Pharaoh’s Heart

[Carbon]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?


Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Arial]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?


Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

It goes without saying, I think, that Pharoah already had a hard heart and many gods. God was just another god to him. But I have heard it said (Sproul if I am not mistaken) that all God had to do was remove all was step aside. But it is possible that one or two of the plagues would have been enough for Pharoah to let the Hebrews go, and God hardened it further to not do so, until He had defeated everyone of their many gods that they thought controlled different aspects of the created world. "I am God," he was saying, "and there is no other. I created all that is and I am King over all of it. I have eyes that see, ears that hear, feet that move, and have all power and judgement. Your gods do nothing. And Israel had to see and learn this too.

 

[Carbon]

It goes without saying, I think, that Pharoah already had a hard heart and many gods. God was just another god to him. But I have heard it said (Sproul if I am not mistaken) that all God had to do was remove all was step aside. But it is possible that one or two of the plagues would have been enough for Pharoah to let the Hebrews go, and God hardened it further to not do so, until He had defeated everyone of their many gods that they thought controlled different aspects of the created world. "I am God," he was saying, "and there is no other. I created all that is and I am King over all of it. I have eyes that see, ears that hear, feet that move, and have all power and judgement. Your gods do nothing. And Israel had to see and learn this too.

Okay. But how would you say God hardened his heart?

 

[Josheb]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?


Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

I liken it to what Paul wrote in Romans 1: God gave Pharoah over to his lusts.

Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them over to degrading passions.............. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


That which is known about God was evident to Pharoah. Pharoah could have seen God's eternal power and His divine nature and honored God, but his speculations were futile, his heart darkened, and he worshiped creatures - things created by both God and man - instead of the Creator. God had given Pharoah many opportunities did not offer the common man. One each occasion Pharoah denied God and hardened his own heart. God told Moses He was going to harden the already hardening heart and after the plague of boils God did exactly as He said he would.

Personally, I think there are limits to the use of Romans 9 because God originally made everything good (Gen. 1:31) and sinless (Rom. 5:12). We cannot say God made Pharoah sinful before creation because that would contradict a bunch of verses, not just Genesis 1:31. If Romans 9 is taken to be about the "clay" existing after Genesis 3:6-7 and not "clay" being made at creation (in Romans 8 the Potter's clay is already existing, the Potter is not making the clay) then all of the clay contains dross. When Paul writes God makes some for noble purposes and some for ignoble purposes it is much more consistent with whole scripture to view the clay forming as a post-Genesis-3 condition. Otherwise, the logical necessity is two kinds of clay, not one. Paul clearly states the noble and ignoble are made from the same clay. If the clay is good and sinless and God makes the good and sinless clay not-good and sinful then God is the author of sin.

That is not Calvinism.

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Once that happened God was free to do with the sinner as He pleased. He could have eradicated the whole lot of us. He can still do so. What he did was apply grace to the population of sinful humanity and let us exist for a lifetime. It had already been decided man would live once and after that face judgment. No need to change the plan just because sin exists. They whole lot of the clay had become adulterated with impurity, but God in His grace decided to save some from their sin, and the wrath awaiting them, and having saved them clean them up so there would, one day, be no more impurity. The rest He did with as He pleased, killing some by the thousands when it pleased Him, others (like Pharoah or Nebukeddnezer) He chose to make examples of to further His already decided purpose and make an example f for future generations. We must remember God could have snapped His fingers the minute Pharoah said, "No!" to Moses and Pharoah would have dropped dead.

Pharoah's fate was decided the minute God told Abraham his descendants would be enslaved in Egypt, but He would free them after 400 years passed. Whoever was Pharoah when that time came due was going to suffer egregious loss, but that guy, whoever he was going to be, was already dead - dead in sin. And that made him nothing more than trash to be taken out to the curb as God saw fit. Every single Jew fell into the same category, though. It is only by God's grace they were saved. In the end, most of those who left Egypt turned out not to be any better than Pharoah. God killed them all. Every single one of the clay made for ignoble purpose.

