Reading/Hearing Scripture is only a start

[Bob Carabbio]

What do you consider salvation?

When a person under CONVICTION OF SIN, Repents, and calls upon God IN FAITH to be saved, which results instantly in the Person being infilled by the Holy Spirit, and cleansed of their SIN.

You don't agree regeneration is salvation?

Oh - I AGREE that "Regeneration", being "Born Again", and "Getting Saved" are synonymous terms, so no problem there.

But I've been told several times right here by Calvinist adherents, that "Regeneration" IS NOT "Salvation". and there's the silly argument about "what comes first" - i.e. "Regeneration", or "FAITH".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What part of 1 Co 2:14 do you not understand?

No part. it's clear that the natural man doesn't know/understand SQUAT about Spiritual things.

You're rather confused.

Chuckle!! One of us is for sure.

It was Jesus who invented Jn 3:3-8.

Absolutely. No question about it.

So???

 

[prism]

Being spiritually alive, having the indwelling of the Spirit and reading the scripture is not enough which, is what I took from your OP. It's why Paul commands us to be filled with the Spirit so that we can understand on a daily basis what we hear from the word. Being under the Spirit's control can be lost when we sin and when we are in that position, if we do not recognise our sin as sin and confess it, we will not comprehend spiritual matters. We need the Spirit to enlighten us.

Even at that, when we go South, He has His way of disciplining us, (Heb 12:5-11) to restore us to Himself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't quite understand.

Jesus often reminded people of what He had already told them before. It wasn't that they didn't know. It was the fact that refused to believe. Unbelief.

Jesus called his own disciples "fools".

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

 

[Johan]

Here is why...

Luke 24:45
And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures.

24:45 "He opened their minds" See note at Luke 24:31. Humanity cannot understand spiritual truths unaided by God. This is the task usually assigned to the Spirit (cf. John 14:16; 16:8-15), but sometime attributed to Jesus (cf. Acts 16:14).

ILLUMINATION

God has acted in the past to clearly reveal Himself to mankind (i.e., creation, flood, call of Patriarchs, exodus, conquest, etc.). In theology this is called "revelation." He selected certain men to record and explain this self-revelation (e.g., John 14:26; 16:12-15). In theology this is called "inspiration." He has sent His Spirit to help readers understand Him and His promises and provisions, especially the coming of Messiah. In theology this is called "illumination." The problem arises, if the Spirit is involved in understanding God—why are there so many interpretations of Him and His will and way?

Part of the problem lies in the reader's pre-understanding or personal experiences. Often a personal agenda is advocated by using the Bible in a proof-text or atomistic fashion. Often a theological grid is imposed over the Bible allowing it to speak only in certain areas and in selected ways. Illumination simply cannot be equated with inspiration although the Holy Spirit is involved in each. Inspiration (see Special Topic: Inspiration) has ceased with the NT (i.e., Jude 3,20). Most NT texts which relate to illumination refer to knowledge about the gospel and the Christlike life (i.e., Rom. 8:12-17; 1 Cor. 2:10-13; Eph. 1:17-19; Phil. 1:9-11; Col. 1:9-13; 1 John 2:20-27). This, in reality, is one of the promises of the "new covenant" (cf. Jer. 31:31-34, esp. v. 34).

The best approach to allow the Spirit to help believers understand revelation may be to attempt to assert the central idea of a paragraph, not interpret every detail of the text. It is the topical thought which conveys the original author's central truth. Outlining the book or literary unit helps one follow the intent of the original inspired author. No interpreter is inspired. We cannot reproduce the biblical writer's method of interpretation (i.e., inspiration). We can and must attempt to understand what they were saying to their day and then communicate that truth to our own day. There are parts of the Bible that are ambiguous or hidden (until a certain time or period). There will always be disagreements on some texts and subjects but we must state clearly the central truths and allow freedom for individual believer's interpretations within the boundary of the original author's intent. Interpreters must walk in the light they have, always being open to more light from the Bible and the Spirit. God will judge us based on the level of our understanding and how we live out that understanding.
Utley.

J.

