Question for Historicists

[Josheb]

Every Eschatological viewpoint does some Inferences and assumptions

That is true. The questions that fact begs is,

Are the inferences exegetic or eisegetic in nature?
Which eschatology is built upon the most explicit statements in God's word, least number of inferences and the least number of eisegetic inferences?

But that has nothing to do with this op! This op asks the Historicist how much contemporary Historicism has been influenced by Dispensationalism. How much may an individual Historicist, like yourself, @JesusFan been influenced by Dispensationalism unawares?

That is the question to be answered. This thread is solely about Historical Premillennialism and even more specifically about the prospect DPism is influencing on the HPer. This is NOT a thread on comparative eschatology.

Yes; I say they all have some sort of 'Gap Theory'. Their gap may not be labeled a Gap Theory; but it's there...

Are you a subscriber to Historic Premillennialism?

The only one dead wrong would be full blown preterism

Incorrect. When the end times end only one eschatology will be demonstrated to have been correct. ALL the others will be wrong. Dead wrong.

Blessedly salvation-by-eschatology is not a thing






To reiterate and summarize:

• Do you Historical Premillennialists perceive a growing influence of Dispensational Premillennialism within your ranks?
• How aware are you, as a Historic Premillennialist, of the differences between the two premillennialisms?
• How consciously are those differences maintained in your own apologetics?

These inquiries are intended specifically for the Historical Premillennialists members of the forum, but others are also invited to contribute their observations on the matter of whether and to what degree Dispensationalism is now influencing Historicism.

 

[Bruiser]

That is true. The questions that fact begs is,

Are the inferences exegetic or eisegetic in nature?
Which eschatology is built upon the most explicit statements in God's word, least number of inferences and the least number of eisegetic inferences?

But that has nothing to do with this op! This op asks the Historicist how much contemporary Historicism has been influenced by Dispensationalism. How much may an individual Historicist, like yourself, @JesusFan been influenced by Dispensationalism unawares?

That is the question to be answered. This thread is solely about Historical Premillennialism and even more specifically about the prospect DPism is influencing on the HPer. This is NOT a thread on comparative eschatology.

Are you a subscriber to Historic Premillennialism?

Incorrect. When the end times end only one eschatology will be demonstrated to have been correct. ALL the others will be wrong. Dead wrong.

Blessedly salvation-by-eschatology is not a thing






To reiterate and summarize:

• Do you Historical Premillennialists perceive a growing influence of Dispensational Premillennialism within your ranks?
• How aware are you, as a Historic Premillennialist, of the differences between the two premillennialisms?
• How consciously are those differences maintained in your own apologetics?

These inquiries are intended specifically for the Historical Premillennialists members of the forum, but others are also invited to contribute their observations on the matter of whether and to what degree Dispensationalism is now influencing Historicism.

I'm not a subscrber to any Eschat; ceptin' maybe Amillenialism and Partial Preterism. That's what I learned in the Reformed Baptist Church. As long as I've been Christian, I'm still a layman at Eschatology. I think I've got a learning disability when it comes to Eschatology; it's not my thing...

I'm wanting to hang out on the Eschat board, hoping something might stick. But so many Posts are way too lengthy...

 

[Josheb]

I'm not a subscrber to any Eschat.......

Then please help me keep the conversations focused on the single matter of Dispensational Premillennialism's influence on the older, more historical and more scriptural Historic Premillennialism. tia

@JesusFan, if I may. It's been my observation you have difficulty maintaining a single line of reason through many discussions and are invariably prone to adding unrelated matters to a conversation no matter the topic. Some of that is common to everyone and, therefore, to be expected. I hope that appraisal does not cause offence. To the degree it is an accurate assessment it is my hope that CCAM's threads will hone your skills, particularly the ability to stay on topic. What I have asked ALL Historicists may not be easily answered because it requires some introspection and some knowledge of DPism and the differences between DPism and HPism. Since you're the only HPer to contribute to the thread so far, I hope you'll consider your own views - what it is you genuinely believe - and measure them against what DPism teaches for three reasons: 1) you can contribute more to this thread, 2) you solidify your own eschatology, making sure it is not adulterated by DPism, and 3) you and I set an example for the lurkers.

Everyone already knows I am not premillennialist but that is not what this op is about. The op was not written and I am not here to rag on HPism. Even though I disagree with HPism I think it a much more valid eschatological alternative than DPism (which I hold to be a godless work of the flesh that is incompatible with historic orthodox Christianity).


I would just like to know if you're aware of any Dispensational influence in contemporary Historicism and, if so, then how so.

@Bruiser, the ops are lengthy, but I've written a half-dozen ops critical of Dispensational Premillennialism. All six have been posted here in CCAM; only one or two in in other forums. We're thin on DPists here in CCAM and they're not very good apologists in general so there's not much discussion from the DPers but you might enjoy the reads. Just scroll through my ops list and you'll find them.

