to Him who sent me; and none of you asks me, ‘Where are you going?’ 6But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9regarding sin, because they do not believe in me; 10and regarding righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you no longer are going to see me; 11and regarding judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

Do you understand the paradox of a "ruler" being judged? Who could ever possibly judge a ruler but a more powerful ruler?

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Is John lying? Was Jesus' appearance a failure, or were the works of the devil destroyed?
 
Yes, that's heaven...that's the unfallen angels.
Think that through. Angels in heaven do not marry but fallen angels, angels who been stripped of their place, their power, their glory, they can have sex with humans. You are pinning that interpretation on nothing. Scripture states angels don't marry and it never states they can have sex at all, much less with creatures of a completely different species. Humans cannot mate with apes. They cannot mate with horses or alligators or porpoises and none of those species can mate with the others, either. But you believe angels can mate with humans, that they, somehow can violate the way the world was made.

Genesis 1:2--25
20
Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” 23There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day. 24Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.

Angels are not human kind and humans are not angelic kind, not even fallen angelic kind. Your interpretation of Genesis 6:1 contradicts Genesis 1 and you, apparently think the contradiction can be defended.
The fallen angels married on earth and produced offspring just like Gen 6 tells us as well as Enoch 6.
Repeating the claim does not make it true and Enoch 6 is not scripture.
Jude 1:6 speaks of the consequences for the fallen angels who left their first estate, married the women and had offspring as told in Gen 6.
No, it does not. Jude 1 states those angels have been held in bonds of eternal darkness, not that they had sex with humans.
Thats pure speculation.
No, it is the result of sound exegesis. I have demonstrated the phrase "sons of God" applies to both humans and angels and not fallen angels. You are the one speculating the phrase can and does apply to the fallen angels. There is no verse to support that speculation.
How would men having offspring with women....produce nephelim?
I think you should take a look at the Hebrew and then compare it to the English translations, so you better understand what is specifically state and what exactly is stated and what is added to the verse through translation. The Nephilim were men. The Nephilim were not angelic/human halfbreeds.

Genesis 6:4
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of mankind, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

Not a single verse you've cited actually states what you say it says. You bought into some shmucks false teaching and if you examine scripture for what it actually states you will see how and why that teaching is false and ungodly..... literally ungodly.


Who are the Nephilim? Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4


There's tribe in Africa known as the Dinka in which men average 6' 7" in height. The average height of a male in the world currently is 5' 7.5". The average US male is 5' 9". The average height of a man in the 10th century BC is estimated to be 5' 3". That means the modern Dinka is nearly a foot-and-half taller than the average Noah-era male. It was not necessary for Olivier Rioux' or Manute Bol's mothers to have sex with angels to produce tall offspring.
 
I'm influenced by the first command God uttered, the "great commission," and the dominionists and postmils. Not like the Seven Mountainists or the Reconstructionists, though. Just a simple understanding God, from the beginning, wanted the earth subdued and ruled and that assignment was given to humans, not any other created creature. This begs the question, "Why give such a command if You are just going to destroy the whole thing when we do?" That doesn't make any sense. Whether we're talking about the physical planet, the worldly system of operation, or the matter of spiritual vitality versus desolation the directive from God is all always the same: Be overcomers.

I do not have to conquer the entire planet. Just the small portion He brings my way when I step out of bed each day. If He, in His infinite wisdom and grace happens to have me visit the White House or the Kremlin then I will do my best to the best of His inspiration and enabling. That has yet to happen. Right now I'm on my way to conquer part of Home Depot and the traffic in between home and there ;).

You know, because traffic.... 😡🤬👹🤯


😁




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That seems to assume that his command was for all the ages, from the beginning and for eternity. I don't see any reason to assume that.
 
@Josheb
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and afterward as well—when the sons of God had relations with the daughters of men. And they bore them children who became the mighty men of old, men of renown.

Duet 3:11 (For only Og king of Bashan had remained of the remnant of the Rephaim. His bed of iron, nine cubits long and four cubits wide, is still in Rabbah of the Ammonites.)

Yes, there were Giants....
 
I'm thinking you need to educate yourself...Gen 6 is about the fallen angels...called watchers...who had offspring with the daughters of men and produced the Nephilim. part angels and part human.
Just a note: Declaring the meaning of a scripture based on one's opinion of its meaning is not exegesis. Especially in passages like Gen 6, which has had several interpretations over the centuries. one of them (the one you propose), being Jewish tradition, possibly a demythologizing of legends and myths that existed in the surrounding cultures (Babylon, Assyria, and Caanan). This is what Enoch did and Enoch, not a part of our Bible canon for good reason (that being that it is Enoch's word and not God's). And Enoch is your source uses to interpret God's word.

I am not going to present the other views with their strengths and weakness here because it is a long way off the OP topic. So far off that it should never have been brought up.
As I expressed. Satan has tried to take that dominion away from us via proxy.
Yes, you did express that. I don't know why you are doing so again. It would be much more conversational to "prove" that rather than just to say it. How about we do that?

If you turn your attention back to the OP, you will notice that I illustrate my position by first assuming the Bible, as a book that is the word of God (a book, not just a series of stories unrelated to each other, each containing their own unique message and doctrine and theology)and in compliance with that, giving through scriptures the beginning, the middle, and the end of that story. That was done so that we can see the continuity and learn where God was heading with all the events that followed. This lets us see what the big picture is and put everything, all our interrelations of scriptures consistent with God's stated goal. And it isn't to give man back his dominion over the earth. In those passages from Is and Rev I gave showing the end result, there is nothing said about man being given or having dominion over the earth. Nothing. It is to destroy evil and the evil one, unite heaven and earth and populate that earth with a people Christ rescues from the kingdom of darkness, who are not mortal but immortal, who are not able to be corrupted, but are incorruptible. And dwell among us.
 
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