 

[Johan]

Of course they were born again. If not, then they were still dead in their sin. To be born again is to be made spiritually alive.

Ephesians 2:1
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

A. The Gnostic and Jewish emphasis on human works-oriented salvation is depreciated by Paul's emphasis on

1. God's election in Eph. 1:3-14

2. God's wisdom, knowledge and revelation, Eph. 1:15-23

3. God's initiating grace in Eph. 2:1-10

4. the mystery of God's redemptive plan hidden from the ages (i.e., Jew and Gentile now are one in Christ) in Eph. 2:11-3:13

Paul emphasizes the four things in which humans have no part! Salvation is all of God (cf. Eph. 1:3-14; 2:4-7), but individuals must personally respond (cf. Eph. 2:8-9) and live in light of the New Covenant (Eph. 2:10).

B. There are three enemies of fallen humanity delineated in Eph. 2:2-3 (cf. James 4:1,4,7):

1. the fallen world system, Eph. 2:2

2. the angelic adversary, Satan, Eph. 2:2

3. mankind's fallen nature (Adamic nature), Eph. 2:3

Verses 1-3 show the hopelessness and helplessness of fallen mankind apart from and in rebellion to God (cf. Rom. 1:18-2:16).

C. As Eph. 2:1-3 describe the pitiable state of humanity, Eph. 2:4-6 contrast the riches of God's love and mercy for fallen mankind. Human sin is bad, but God's love and mercy are greater (cf. Rom. 5:20)! What God did for Christ (cf. Eph. 1:20), Christ has now done for believers (cf. Eph. 2:5-6).



D. There is real tension in the New Testament between the free grace of God and human effort. This tension can be expressed in paradoxical pairs:

1. indicative (a statement) and imperative (a command);

2. grace/faith objective (the content of the gospel) and subjective (one's experience of the gospel);

3. won the race (in Christ) and now run the race (for Christ).

This tension is clearly seen in Eph. 2:8-9, which emphasizes grace, while Eph. 2:10 emphasizes good works. It is not an either/or but a both/and theological proposition. However, grace always comes first and is the foundation of a Christlike lifestyle. Verses 8-10 are a classical summary of the paradox of the Christian gospel-free, but it costs everything! Faith and works (cf. James 2:14-26)!



E. A new topic is introduced in Eph. 2:11-3:13. It is the mystery, hidden from the beginning, that God desires the redemption of all mankind, Jew (cf. Ezek. 18:23,32) and Gentile (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9), through personal faith in the substitutionary atonement of the Messiah. This universal offer of salvation was predicted in Gen. 3:15 and 12:3. This radically free forgiveness (cf. Rom. 5:12-21) shocked the Jews and all religious elitists (Gnostic false teachers, Judaizers) and all modern "works-righteousness" proponents.

 

[Johan]

As Calvinists hopefully they know regeneration comes first.

Although I realize this is a Reformed Forum-can you give me a Scripture reference that regeneration precedes faith?
J.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Although I realize this is a Reformed Forum-can you give me a Scripture reference that regeneration precedes faith?

Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the words spoken by Paul..." The Lord acting to open Lydia's heart preceded the result of her "attending" on those words.

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear..." combines with "The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them". The Lord's creation of the ability to hear and see spiritual truths must precede the actual "hearing" and "seeing".

"Ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep", Christ said. "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." The identity of an individual as a "sheep" already exists before they "hear" the voice of the shepherd. Those who do not believe are only proving that they do not have the status of sheep. The identity as already being sheep or not will precede the action or non-action of believing, hearing, and following.

In the natural birth of a baby, a living state from conception precedes the first breath of life taken, in the same way that spiritual life must be given first before the first "breath" of living belief is taken. This proves that eternal life has already been given prior to that belief.

 

[Johan]

Agreed, that's why this thread has the title 'Reading/hearing Scripture is only a start', we need God's Spirit to illuminate our understanding to comprehend His Word, not just do the academics of His Word.

