PSA: What is Implied in Christ's Substitution; What Death Did He Die?

[Hazelelponi]

you think 3.51 billion of them are beaten so badly they cannot be recognized as human before they die?

Oh my goodness...

 

[makesends]

Do you think there is a difference between "eternity," "infinite," and "everlasting"? If so, would you please provide a short definition of each that explains the terms and its difference(s) with the other two words?

All three, as we mean the terms, are three ways to look at what we can only try to understand. They are about the same thing. You apparently are on about something here. Out with it.

Let me clarify my earlier statement because I can see I left out a word.

If either of those populations (those then imprisoned and those physically dead) included people in hell, then he was extraordinarily busy.

Clearly, dead people are not living . No false equivalence is made.

Yes, what was it I was just told, "sounds to me more like speculation than substantive thought"? Yes, I did see the "if". I'll clarify my earlier post again because I said, "irrelevant" and not "not irrelevant," That was a typo done in haste. I did not mean to misrepresent the post. If three days are specified, then the relevance of time is redundant. You were saying if time is not irrelevant then time is relevant. You were saying if time is not irrelevant then time (three days) is relevant. I suspect something was going on in your thinking that didn't quite make it out of the keyboard as thought. Not a big deal, just making an observation.

I give up. You win. I don't care about that. Let's get back to the point of the OP.

Right. No one does. Any answer anyone might offer will be speculative because scripture is silent as to the specifics of that matter. However, if we are going to speculate or hypothesize, it is best to start with what is explicitly stated in scripture. Which is exactly what I did.

If the imprisoned and dead populations to which Peter referred included those physically dead and/or in the grave..... then Jesus was very busy for three days because he managed to preach the gospel to everyone therein. That is a lot more people than he spoke to while physically alive on the earth during the three years of his ministry. Maybe, just maybe, that bunch of folks who qualified as the imprisoned and dead were just the elect. I am inclined not to say so, but that is a reasonable possibility. Either way, those are two passages that could be used to answer the question, "what happened during those 3 days he was 'gone'?"

I might also digress into an examination of "gone," because Jesus is always everywhere. Just because his physical body of flesh and blood was sitting in a tomb, Jesus' presence is not limited to his physical body.

Of course.

More specific and germane to the op and the specific question of what he was doing while dead for three days,

Thank you, yes, let's get back to the subject.

• Jesus' existence is different from that of the human sinner.
• Jesus' life lived on earth was different from that of the human sinner.
• Jesus' death is different from that of the human sinner.
• There are two purposes served in his life, death, and resurrection.
• For the elect, physical death is merely one inevitable waypoint along the process of God's purpose making incorruptible and immortal people in His image. For the non-elect that death is merely a waypoint onto greater destruction.
• Having a correct definition of hell matters and most of psa is built on the endless torture model of hell (which may not be correct). For example, Jesus was not under the authority of some lesser god or demon while he was physically dead.

Endless torment is not the same as endless torture, but I grant that historically, people for some fool reason think Satan is king there, instead of himself in torment. But your statement about Jesus being there is germaine to the subject of the OP. Where, is "there"? What do we mean by he was in "hell"?

• Anything said about what Jesus was doing while physically dead in the grave is necessarily speculative, but some speculations are more scripturally informed and more rationally viable than others.
• The grave is not infinite. Neither is death. Death and the grave are also not eternal (although death might be considered everlasting).

I should think that would depend on what is meant by death. If it is only an undoing, then agreed. If, on the other hand, it is, for example, torment of a sentient being who is made in the image of God having been separated from infinite God, it is of some kind or other of infinite 'reality'. Either way, speculation or not, I think that God's justice necessarily would have to be satisfied, and, to me, so far, the notion of Christ's "mere" temporal passing doesn't do it.

• Jesus' life is at least as important salvifically as his death, but I consider that division a false dichotomy for one does not salvifically exist apart from the other anymore that either exists apart from his resurrection.

agreed

• Christ did not suffer infinitely, but suffering, nor sin, nor the punishment thereof, are infinite.

I disagree, depending, of course, on what one means by infinite. Infinite by virtue of being related to God's infinity, is infinite. Sin has that, but only because of God's infinity. Sin is an infinite crime.

