Reading/Hearing Scripture is only a start

[praise_yeshua]

As fallen creatures, we have a fallen memory ability which I wouldn't necessarily regard as sin.
Hence the admonition...

Hebrews 2:1 NASB
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

They didn't hear what they desired to hear. If they had, they would remember.

 

[prism]

I have none-that's why I have joined this Forum @prism
Johann.

I have heard this used

John 3:3 NASB95
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Meaning one cannot begin to perceive or understand the things of God unless they are first born again. Faith would be impossible under those circumstances, coupled with Rom 3:10-20.

 

[prism]

They didn't hear what they desired to hear. If they had, they would remember.

Do you have total recall of the Scriptures?

 

[Marilyn C]

It's a deal if you can produce Scripture showing faith precedes regeneration.

`By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.` (Heb. 11: 4)

 

[Johan]

I have heard this used

John 3:3 NASB95
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Meaning one cannot begin to perceive or understand the things of God unless they are first born again. Faith would be impossible under those circumstances, coupled with Rom 3:10-20.

BORN AGAIN (from 1 Peter 1)

This is the same root (anagennaō, cf. 1 Pet. 1:23) is used in Jesus' discussion with Nicodemus in John 3:3,7,8 (gennaō). It is an aorist active participle, which speaks of a decisive act. The NT also uses other metaphors to describe our salvation:

1. "quickened" (cf. Col. 2:13; Eph. 2:4-5)

2. "new creation" (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15)

3. "partaker of Divine Nature," (cf. 2 Pet. 1:4)

4. Paul is fond of the familial metaphor "adoption" (cf. Rom. 8:23; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5), while John and Peter are fond of the familial metaphor "new birth"

Being "born again" or "born from above" is a biblical emphasis on the need for a totally new start (cf. Ezek. 36:26-27), a totally new family (cf. John 1:12-13; Rom. 5:12-21). Christianity is not a reformation or a new morality; it is a new relationship with God. This new relationship is made possible because of

1. the Father's mercy and grace (cf. Exod. 34:6; Neh. 9:17)

2. the Son's sacrificial death (cf. 2 Cor. 5:21) and resurrection from the dead (cf. 1 Corinthians 15)

3. the work of the Spirit (cf. John 3:6; 6:44,65; 1 Pet. 1:2)

This divine will (see Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan) and action gives believers a new life, a living hope, and a sure inheritance.
Utley.

besides Calvin's commentaries-what others would you recommend? Alford Barnes?

In this passage Calvin is saying it is not "born from above, but born AGAIN"

By the phrase born again is expressed not the correction of one part, but the renovation of the whole nature. Hence it follows, that there is nothing in us that is not sinful; for if reformation is necessary in the whole and in each part, corruption must have been spread throughout. On this point we shall soon have occasion to speak more largely. Erasmus, adopting the opinion of Cyril, has improperly translated the adverb ἄνωθεν, from above, and renders the clause thus: unless a man be born from above.

The Greek word, I own, is ambiguous; but we know that Christ conversed with Nicodemus in the Hebrew language. There would then have been no room for the ambiguity which occasioned the mistake of Nicodemus and led him into childish scruples about a second birth of the flesh. He therefore understood Christ to have said nothing else than that a man must be born again, before he is admitted into the kingdom of God.

Is this correct? Not born from above, but born AGAIN?

ἄνωθεν
anöthen
an'-o-then
From G507; from above; by analogy from the first; by implication anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top.

Thayer Definition:
1) from above, from a higher place
1a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again
Part of Speech: adverb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G507
More in NTW: G6077

Guess Thayer's Definition holds no water?


born = begotten. See note on Mat_1:2.

again = from above. Greek. anothen = from above: i.e. by Divine power, as in Joh_3:31; Joh_19:11, Joh_19:23. Mat_27:51. Mar_15:38. Luk_1:3. Jam_1:17; Jam_3:15, Jam_3:17. The Talmud uses this figure, as applied to proselytes.

Alford Barnes.