20:22 "He breathed on them" This is a word play on the term "breathed." The Hebrew ruach and Greek pneuma can mean "breathe," "wind," or "spirit." This same VERB in the Septuagint was used in the OT of God's creative activity in Gen. 2:7 and the revitalization of Israel in Ezek. 37:5,9. The PRONOUN "them" refers to a wider group than just the Apostles (cf. Luke 24:33).

Special Topic: Breath, Wind, Spirit

"Receive the Holy Spirit"

This is an AORIST ACTIVE IMPERATIVE. How this relates to the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost is uncertain. Jesus fulfilled everything that He promised the disciples at this first appearance. It is related to Jesus' equipping them for their new ministry assignment as the Spirit equipped Him at His baptism.

This verse was used in the early church's fight over the question of the Spirit proceeding from the Father or from the Father and the Son. In reality all three persons of the Trinity are involved in all the acts of redemption.

In A Theology of the New Testament, George Ladd summarizes the possible interpretations of this passage:

"This passage raises difficulties in the light of the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost, which may be solved in one of three ways. Either John did not know about Pentecost and substitutes this story so that it becomes in effect the Johannine Pentecost; or there were actually two gifts of the Spirit; or Jesus' breathing on the disciples was an acted parable promissory and anticipatory to the actual coming of the Spirit at Pentecost" (p. 289).

The footnote #24 (p. 1965) in the NET Bible asserts that this recalls Gen. 2:7 (LXX). As physical life was given in Genesis, eternal life is given in the NT. This emphasis on "the breath of God" is paralleled with Ezekiel 37, where YHWH brings new life to His people by the breath of the Spirit.

 

[Johan]

Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the words spoken by Paul..." The Lord acting to open Lydia's heart preceded the result of her "attending" on those words.

whose heart the Lord opened; which was before shut and barred, with the bars of ignorance, hardness, and unbelief. The heart of a sinner before conversion, is like a house shut up, and wholly in darkness; whatever degree of natural or moral light is in it, there is none in spiritual things; it is empty of the grace of God, of the fear of him, and love to him; it is without proper inhabitants, without God, Christ, and the Spirit; and is the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, who delight in dark and desolate places; it is bolted and barred with unbelief, and walled up, and even petrified and hardened with sin, and is guarded and garrisoned by Satan, and its goods are kept in peace by him: and this had been the case of Lydia; but now the Lord opened her understanding, and put light into it, which was before darkness itself; as to spiritual things; by which she saw her wretched, sinful, and miserable state by nature, the insufficiency of all ways and means, and works, to justify and save her, and the necessity, suitableness, and fulness of grace and salvation by Christ; which was done by the same divine power, that at first created light in darkness: moreover, the Lord wrought upon her affections, and engaged them to divine and spiritual things; creating love in her soul to Christ, to his people, truths and ordinances; which was done by his almighty hand, taking away the stony heart, and giving an heart of flesh: he also removed the bar of unbelief, entered in himself, dispossessed Satan, and worked faith in her, to look to him, lay hold on him, and receive him, as her Saviour and Redeemer; making her willing in the day of his power, to be saved by him, and to serve him: it is a petition the Jews frequently make

(x), in their prayers to God, דתפתח לבאי, "that thou wouldst open my heart", in thy law; or as sometimes, open our hearts in the doctrine of thy law: not Lydia herself, nor the Apostle Paul, but the Lord opened her heart; Jehovah the Father, who commanded light out of darkness; Jehovah the Son, who has the key of the house of David; Jehovah the Spirit, who convinces of sin, righteousness, and judgment:

Yes, I can see that.

 

[Eleanor]

Adam died spiritually. Physical death is the outward manifestation of the inner reality.

Adam died both spiritually and physically, both deaths being the result of the same cause--sin.
However, Adam and Eve were restored to spiritual life and governed by God (Ge 4:1).
Their physical death was not a manifestation of inner death, for they were spiritually alive,
it was the consequence of their sin, as is my physical death.

Likewise, I am not spiritually dead, I am alive in Christ. Physical death is not the outward manifestation of my inner reality.

The word used in Rom.6:23 is "thanatos" which is usually used in reference to spiritual death, not physical.