• Punishment may be everlasting, but not infinite.
• Scripture tells us he was not abandoned to hades, nor did his body see decay. Those are two big differences. We know Jesus body was transformed but was it transformed to a new and different state, or back to a previously existing state with wounds to the hands, feet, and side added?
• As to Christ's suffering being temporal, I am inclined to say it is because the reality of Christ's abuse means he was not recognizable as a human. I can expand on that more but for the sake of space, I personally doubt God left His Son completely disfigured.

agreed

I'm sure I left a few points out of that list but those are the points I have covered. They all have relevance to psa.

thanks

I tend to agree but a correct understanding of that death must be understood in order for that to have meaning and there are limits to the comparison because Jesus is not a sinner. The redeemed are. Jesus lived a life, died, and was resurrected. He was also judged, but being Jesus, he was not condemned. Neither was he raised to eternal life. He already possessed eternal life. It wasn't "precisely" same death. Baking soda and baking powder are not equivalent substitutions.

Funny you should mention baking in this context. (Sorry, but as a friend of mine says, "When you've got a pun, you've got to get it out, or it'll fester in there!")

 

[Josheb]

Just a word on the suffering Jesus experienced.

Isaiah tells us Jesus, the suffering servant, was beaten so badly he resemblance to being human was lost. You all have been hit so hard that it caused a bruise, whether the blow came from inadvertently hitting your shin on something, having a heavy object dropped on some body art, or a deliberate punch or kick. Generally speaking, it takes a while before a contusion turns into a bruise but repeated blows in the same place can hasten to bruising as multiple blood vessels are broken beneath the skin. In the case of numerous blows, the meat of the flesh softens. The area swells as blood enters the subcutaneous area with nowhere else to go. With enough blows to the same area the skin will burst but that will not alleviate the swelling of the already blood-laden area. when this happens in multiple adjacent areas that entire portion of the body will turn black, blue, and brown. This damage is enhanced when the skin is wet, either as a consequence of sweat or being spit upon.

It is likely Jesus was struck with fists and clubs all over his body and, as a consequence, his entire body swelled from blows to every part of his body. Scripture tells us he was beaten while being interrogated by the Jewish leaders who mocked him and played a "game" where one person would strike him, and he'd then be asked to identify the pugilist by name. After being taken from the Sanhedrin to Herod and the Romans, Jesus was sent out for a scourging, Pilate hoping the abuse would assuage the Jewish crowds. There Jesus was again mocked and beaten, and a ring of throned branches was forced onto his skull, piercing the skin and blood vessels therein. The skin surrounding the skull is filled with blood vessels and even small wounds to the face and head can bleed profusely. On top of this a scourging could be brutal, especially when done by someone with a lot of experience and orders not to kill the victim. Such a man, a Roman soldier, would have plenty experience in Israel given the problem of zealotry with which the Romans constantly dealt. A scourge was a whip made of rawhide into which stones and glass had been woven or cemented. Due to the force with which a whip can be wielded, the lashes would cause contusions a fist couldn't. Sharp rocks and glass would lacerate the skin and repeated lashes pull the meat off the bone, leaving it hanging, severing muscles, making it difficult to flex or move while being whipped. The open flesh also med it easy to identify where previous lashes had landed so the scourger could vary the placement. A scourging could also cause the whip to wrap around the torso, and the returning pull would tear and remove the flesh from all sides and what wasn't lacerated or removed bruised and then swelled. And since all of humanity's sin was poured upon him it is likely he was raped or sodomized with various objects, causing the same kind of damage described above to internal organs. It was an offense to the Jews that Jesus would claim to be the son of God and make himself equal to God. It was also an offense that Jesus would make claims that necessitated his superiority over Caesar (and therefore over every Roman citizen, too). In the minds of his torturers anything that happened to him was justified.

In short, it is likely Jesus' entire body was swollen from thigh to skull, especially in the torso and face. Being swollen, it was also black, blue, and dark brown from the bruising the lines of his normal torso were disrupted wherever the flesh was torn and/or hanging. I sometimes joke that in my youth, when I was exercising often, I was "V" shaped, but now in my old age and hearty appetite I am "O" shaped. The shape of Jesus body was unidentifiable using the alphabet.