Be born again - The word translated here “again” means also “from above,” and is so rendered in the margin. It is evident, however, that Nicodemus understood, it not as referring to a birth “from above,” for if he had he would not have asked the question in Joh_3:4. It is probable that in the language which he used there was not the same ambiguity that there is in the Greek. The ancient versions all understood it as meaning “again,” or the “second time.”

RWP

Except a man be born anew (ean mē tis gennēthēi anōthen). Another condition of the third class, undetermined but with prospect of determination. First aorist passive subjunctive of gennaō. Anōthen. Originally “from above” (Mar_15:38), then “from heaven” (Joh_3:31), then “from the first” (Luk_1:3), and then “again” (palin anōthen, Gal_4:9). Which is the meaning here? The puzzle of Nicodemus shows (deuteron, Joh_3:4) that he took it as “again,” a second birth from the womb. The Vulgate translates it by renatus fuerit denuo. But the misapprehension of Nicodemus does not prove the meaning of Jesus. In the other passages in John (Joh_3:31; Joh_19:11, Joh_19:23) the meaning is “from above” (desuper) and usually so in the Synoptics. It is a second birth, to be sure, regeneration, but a birth from above by the Spirit.

Just because Calvin wrote-"Not born from above-but born AGAIN-I must/dei hold the same view?

Sorry for the long post-I hunger for truth-as it stands written-Perfect Tense.
Johann.

 

[JIM]

Yes, it is clear from Nicodemus' question that he thought Jesus said "born again".

 

[Johan]

As to Rom 10-20
There is none righteous - The Hebrew Psa_14:1 is, there is none that doeth good. The Septuagint has the same. The apostle quotes according to the sense of the passage. The design of the apostle is to show that none could be justified by the Law. He uses an expression, therefore, which is exactly conformable to his argument, and which accords in meaning with the Hebrew, “there is none just,” δίκαιος dikaios.

No, not one - This is not in the Hebrew, but is in the Septuagint.

It is a strong universal expression, denoting the state of almost universal corruption which existed in the time of the psalmist. The expression should not be interpreted to mean that there was not literally “one pious man” in the nation; but that the characteristic of the nation was, at that time, that it was exceedingly corrupt. Instead of being righteous, as the Jew claimed, because they were Jews, the testimony of their own Scriptures was, that they were universally wicked.
(The design of the apostle, however, is not to prove that there were few or none pious. He is treating of the impossibility of justification by works, and alleges in proof that, according to the judgment of God in the Psa_14:1 Psalm, there were none righteous, etc., in regard to their natural estate, or the condition in which man is, previous to his being justified.

In this condition, all are deficient in righteousness, and have nothing to commend them to the divine favor. What people may afterward become by grace is another question, on which the apostle does not, in this place, enter. Whatever number of pious people, therefore, there might be in various places of the world, the argument of the apostle is not in the least affected. It will hold good even in the millennium!)
Alford.
(98) Psa_14:1. The Hebrew is, “There is none that doeth good;” and the Septuagint, “There is none doing kindness, (χρηστότητα), there is not even one, (ὀυκ ἔστιν ἕως ἑνός.)” So that the Apostle quotes the meaning, not the words.
The eleventh verse (Rom_3:11) is from the same Psalm; the Hebrew, with which the Septuagint agree, except that there is the disjunctiveἢ between the participles, is the following, — “Whether there is any one who understands, who seeks after God.” — Ed.


Taking a verse here-and there-what does it make it?
Not being facetious.
Johann.

 

[Johan]

Yes, it is clear from Nicodemus' question that he thought Jesus said "born again".

Hi @JIM-dictionaries , Lexicons and the Targums says otherwise-

verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God; Nicodemus, according to the general sense of the nation, thought that when the Messiah came, and his kingdom was set up, they should all share in it, without any more ado; they being the descendants of Abraham, and having him for their father: but Christ assures him, that he must be "born again"; in distinction from, and opposition to his first birth by nature; in which he was vile, polluted, carnal, and corrupt, being conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity, and was a transgressor from the womb, and by nature a child of wrath; and in opposition to, his descent from Abraham, or being born of him, and of his seed; for this would be of no avail to him in this case, nor give him any right to the privileges and ordinances of the kingdom of God, or the Gospel dispensation; see Mat_3:9; as also to birth by proselytism;

for the Jews have a frequent saying (p), that
"one that is made a proselyte, כקטון שנולד דמי, "is like a child new born".''

