Marilyn C
Junior
Actually Eleanor, my post was the first. I said to Manfred - You have the different times confused.
Predestined Inheritance and Other Inheritances.
- Thread starter Marilyn C
- Start date
Marilyn C
Junior
Thanks Mod 5, a good notice. I like the way you have suggestions to say something without being personal.Note to participants: Please make an effort to keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.
One of the things I do when I sign on to moderate is got to a thread and search for the word "you." I then examine what is being said and how the "you" is being used. Are the posters speaking to each other, about each other, or at each other. This thread was picked randomly. Blessedly, it's only a few posts old.
Here are some of the "you" statements, you-based accusatory inquiries and bickers found on this page:
- You have the different times confused.
- On what authority do you deny the promised eternal inheritance in the body of Christ.... (assumes the poster denies something)
- Your hermeneutic multiplies things which are the same.
- Your grievously flawed hermeneutic...
- it is your literal interpretation, in contradiction to apostolic and orthodox teaching.....
Those are only a few. There are several others. Rather than edit each post and possibly send notifications informing the poster rule 2 or rule 4 (or whichever rule it might be) has been breached, I'm asking you all to be a little more mindful about how the word "you" is used. The first example in that list above, for example, could be written, "It appears the different times of those verses are being confused," or "I think those verses pertain to different times and should not be confused," or simply worded as a question, "Are the different times being confused?" The same holds true for every one of the dozen you's I found in this one page (Posts 1-17). Most of the problem "you"s fall in the gray area between the letter of the law in the forum's rules. So a word of encouragement or exhortation is offered:
Please make an effort to keep the posts about the posts, and not the posters.
Another note: This forum has very few complaints. Very few posts are reported. I'd like it to stay that way and assume every CCCF member hopes likewise. Each of us makes the forum what it is. Every member is to be commended for their conduct, so I extend to you my personal appreciation. As the forum gets older and more join that might change but subsequent members have you as their example and guide. I hope never to have much to do here
Now.... back to your regularly scheduled program. Very interesting topic.
Marilyn C
Junior
Hi Eleanor, when I have more time I will write the scriptures pertaining to what can appear as `riddles.`
[edit my mod]
Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”
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I have often wondered why people think that the doctrines that apply to the Church (body of believers in the NT) also apply to the OT believer as the Church was a mystery to them. How could they have faith in a promise of God that was never given them?
That all believers (old and new) are made alive in Christ is without question but those things that "accompany salvation" are indeed different according to God's plan both in the here and now and in the eternal state.
Hebrews 6:9
But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.
Real freedom guarantees inequality. We are not all the same. Thank God!
That wouldn't be the position that needs rethinking.
Which has nothing to do with the point.
In "correction" of Miriam and Aaron for their jealousy of the prophetic gift of Moses and his special relationship with the Lord (Nu 12:2), God reminded them that when he spoke to other prophets, he spoke to them in visions and dreams (v.6), (not clearly but in riddles), but when he spoke to Moses, it was not in visions and dreams, but face to face, clearly and not in riddles (v.8).
We learn here that God gives prophecy in riddles (dark sayings) and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
It goes without saying that one does not build doctrine on what God himself states is not clear, but are riddles.
To do so is to ignore the word of God and its implications regarding prophecy for the sake of one's own personal theology, and in addition, which theology conradicts NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church.
Someone is not paying attention to God in Nu 12:1-8, nor paying attention to the apostolic doctrine which such theology contradicts.
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It has everything to do with it.
Prophecy is not simply the foretelling of future events but is the forthtelling of God's will. What we learn from the example you give is that the Lord gives authority in measure and that not all are as privileged/trusted as others. Believers are not equal.
James 4:6
But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: “God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.”
Israel was never promised to sit on the throne with Christ in heaven ruling over all.
M
Mod 5
Guest
The appreciation is appreciated. I have learned folks who do not know where they are going do not usually get there
, and the journey can be as valuable as the destination.Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
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Nothing was "called out" and and at least two posters' posts were sampled.