I fell off a mountain once. I fell a hundred feet, bouncing down the side of the mountain, with each bouncing causing contusions and lacerations. I suffered lacerations over every part of my body but my feet, which were protected by my hiking boots. I fractured my skull. My friends managed to find a hunter who drove us all to the local hospital, from which I was evacuated by helicopter to a better equipped urban alternative. I was fastened to a backboard during the transit because it hadn't been determined whether any spinal injury has occurred. I was wearing BDUs (military combat pants with plenty of room with which to stretch and move around). Both of my knees had swollen to the point the otherwise roomy pants restrained the swelling. One knee was as big as a soccer ball. After two days in the hospital, still strapped to the back board, and many rounds of doctors coming in to poke me, probe me, xerox me and wonder what next to do (it was a university teaching hospital) I was allowed to get up off the backboard, out of the bed, and take a shower. I was still wearing the clothes in which I'd been backpacking. I hurt so bad all over it took two hands to undo a button. I had to concentrate to do so, the pain was so great. The whole time I was undressing I was unaware the wall to my left in the bathroom was mirrored from ceiling to floor. When I finally got all my clothes off, I looked up and around and jumped from being startled. I know this sounds silly, but I literally thought my hospital room must have been next to a rendering or meat packing plant because I thought I saw a carcass standing or hanging in the next room. It was only that the carcass also jumped that I realized the carcass was me. I'm normally a white guy. That guy in that bathroom was black, and I mean blacker than any black person you've ever met. Black like coal. I had lacerations all over my body and the blood had run all down and around my body underneath my clothes. One laceration went down the side of my face under my jaw and across my neck, but there were scores of smaller cuts all over my body. A portion of my face were still white but much of it was brown and blue from where some of the subcutaneous blood was dissipating. Otherwise, my entire body underneath my clothes, underneath the caked, dried blood was black with marbled areas of dark red, brown and blue.

That's what happens when a human body meets rocky ground and a little gravity. Jesus's wounds were caused deliberately. The force of a human punch can range anywhere from 500 to 1000 Newtons. The force of a 180 lb person falling two stories is about 800 Newtons when hitting the ground. Most people dismiss or minimize or sin because we're not as bad as what we hear about in the news, but they'd have killed Jesus long before he hung on the cross if God had permitted it. There were Jeff Dahmers and Josef Mengeles in those rooms where he was beaten, individuals who took delight in causing excruciating pain with maximum psychological effect..... while prolonging the inevitable.

Isaiah 52:13-14
Behold, My servant will prosper, he will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted. Just as many were astonished at you, My people, so his appearance was marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men.

Isaiah 53:4-5, 10
Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried; yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. But the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief; If he would render himself as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.


In this light I will suggest penal substitution is true, but also inadequate. Few, if any, have suffered as Jesus did and I've given only a brief summary of the physical effects of his beatings. He suffered psychologically beyond our comprehension as well. So, aside from considering the magnitude of Christ's suffering, consider the magnitude of sin when contemplating the atonement.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Few, if any, have suffered as Jesus did and I've given only a brief summary of the physical effects of his beatings.

What's up with the sexual thing. Stop that. Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior... He's not you falling down a mountain and ts not me beaten beyond recognition never to be okay again.

He is my Lord. Stop with the sex stuff please.

I'm not a prude, God knows, but this is my God, my Lord, so please.

 

[makesends]

Most people do not get beaten beyond recognition before dying.

I'll grant that, but to me there's got to be more to it than that. BTW, thanks for that added post #63 addressing what he most likely went through. It means a lot to me, and helps me understand better why people make much of his dying/passion.

 

[Eleanor]

Just a word on the suffering Jesus experienced.

Isaiah tells us Jesus, the suffering servant, was beaten so badly he resemblance to being human was lost. You all have been hit so hard that it caused a bruise, whether the blow came from inadvertently hitting your shin on something, having a heavy object dropped on some body art, or a deliberate punch or kick. Generally speaking, it takes a while before a contusion turns into a bruise but repeated blows in the same place can hasten to bruising as multiple blood vessels are broken beneath the skin. In the case of numerous blows, the meat of the flesh softens. The area swells as blood enters the subcutaneous area with nowhere else to go. With enough blows to the same area the skin will burst but that will not alleviate the swelling of the already blood-laden area. when this happens in multiple adjacent areas that entire portion of the body will turn black, blue, and brown. This damage is enhanced when the skin is wet, either as a consequence of sweat or being spit upon.

It is likely Jesus was struck with fists and clubs all over his body and, as a consequence, his entire body swelled from blows to every part of his body. Scripture tells us he was beaten while being interrogated by the Jewish leaders who mocked him and played a "game" where one person would strike him, and he'd then be asked to identify the pugilist by name. After being taken from the Sanhedrin to Herod and the Romans, Jesus was sent out for a scourging, Pilate hoping the abuse would assuage the Jewish crowds. There Jesus was again mocked and beaten, and a ring of throned branches was forced onto his skull, piercing the skin and blood vessels therein. The skin surrounding the skull is filled with blood vessels and even small wounds to the face and head can bleed profusely. On top of this a scourging could be brutal, especially when done by someone with a lot of experience and orders not to kill the victim. Such a man, a Roman soldier, would have plenty experience in Israel given the problem of zealotry with which the Romans constantly dealt. A scourge was a whip made of rawhide into which stones and glass had been woven or cemented.