Which they understand, not in a spiritual, but in a civil sense; such being free from all natural and civil relations, and from all obligations to parents, masters (q), &c. And by this phrase our Lord signifies, that no man, either as a man, or as a son of Abraham, or as a proselyte to the Jewish religion, can have any true knowledge of, or right unto, the enjoyment of the kingdom of God, unless he is born again; or regenerated, and quickened by the Spirit of God; renewed in the spirit of his mind; has Christ formed in his heart; becomes a partaker of the divine nature; and in all respects a new creature; and an other in heart, in principle, in practice, and conversation; or unless he be "born from above", as the word is rendered in Joh_3:31; that is, by a supernatural power, having the heavenly image stamped on him; and being called with an heavenly calling, even with the high calling of God in Christ Jesus:

if this is not the case, a man can have no true knowledge of the kingdom of the Messiah, which is not a temporal and carnal one; it is not of this world, nor does it come with observation; nor can he have any right to the ordinances of it, which are of a spiritual nature; and much less can he be thought to have any true notions, or to be possessed of the kingdom of grace, which lies in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost; or to have either a meetness for, or a right unto the kingdom of glory: though by the following words it seems, that the word is rightly rendered "again", or a second time, as it is by Nouns.
Gill.

Be born again (γεννηθῇ ἄνωθεν)
See on Luk_1:3. Literally, from the top (Mat_27:51). Expositors are divided on the rendering of ἄνωθεν, some translating, from above, and others, again or anew. The word is used in the following senses in the New Testament, where it occurs thirteen times:
1. From the top: Mat_27:51; Mar_15:38; Joh_19:23.
2. From above: Joh_3:31; Joh_19:11; Jas_1:17; Jas_3:15, Jas_3:17.
3. From the beginning: Luk_1:3; Act_26:5.
4. Again: Gal_4:9, but accompanied by πάλιν, again.

In favor of the rendering from above, it is urged that it corresponds to John's habitual method of describing the work of spiritual regeneration as a birth from God (Joh_1:13; 1Jn_3:9; 1Jn_4:7; 1Jn_5:1, 1Jn_5:4, 1Jn_5:8); and further, that it is Paul, and not John, who describes it as a new birth.

In favor of the other rendering, again, it may be said: 1. that from above does not describe the fact but the nature of the new birth, which in the logical order would be stated after the fact, but which is first announced if we render from above. If we translate anew or again, the logical order is preserved, the nature of the birth being described in Joh_3:5. 2.

That Nicodemus clearly understood the word as meaning again, since, in Joh_3:4, he translated it into a second time. 3. That it seems strange that Nicodemus should have been startled by the idea of a birth from heaven.
Canon Westcott calls attention to the traditional form of the saying in which the word ἀναγεννᾶσθαι, which can only mean reborn, is used as its equivalent. Again, however, does not give the exact force of the word, which is rather as Rev., anew, or afresh. Render, therefore, as Rev., except a man be born anew. The phrase occurs only in John's Gospel.
MV.

To me it is Imperative to have a healthy, amicable dialogue and not a one, or two liner answer or sentence.

Is it not fascinating that the Apostles gave us the full meaning of "Born from above" and not just "born again?"

Your take?
Johann.

 

[JIM]

Hi @JIM-dictionaries , Lexicons and the Targums says otherwise-

So then Nicodemus' problem was that either he didn't have dictionaries, Lexicons, and the Targums or he was just stupid. I get it.

 

[Johan]

So then Nicodemus' problem was that either he didn't have dictionaries, Lexicons, and the Targums or he was just stupid. I get it.

Think I will direct my questions to @Josheb -a very courteous man.
Your disrespect and arrogance noted.
J.

 

[Mr GLee]

So then Nicodemus' problem was that either he didn't have dictionaries, Lexicons, and the Targums or he was just stupid. I get it.

He simply followed the course of unconverted mankind no faith of Christ as it is writen coming from the law and prophets (sola scriptura )

Satan is the god of lying wonders moving the Pharisee Nicodemus .