 

[JesusFan]

Then please help me keep the conversations focused on the single matter of Dispensational Premillennialism's influence on the older, more historical and more scriptural Historic Premillennialism. tia

@JesusFan, if I may. It's been my observation you have difficulty maintaining a single line of reason through many discussions and are invariably prone to adding unrelated matters to a conversation no matter the topic. Some of that is common to everyone and, therefore, to be expected. I hope that appraisal does not cause offence. To the degree it is an accurate assessment it is my hope that CCAM's threads will hone your skills, particularly the ability to stay on topic. What I have asked ALL Historicists may not be easily answered because it requires some introspection and some knowledge of DPism and the differences between DPism and HPism. Since you're the only HPer to contribute to the thread so far, I hope you'll consider your own views - what it is you genuinely believe - and measure them against what DPism teaches for three reasons: 1) you can contribute more to this thread, 2) you solidify your own eschatology, making sure it is not adulterated by DPism, and 3) you and I set an example for the lurkers.

Everyone already knows I am not premillennialist but that is not what this op is about. The op was not written and I am not here to rag on HPism. Even though I disagree with HPism I think it a much more valid eschatological alternative than DPism (which I hold to be a godless work of the flesh that is incompatible with historic orthodox Christianity).


I would just like to know if you're aware of any Dispensational influence in contemporary Historicism and, if so, then how so.

@Bruiser, the ops are lengthy, but I've written a half-dozen ops critical of Dispensational Premillennialism. All six have been posted here in CCAM; only one or two in in other forums. We're thin on DPists here in CCAM and they're not very good apologists in general so there's not much discussion from the DPers but you might enjoy the reads. Just scroll through my ops list and you'll find them.

Think also we would need to sort out the differing views among Dispy brethren , as not all of them fall now under classic Scofieldism view

 

[Josheb]

Think also we would need to sort out the differing views among Dispy brethren , as not all of them fall now under classic Scofieldism view

Only where those differences may be influencing Historical Premillennialism This op is not about comparative commentary. The only aspects of DPism that are relevant to this discussion are those that are influencing Historicism.

For example, both premillennialisms hold to a literal understanding of Revelation 20's "thousand years." When it comes to a historical understanding of Historical Premillennialism, HPism has not generally held the geo-political nation-state of Israel was particularly salient or germane to Christian eschatology. There was no Israel when Christian eschatology was first formed. God had destroyed the nation. It did not exist. Christians formed their early core doctrines of the faith in that absence. Eschatology wasn't considered a prominent doctrine. Nonetheless, many (MANY!) premillennialists going all the way back to the ECFs have thought God would bring the Jews back to the land He promised them. Christian eschatology remained Christian and it did not depend on the existence of Israel. Examine this chart HERE. This chart was made by a Dispensational Premillennialist. Notice the question, "Is the modern state of Israel relevant to the prophecies in Revelation?" Everyone but the Dispensationalist says, "No."

It would be my observation that more and more Historicists now think Israel is relevant to the prophecies of Revelation.

What do you think about that specific, particular, singular premise?


And do you have any other specific observations about how DPism may be influencing HPism?

 

[JesusFan]

Only where those differences may be influencing Historical Premillennialism This op is not about comparative commentary. The only aspects of DPism that are relevant to this discussion are those that are influencing Historicism.

For example, both premillennialisms hold to a literal understanding of Revelation 20's "thousand years." When it comes to a historical understanding of Historical Premillennialism, HPism has not generally held the geo-political nation-state of Israel was particularly salient or germane to Christian eschatology. There was no Israel when Christian eschatology was first formed. God had destroyed the nation. It did not exist. Christians formed their early core doctrines of the faith in that absence. Eschatology wasn't considered a prominent doctrine. Nonetheless, many (MANY!) premillennialists going all the way back to the ECFs have thought God would bring the Jews back to the land He promised them. Christian eschatology remained Christian and it did not depend on the existence of Israel. Examine this chart HERE. This chart was made by a Dispensational Premillennialist. Notice the question, "Is the modern state of Israel relevant to the prophecies in Revelation?" Everyone but the Dispensationalist says, "No."

It would be my observation that more and more Historicists now think Israel is relevant to the prophecies of Revelation.

What do you think about that specific, particular, singular premise?


And do you have any other specific observations about how DPism may be influencing HPism?

Since the time of Pentecost, the oly Spirit has been calling out and saving in among Jewish people the faithful remnant, and do see the Great tribulation as when he turns back full time to prepare the Jewish people to be able to receive Jesus as their promised messiah at second coming event. Not Israel the nation, but the jewish people themelves

 

[Josheb]

Since the time of Pentecost, the oly Spirit has been calling out and saving in among Jewish people the faithful remnant, and do see the Great tribulation as when he turns back full time to prepare the Jewish people to be able to receive Jesus as their promised messiah at second coming event. Not Israel the nation, but the jewish people themelves

What does that have to do with the question you were asked?