Except in the dozens of places where it is not (e.g., Jn 11:13, Heb 2:15, 5:7, 7:23, etc.).

Adam's descendants do not die spiritually.
They are born in spiritual death, they do not incur spiritual death, they are never not spiritually dead, until they are born again,
and that is only a remnant, when they are then never spiritually dead again.
Whereas, physical death does not occur until the spirit departs the body.
Any death occurring on earth is physical death only.

Which is precisely why you should understand your salvation is from spiritual death and not physical death. But it seems you don't. Never mind, we were all without understanding at one time. We each must grow at our own pace.

Is the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Eleanor]

When a person under CONVICTION OF SIN, Repents, and calls upon God IN FAITH to be saved, which results instantly in the Person being infilled by the Holy Spirit, and cleansed of their SIN.

Oh - I AGREE that "Regeneration", being "Born Again", and "Getting Saved" are synonymous terms, so no problem there.

But I've been told several times right here by Calvinist adherents, that "Regeneration" IS NOT "Salvation". and there's the silly argument about "what comes first" - i.e. "Regeneration", or "FAITH".

It's not silly, there is no faith without regeneration.

We don't know if the Holy Spirit regenerates, and then three weeks later they hear the gospel and believe, or
if the Holy Spirit regenerates simultaneously with their hearing.
However, I guess my experience could be described as hearing by regeneration, and then a powerful infilling, or it could be described as hearing by infilling.
Who knows?

 

[Eleanor]

No part. it's clear that the natural man doesn't know/understand SQUAT about Spiritual things.

Chuckle!! One of us is for sure.

Absolutely. No question about it.

So???

See post #89.

 

[sawdust]

A. The Gnostic and Jewish emphasis on human works-oriented salvation is depreciated by Paul's emphasis on

1. God's election in Eph. 1:3-14

2. God's wisdom, knowledge and revelation, Eph. 1:15-23

3. God's initiating grace in Eph. 2:1-10

4. the mystery of God's redemptive plan hidden from the ages (i.e., Jew and Gentile now are one in Christ) in Eph. 2:11-3:13

Paul emphasizes the four things in which humans have no part! Salvation is all of God (cf. Eph. 1:3-14; 2:4-7), but individuals must personally respond (cf. Eph. 2:8-9) and live in light of the New Covenant (Eph. 2:10).

B. There are three enemies of fallen humanity delineated in Eph. 2:2-3 (cf. James 4:1,4,7):

1. the fallen world system, Eph. 2:2

2. the angelic adversary, Satan, Eph. 2:2

3. mankind's fallen nature (Adamic nature), Eph. 2:3

Verses 1-3 show the hopelessness and helplessness of fallen mankind apart from and in rebellion to God (cf. Rom. 1:18-2:16).

C. As Eph. 2:1-3 describe the pitiable state of humanity, Eph. 2:4-6 contrast the riches of God's love and mercy for fallen mankind. Human sin is bad, but God's love and mercy are greater (cf. Rom. 5:20)! What God did for Christ (cf. Eph. 1:20), Christ has now done for believers (cf. Eph. 2:5-6).



D. There is real tension in the New Testament between the free grace of God and human effort. This tension can be expressed in paradoxical pairs:

1. indicative (a statement) and imperative (a command);

2. grace/faith objective (the content of the gospel) and subjective (one's experience of the gospel);

3. won the race (in Christ) and now run the race (for Christ).

This tension is clearly seen in Eph. 2:8-9, which emphasizes grace, while Eph. 2:10 emphasizes good works. It is not an either/or but a both/and theological proposition. However, grace always comes first and is the foundation of a Christlike lifestyle. Verses 8-10 are a classical summary of the paradox of the Christian gospel-free, but it costs everything! Faith and works (cf. James 2:14-26)!



E. A new topic is introduced in Eph. 2:11-3:13. It is the mystery, hidden from the beginning, that God desires the redemption of all mankind, Jew (cf. Ezek. 18:23,32) and Gentile (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9), through personal faith in the substitutionary atonement of the Messiah. This universal offer of salvation was predicted in Gen. 3:15 and 12:3. This radically free forgiveness (cf. Rom. 5:12-21) shocked the Jews and all religious elitists (Gnostic false teachers, Judaizers) and all modern "works-righteousness" proponents.