God speaking through his prophet jesus commanded him to marvel or wonder not . . coming from one of those who refuse to believe in a unseen eternal God making Jesus into a circus seal

The law
John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Its testimony

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

[JIM]

Think I will direct my questions to @Josheb -a very courteous man.
Your disrespect and arrogance noted.
J.

You think Nicodemus was just trying to be funny with his question? That he really thought Jesus meant "born from above"? That doesn't make any sense irrespective of any dictionaries, Lexicons and Targums.

Besides, Peter apparently thought Jesus said "born again" (1 Peter 1:3, 23)

 

[Johan]

`By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.` (Heb. 11: 4)

Many more-
Isa_56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

Isa_65:12 Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Isa_66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose
that in which I delighted not.

Eze_21:19 Also, thou son of man, appoint thee two ways, that the sword of the king of Babylon may come: both twain shall come forth out of one land: and choose thou a place, choose it at the head of the way to the city.

Zec_1:17 Cry yet, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; My cities through prosperity shall yet be spread abroad; and the LORD shall yet comfort Zion, and shall yet choose Jerusalem.

Zec_2:12 And the LORD shall inherit Judah his portion in the holy land, and shall choose Jerusalem again.

Php_1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

Seven "Abstains" - Abstain From:
1. Idols (ACTS 15:20)
2. Fornication (ACTS 15:20,29; 1.THESS 4:2-3)
3. Strangled meats (ACTS 15:20)
4. Eating blood (ACTS 15:20)
5. Meats offered to idols (ACTS 15:29)
6. All appearance of evil (1.THESS 5:22)
7. Fleshly lusts (1.PET 2:11)
Seven things to avoid:
1. Troublemakers (ROM 16:17)
2. Profane and vain babblings (1.TIM 6:20)
3. False science (1.TIM 6:20)
4. Unlearned questions (2.TIM 2:23)
5. Foolish questions (TIT 3:9)
6. Genealogies (TIT 3:9)
7. Arguments about the law (TIT 3:9)
Three "Asks":
1. Ask and ye shall receive (MATT 7:7)
2. Ask no return of goods (LK 6:30)
3. Ask life for backsliders (1.JN 5:16)
Two things to awake to:
1. Awake to righteousness (1.COR 15:34)
2. Awake to life (EPH 5:14)
Seventy-four "Be's":
1. Be exceeding glad (MATT 5:12)
2. Be reconciled to a brother (MATT 5:24)
3. Be perfect (MATT 5:48; 2.COR 13:11)
4. Be wise as serpents (MATT 10:16)
5. Be harmless as doves (MATT 10:16)
6. Be ready for Christ's coming (MATT 24:44;
LK 12:40)
7. Be content with your wages (LK 3:14)
8. Be merciful as God (LK 6:36)
9. Be like faithful servants (LK 12:36)
10. Be thankful (COL 3:15)
11. Be at peace among selves (1.THESS 5:13)
12. Be patient toward all people
(1.THESS 5:14; 2.TIM 2:24)
13. Be no partaker of sin (1.TIM 5:22)
14. Be sober and hope (1.PET 1:13)
15. Be sober and pray (1.PET 4:7)
16. Be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith,
charity, and patience (aged men, TIT 2:2)
17. Be sober, love husbands and children (young
women, TIT 2:4)
18. Be sober minded (young men, TIT 2:6)
19. Be in behaviour as becoming to saints (aged
women, TIT 2:3)
20. Be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good,
obedient (young women, TIT 2:5)
21. Be ready to give an answer of the hope that
is in you (1.PET 3:15)
22. Be of good cheer (JN 16:33)
23. Be baptized (ACTS 2:38)
24. Be converted (ACTS 3:19)
25. Be transformed (ROM 12:2)
26. Be kind of brotherly love one to another
(ROM 12:10; EPH 4:32)
27. Be fervent in spirit (ROM 12:11)
28. Be patient in tribulation (ROM 12:12)
29. Be given to hospitality (ROM 12:13)
30. Be afraid, if lawless (ROM 13:4)
Category "1,050 NEW TESTAMENT COMMANDS"
1050 NT commands Page 2
31. Be no idolater (1.COR 10:7)
32. Be followers of Paul as he followed Christ
(1.COR 11:1; PHIL 3:17)
33. Be followers of God (EPH 5:1)
34. Be followers of the faithful and patient
(HEB 6:12)
35. Be not children in understanding
(1.COR 14:20)
36. Be men in understanding (1.COR 14:20)
37. Be steadfast (1.COR 15:58)
38. Be unmoveable (1.COR 15:58)
39. Be always abounding in God's work
(1.COR 15:58)
40. Be strong in the Lord (1.COR 16:13;
EPH 6:10; 2.TIM 2:1)
41. Be of good comfort (2.COR 13:11)
42. Be of one mind (ROM 12:16;
2.COR 13:11; PHIL 2:2; 1.PET 3:8)
43. Be separate from the unclean
(2.COR 6:17)
44. Be renewed in spirit (EPH 4:23)
45. Be angry and sin not (EPH 4:26)
46. Be tender-hearted one to another
(EPH 4:32)
47. Be filled with the Spirit (EPH 5:18)
48. Be likeminded (PHIL 2:2)
49. Be one of accord (PHIL 2:2)
50. Be anxious for nothing (PHIL 4:6)
51. Be an example to believers in word,
conversation, charity, spirit, faith, and purity
(1.TIM 4:12)
52. Be a partaker of Christian sufferings
(2.TIM 1:8; cp. 1.PET 4:1)
53. Be gentle to all people (2.TIM 2:24)
54. Be apt to teach (2.TIM 2:24)
55. Be instant in season, out of season
(2.TIM 4:2)
56. Be careful to maintain good works
(TIT 3:8,14; cp. MATT 5:16)
57. Be content with what you have (HEB 13:5)
58. Be doers of the Word (JAS 1:22)
59. Be afflicted and mourn (JAS 4:9)
60. Be patient till Christ comes (JAS 5:7-8)
61. Be holy in conversation (behaviour)
(1.PET 1:15-16)
62. Be pitiful (1.PET 3:8)
63. Be courteous (1.PET 3:8)
64. Be examples of the flock of God, not lord over
it (1.PET 5:3)
65. Be subject one to another (1.PET 5:5)
66. Be clothed with humility (1.PET 5:5)
67. Be sober (1.PET 5:8)
68. Be vigilant (1.PET 5:8)
69. Be mindful of prophecies and commandments (2.PET 3:2)
70. Be diligent to be found in peace (2.PET 3:14)
71. Be diligent to be without spot, and blameless
(2.PET 3:14)
72. Be faithful to death (REV 2:10)
73. Be watchful, strengthen self (REV 3:2)
74. Be zealous and repent (REV 3:19)