No.
The word "you" is used 88 times on the first page of 20 posts, but I found only 13 uses that were either overt violations of the rules or questionable. I posted accordingly. 13 out of 88 is very good and commendable. Sample a random page in any other forum and I'll wager the results reflect less kindly on those members, especially in the soteriology boards.
Yes, it is.
Which is why it is all the MORE important to keep the posts about the posters. It is true the soteriology boards in any forum tend to be.... vigorously debated
, and often become rancorous and or volatile. Threads in the soteriology boards are also the ones most commonly digressing and getting far afield of the op - as this one has turned. The moment the mods agree topical discourse is a requirement I'll editing posts accordingly. Until then, that liberty exists and is supported, but that liberty does not lend itself to lengthy topical discourse.Furthermore, there are several boards in every Christian forum that tend toward personal attacks and far-afield digression. The Trinity and RCC boards are two other common examples, but more exist. If those threads here in CCCF are kept about the posts and not the posters then not only will the moderators have nothing to do
, but some semblance of topical discourse ensues and perhaps actual collaborative persuasion to the point of shared agreement with whole scripture. That's always a nice, empowering destination and the journey can be enjoyable.Nor should you
. Abide by the tou when doing so.eh, I have my moments.
Thank you both for the kind and supportive words. Any other comments or inquiries can be PMed, as per the forum's rules.
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And? Which has nothing to do with speaking in riddles.
God said he gives prophecy in hidden meanings (Nu 12:8).
Has that been questioned or denied?
However, what we also learn from the example I give is that God giving prophecy in hidden meanings (Nu 12:8) is being overlooked.
What is being overlooked is God does not give all prophecy in riddles, sometimes He speaks face to face with people like Moses, like Paul, like John. And even when he does speak in dreams, it is not a problem for the one who has the Spirit of God as testified by the likes of Daniel and Joseph. Indeed, being able to "unriddle the riddle" is the mark of knowing God. So as far as I'm concerned, your argument is moot.
1) Actually, speaking face to face is a contrast to giving prophecies in dreams, not a contrast to clearly or in riddles.
2) Some of the prophetic riddles in Daniel which were given in dreams are explained in the texts, and some have been fulfilled,
while the prophetic riddles of Joseph were given in dreams and have been fulfilled.
3) Are the teachings of Jesus and the apostles "prophecies" regarding our eternal inheritance in glory?
4) On what basis do you state that Jesus' visions to John in Revelation are not figurative (hidden meaning)?
It's not my argument that is moot.
I'm not sure you are getting my point. It doesn't matter how God delivers His word, be it riddles, dreams, dark sayings or face to face, the man with the Spirit of God can come to understand them. God does not speak to be misunderstood. Ergo, I find what you are saying as irrelevant to understanding. You are free to think differently but I won't be responding to something I see as having nothing to do with what I'm saying or what the OP is saying regarding our inheritance.
Have a nice day.
Prophetic riddles can be interpreted in more than one way, and each can claim Holy Spirit understanding
The only measure for their truth is NT apostolic teaching, which is authoritative to the church, and which apostolic teaching is contradicted by these literal interpretations of prophetic riddles.
For example, regarding the kingdom of God, the apostolic teaching of Jesus is that
It is here now (Lk 11:20, Mt 12:18),
it is everlasting (Lk 1:33),
it is not of this world, earthly (Mt 18:36),
it is spiritual, hidden and within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he reigns and rules.
It being everlasting (Lk 1:33), there is no other kingdom of God.
However, what God says is that he speaks prophecy in riddles of hidden meanings, and not clearly (Nu 12:8).
I am addressing a post which supports its claim with prophetic riddles of hidden meanings interpreted literally.
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The bodies of the deceased NT and OT saints are in the grave, their spirits are with Christ (2 Co 5;1-9).