Can't say I disagree. Just not sure why you said it in relation to being born from above (regeneration). Even so, I appreciate it.

 

[sawdust]

Adam died both spiritually and physically, both deaths being the result of the same cause--sin.
However, Adam and Eve were restored to spiritual life and governed by God (Ge 4:1).
Their physical death was not a manifestation of inner death, for they were spiritually alive,
it was the consequence of their sin, as is my physical death.

Likewise, I am not spiritually dead, I am alive in Christ. Physical death is not the outward manifestation of my inner reality.

Only because of God's grace, otherwise you would remain remain spiritually dead to die physically. What is translated as "surely die" is literally "die to die". In other words, to die spiritually means to die physically.

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Adam's descendants do not die spiritually.
They are born in spiritual death, they do not incur spiritual death, they are never not spiritually dead, until they are born again,
and that is only a remnant, when they are then never spiritually dead again.
Whereas, physical death does not occur until the spirit departs the body.
Any death occurring on earth is physical death only.

Precisely. The wages of sin is death and death entered through one man. Spiritual death is the problem which is why one must be born again. Having Adam's sin imputed to us at birth is why we are born sinners. We were born dead spiritually and in time physically because of the sin nature in our flesh.

Is the pot calling the kettle black?

No, simply making an observation. When it comes to the human condition, your knowledge is limited. You are unable to distinguish between soul and spirit. You think being born again is the Spirit imputing eternal life to our spirit which is what makes it come alive. And now you think the wages of sin is physical death not spiritual death. If that were the case we would all be still born.

As this conversation is way off topic, I don't intend to pursue it further.

Have a nice day.

 

[prism]

Jesus often reminded people of what He had already told them before. It wasn't that they didn't know. It was the fact that refused to believe. Unbelief.

Jesus called his own disciples "fools".

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

As fallen creatures, we have a fallen memory ability which I wouldn't necessarily regard as sin.
Hence the admonition...

Hebrews 2:1 NASB
For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.

 

[Eleanor]

Only because of God's grace, otherwise you would remain remain spiritually dead to die physically.

Spiritual life has no effect on my physical death.

I am going to die physically even though I am not spiritually alive.

What is translated as "surely die" is literally "die to die". In other words, to die spiritually means to die physically.

"Dying, you shall die."

Genesis 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
Precisely. The wages of sin is death and death entered through one man. Spiritual death is the problem which is why one must be born again. Having Adam's sinimputed to us at birth is why we are born sinners. We were born dead spiritually and in time physically because of the sin nature in our flesh.
No, simply making an observation. When it comes to the human condition, your knowledge is limited. You are unable to distinguish between soul and spirit. You think being born again is the Spirit imputing eternal life to our spirit which is what makes it come alive.

And you are mistaken about what I think.
My immortal human spirit is alive with or without eternal life.
If it weren't immortal, I wouldn't exist.

And now you think the wages of sin is physical death not spiritual death. If that were the case we would all be still born.

There can be no death for the stillborn.

 

[Arial]

Although I realize this is a Reformed Forum-can you give me a Scripture reference that regeneration precedes faith?
J

John 3:3 And Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God,"
5. Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Without regeneration first a person cannot even see the kingdom of God, let alone enter it. The water in that verse, as Nicodemus should have known is a direct reference to Is 32:15, 44:3; Ez 36:25-27 where water and Spirit are linked to express the pouring out of God's Spirit and the purification and cleansing that flow from this regeneration (new birth.) It can be seen as a cleansing so we can come to a holy God. which sinners cannot do. It always leads to hearing and believing the gospel. They happen together but are distinct.

 

[prism]

Although I realize this is a Reformed Forum-can you give me a Scripture reference that regeneration precedes faith?
J.

It's a deal if you can produce Scripture showing faith precedes regeneration.

 

[Johan]

It's a deal if you can produce Scripture showing faith precedes regeneration.

I have none-that's why I have joined this Forum @prism
Johann.