 

[Johan]

You think Nicodemus was just trying to be funny with his question? That he really thought Jesus meant "born from above"? That doesn't make any sense irrespective of any dictionaries, Lexicons and Targums.

Besides, Peter apparently thought Jesus said "born again" (1 Peter 1:3, 23)

Begat us again (anagennēsas hēmās). First aorist active articular (ho, who) participle of anagennaō, late, and rare word to beget again, in Aleph for Sirach (Prol. 20), in Philo, in Hermetic writings, in N.T. only here and 1Pe_1:23. “It was probably borrowed by the New Paganism from Christianity” (Bigg). The Stoics used anagennēsis for palingenesia (Tit_3:5). If anōthen in Joh_3:3 be taken to mean “again,” the same idea of regeneration is there, and if “from above” it is the new birth, anyhow.

Hath begotten us again (ἀναγεννήσας ἡμᾶς)
The verb is used by Peter only, and by him only here and 1Pe_1:23. It is in the aorist tense, and should be rendered, as Rev., begat; because regeneration is regarded as a definite historical act accomplished once for all, or possibly because Peter regards the historical act of Christ's resurrection as virtually effecting the regeneration. The latter sentiment would be Pauline, since Paul is wont to speak of Christians as dying and rising with Christ. Rom_7:4; Rom_6:8-11.

hath begotten . . . again = begat . . . again. Greek. anagennao. Only here and 1Pe_1:23.