Due to the force with which a whip can be wielded, the lashes would cause contusions a fist couldn't. Sharp rocks and glass would lacerate the skin and repeated lashes pull the meat off the bone, leaving it hanging, severing muscles, making it difficult to flex or move while being whipped. The open flesh also med it easy to identify where previous lashes had landed so the scourger could vary the placement. A scourging could also cause the whip to wrap around the torso, and the returning pull would tear and remove the flesh from all sides and what wasn't lacerated or removed bruised and then swelled. And since all of humanity's sin was poured upon him it is likely he was raped or sodomized with various objects, causing the same kind of damage described above to internal organs.

I'm not fond of adding to Scripture.

All of humanity's sin being poured upon him does not mean he experienced every sin of humanity in himself.
The divine is not defiled.
It means he experienced God's punishment for those sins, not the sins themselves.

It was an offense to the Jews that Jesus would claim to be the son of God and make himself equal to God. It was also an offense that Jesus would make claims that necessitated his superiority over Caesar (and therefore over every Roman citizen, too). In the minds of his torturers anything that happened to him was justified.

In short, it is likely Jesus' entire body was swollen from thigh to skull, especially in the torso and face. Being swollen, it was also black, blue, and dark brown from the bruising the lines of his normal torso were disrupted wherever the flesh was torn and/or hanging. I sometimes joke that in my youth, when I was exercising often, I was "V" shaped, but now in my old age and hearty appetite I am "O" shaped. The shape of Jesus body was unidentifiable using the alphabet.

I fell off a mountain once. I fell a hundred feet, bouncing down the side of the mountain, with each bouncing causing contusions and lacerations. I suffered lacerations over every part of my body but my feet, which were protected by my hiking boots. I fractured my skull. My friends managed to find a hunter who drove us all to the local hospital, from which I was evacuated by helicopter to a better equipped urban alternative. I was fastened to a backboard during the transit because it hadn't been determined whether any spinal injury has occurred. I was wearing BDUs (military combat pants with plenty of room with which to stretch and move around). Both of my knees had swollen to the point the otherwise roomy pants restrained the swelling. One knee was as big as a soccer ball. After two days in the hospital, still strapped to the back board, and many rounds of doctors coming in to poke me, probe me, xerox me and wonder what next to do (it was a university teaching hospital) I was allowed to get up off the backboard, out of the bed, and take a shower. I was still wearing the clothes in which I'd been backpacking. I hurt so bad all over it took two hands to undo a button. I had to concentrate to do so, the pain was so great. The whole time I was undressing I was unaware the wall to my left in the bathroom was mirrored from ceiling to floor. When I finally got all my clothes off, I looked up and around and jumped from being startled. I know this sounds silly, but I literally thought my hospital room must have been next to a rendering or meat packing plant because I thought I saw a carcass standing or hanging in the next room. It was only that the carcass also jumped that I realized the carcass was me. I'm normally a white guy. That guy in that bathroom was black, and I mean blacker than any black person you've ever met. Black like coal. I had lacerations all over my body and the blood had run all down and around my body underneath my clothes. One laceration went down the side of my face under my jaw and across my neck, but there were scores of smaller cuts all over my body. A portion of my face were still white but much of it was brown and blue from where some of the subcutaneous blood was dissipating. Otherwise, my entire body underneath my clothes, underneath the caked, dried blood was black with marbled areas of dark red, brown and blue.

That's what happens when a human body meets rocky ground and a little gravity. Jesus's wounds were caused deliberately. The force of a human punch can range anywhere from 500 to 1000 Newtons. The force of a 180 lb person falling two stories is about 800 Newtons when hitting the ground. Most people dismiss or minimize or sin because we're not as bad as what we hear about in the news, but they'd have killed Jesus long before he hung on the cross if God had permitted it. There were Jeff Dahmers and Josef Mengeles in those rooms where he was beaten, individuals who took delight in causing excruciating pain with maximum psychological effect..... while prolonging the inevitable.

Isaiah 52:13-14
Behold, My servant will prosper, he will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted. Just as many were astonished at you, My people, so his appearance was marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men.

Isaiah 53:4-5, 10
Surely our griefs he himself bore, and our sorrows he carried; yet we ourselves esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was pierced through for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon him, and by his scourging we are healed. But the LORD was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief; If he would render himself as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring, he will prolong his days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.


In this light I will suggest penal substitution is true, but also inadequate. Few, if any, have suffered as Jesus did and I've given only a brief summary of the physical effects of his beatings. He suffered psychologically beyond our comprehension as well. So, aside from considering the magnitude of Christ's suffering, consider the magnitude of sin when contemplating the atonement.

 

[makesends]

I'm not fond of adding to Scripture.

All of humanity's sin being poured upon him does not mean he experienced every sin of humanity in himself.
The divine is not defiled.
It means he experienced God's punishment for those sins, not the sins themselves.

Justice was satisfied, complete.

 

[Josheb]

I'm not fond of adding to Scripture.

Neither am I. Nothing I wrote was claimed to be scripture, equal with scripture, or in place of scripture.

All of humanity's sin being poured upon him does not mean he experienced every sin of humanity in himself. The divine is not defiled.

Sin defiles. When scripture explicitly states God made him who had no sin to be sin for us (2 Cor.5:21), that is a statement of the divine being defiled.

Leviticus 18:30
Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

Jeremiah 7:30
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

Matthew 15:11
It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.

In fact, much of the point of the crucifixion was that the sacred was defiled. That is kind of the point behind penal substitutionary atonement.

It means he experienced God's punishment for those sins, not the sins themselves.

God does not want people lying about His Son. God does not want people beating His Son violently or without just cause. God does not want anyone bearing false witness against His Son, or attributing His Son's work to demons.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things which the LORD hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.

God permitted all seven with His Son's punishment.

The divine is not defiled.

Since scripture is often a record of the divine being defiled it might be wise not to add that to scripture.

 

[Eleanor]

Neither am I. Nothing I wrote was claimed to be scripture, equal with scripture, or in place of scripture.

Nor did I say it was.

Sin defiles. When scripture explicitly states God made him who had no sin to be sin for us (2 Cor.5:21), that is a statement of the divine being defiled.

That means God imputed sin to him.
Jesus was sinless, without sin of any kind (Heb 4:15, 7:26)

Leviticus 18:30
Thus you are to keep My charge, that you do not practice any of the abominable customs which have been practiced before you, so as not to defile yourselves with them; I am the LORD your God.'"

Jeremiah 7:30
"For the sons of Judah have done that which is evil in My sight," declares the LORD, "they have set their detestable things in the house which is called by My name, to defile it.

Matthew 15:11
It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.

In fact, much of the point of the crucifixion was that the sacred was defiled. That is kind of the point behind penal substitutionary atonement.

God does not want people lying about His Son. God does not want people beating His Son violently or without just cause. God does not want anyone bearing false witness against His Son, or attributing His Son's work to demons.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things which the LORD hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.

God permitted all seven with His Son's punishment.

Since scripture is often a record of the divine being defiled it might be wise not to add that to scripture.

 

[Eleanor]

Matthew 15:11
It is not what enters the mouth that defiles the person, but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles the person.

Irrelevant to the point. . .

In fact, much of the point of the crucifixion was that the sacred was defiled. That is kind of the point behind penal substitutionary atonement.

Contraire. . .

Your practice is to run beyond the Scriptural notions. . .

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Sin defiles. When scripture explicitly states God made him who had no sin to be sin for us (2 Cor.5:21), that is a statement of the divine being defiled.

Nor did I say it was. That means God imputed sin to him.
Jesus was sinless, without sin of any kind (Heb 4:15, 7:26)

Remind me, Eleanor: Did Jesus offer himself without blemish to God, or defiled?

 

[Eleanor]

Remind me, Eleanor: Did Jesus offer himself without blemish to God, or defiled?

Thanks!

Indeed he did! (Heb 9:14)

Would a defiled offering have been pleasing to God (consult the requirements for the OT sacrifices)?

 

[Rescued One]

If sin was imputed to Christ, I'm out of here!

 

[makesends]

If sin was imputed to Christ, I'm out of here!

What?

Do you not mean, if sin was NOT imputed to Christ?

In post #29 you said:

I was almost lost at the beginning of this thread. I had to look up the meaning of PSA.

"According to PSA, Jesus suffered the wrath of God by suffering the punishment for sins as a substitute for us instead of us taking that punishment ourselves."

I thought that the above quote described what God did for me.

That substitution whereby "Jesus suffered the wrath of God" was because of the imputation of OUR sins to Christ and, conversely, the imputation of his righteousness to ourselves.

It even says, “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God”. (2 Corinthians 5:21) That is, God imputed our sin to Christ.