But if the attainment of σωτηρία be conceived as the aim and end of the new birth, the hopes directed to it cannot be so, all the less that this hope forms an essential element of the new life itself. The verb ἀναγεννᾷν is here taken not as an absolute, but as a relative idea, its supplement lying in εις ἐλπ. ζ. (so also Steinmeyer, Weiss, Hofmann). The ἐλπὶς ζῶσα is then to be thought of as the life into which the mercy of God has raised or begotten the believer from the death of hopelessness (Eph_2:12 : ἐν τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ χωρὶς Χριστοῦ … ἐλπίδα μὴ ἔχοντες); the connection is the same as in Gal_4:24, where the simple γεννᾷν, is also construed with εἰς.[49] This view is justified, not only by the close connection of εἰς with the idea ἀναγεννᾷν, but also by the corresponding adj. ζῶσαν. In this there is no weakening of the idea ἀναγεννᾷν (in opposition to Wiesinger), for ἐλπίς need not be conceived as representing one single side of the Christian life, but under it may he understood the whole Christian life in its relation to the future σωτηρία. It is incorrect to take ἐλπίς here in the objective sense, as: object of hope; Aretius: res, quae spei subjectae sunt, h. e. vita aeterna; Bengel: haereditas coelestis; so also Hottinger, Hensler, etc. It is used rather in the subjective sense to denote the inward condition of life.


How about Paul? But the data might be a tad too "deep"
J.

 

[JIM]

Begat us again (anagennēsas hēmās).

I agree that it is again from above. None other than God could produce the change that results. However, I find it interesting that Calvinist/Reformed believing that the first birth results in a dead spirit would admit to the "again" interpretation. In that case born again (from above) would imply again producing a dead spirit, not a living spirit.

 

[Johan]

I agree that it is again from above. None other than God could produce the change that results. However, I find it interesting that Calvinist/Reformed believing that the first birth results in a dead spirit would admit to the "again" interpretation. In that case born again (from above) would imply again producing a dead spirit, not a living spirit.

Not necessarily-I am Baptist-but find it fascinating the whole debacle re faith precedes regeneration-or regeneration precedes faith and that somehow the boule/thelema is "bound"-

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph_2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

My question is-"Is the boule/thelema of the believer still bound AFTER regeneration i.e. able/unable to make choices?

I have also found that for every Scripture reference given it is Imperative to look at context.
Johann.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Do you have total recall of the Scriptures?

Do you know the names of your children? The names of your wife? Do you know what they like or dislike?

What you care about, you know. I can remember the Scriptures about as well as most. David said that he put the Scriptures in his heart so he wouldn't sin. However, he certainly sinned. So did these.

 

[prism]

Do you know the names of your children? The names of your wife? Do you know what they like or dislike?

What you care about, you know. I can remember the Scriptures about as well as most. David said that he put the Scriptures in his heart so he wouldn't sin. However, he certainly sinned. So did these.

ok, whatever

 

[sawdust]

I have heard this used

John 3:3 NASB95
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Meaning one cannot begin to perceive or understand the things of God unless they are first born again. Faith would be impossible under those circumstances, coupled with Rom 3:10-20.

That is true, faith is impossible under those conditions which is why grace steps up to bat first. We are saved (which is regeneration) by grace through faith. (Eph.2:8) If the Lord did not act first and control the sin nature so that our will can be free to accept or reject His truth, no-one would be saved. That He has declared He will save those believing in Him is our guarantee of salvation. No doing on our part saves us. Even the faith we have is generated, not by our willingness to believe, but by the word within. (Rom.10:17) This is why Paul says even this is a gift of God. Without His grace and His word we all would remain dead without hope, without life, without Christ.

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree that it is again from above. None other than God could produce the change that results. However, I find it interesting that Calvinist/Reformed believing that the first birth results in a dead spirit would admit to the "again" interpretation. In that case born again (from above) would imply again producing a dead spirit, not a living spirit.

First birth results in the awakening of a new spirit (let there be) previously a spirit dying leading toward destruction never to rise to new spirit life. The living spirit of God. . the Father of all spirit life giving spirit life to the dead (let there be.) . . Jesus said his own flesh signified as sinful it profits for nothing.