Except three (and only two of the three made it into the promised land).

 

[Carbon]

I liken it to what Paul wrote in Romans 1: God gave Pharoah over to his lusts.

Romans 1:18-32
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore, God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason, God gave them over to degrading passions.............. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.


That which is known about God was evident to Pharoah. Pharoah could have seen God's eternal power and His divine nature and honored God, but his speculations were futile, his heart darkened, and he worshiped creatures - things created by both God and man - instead of the Creator. God had given Pharoah many opportunities did not offer the common man. One each occasion Pharoah denied God and hardened his own heart. God told Moses He was going to harden the already hardening heart and after the plague of boils God did exactly as He said he would.

Are you saying the plague hardened Pharoah's heart? Is this how God hardened his heart?

Personally, I think there are limits to the use of Romans 9 because God originally made everything good (Gen. 1:31) and sinless (Rom. 5:12). We cannot say God made Pharoah sinful before creation because that would contradict a bunch of verses, not just Genesis 1:31. If Romans 9 is taken to be about the "clay" existing after Genesis 3:6-7 and not "clay" being made at creation (in Romans 8 the Potter's clay is already existing, the Potter is not making the clay) then all of the clay contains dross. When Paul writes God makes some for noble purposes and some for ignoble purposes it is much more consistent with whole scripture to view the clay forming as a post-Genesis-3 condition. Otherwise, the logical necessity is two kinds of clay, not one. Paul clearly states the noble and ignoble are made from the same clay. If the clay is good and sinless and God makes the good and sinless clay not-good and sinful then God is the author of sin.

Not really sure how this fits in. Either way, you look at it, all clay (men) are born spiritually dead.

That is not Calvinism.

All have sinned and fall short of God's glory. Once that happened God was free to do with the sinner as He pleased. He could have eradicated the whole lot of us. He can still do so. What he did was apply grace to the population of sinful humanity and let us exist for a lifetime. It had already been decided man would live once and after that face judgment. No need to change the plan just because sin exists. They whole lot of the clay had become adulterated with impurity, but God in His grace decided to save some from their sin, and the wrath awaiting them, and having saved them clean them up so there would, one day, be no more impurity. The rest He did with as He pleased, killing some by the thousands when it pleased Him, others (like Pharoah or Nebukeddnezer) He chose to make examples of to further His already decided purpose and make an example f for future generations. We must remember God could have snapped His fingers the minute Pharoah said, "No!" to Moses and Pharoah would have dropped dead.

Do you believe in secondary causes?

Pharoah's fate was decided the minute God told Abraham his descendants would be enslaved in Egypt, but He would free them after 400 years passed.

I believe it was before that. Some time in eternity.

Whoever was Pharoah when that time came due was going to suffer egregious loss, but that guy, whoever he was going to be, was already dead - dead in sin. And that made him nothing more than trash to be taken out to the curb as God saw fit. Every single Jew fell into the same category, though. It is only by God's grace they were saved. In the end, most of those who left Egypt turned out not to be any better than Pharoah. God killed them all. Every single one of the clay made for ignoble purpose.

Except three (and only two of the three made it into the promised land).

 

[Arial]

Okay. But how would you say God hardened his heart?

I don't know how He did it.

 

[Carbon]

I don't know how He did it.

I think He did it in the same way that He did with Joseph and his brothers.

 

[fastfredy0]

God is the first cause of all things. God DETERMINES ALL THINGS. This is proved by the following syllogism:
Premise 1: From nothing, nothing comes (even Gods cannot know what nothing will do in the future)
Premise 2: God knows ALL THINGS (including all future events; where every atom He created will
be though out time; time also being His creation
Conclusion: God is the first cause of all things. God DETERMINES ALL THINGS.

Reformed theologians believe in determinism except when it come to things they find distasteful at which point they say "God PREMITS "X" and "Y" and "Z". This is a form of FREE WILL where man is free to determine if he will do something evil.

Partial List of Verses showing Men Controlled by God in ALL THINGS

• Job 23:14a “For He performs what is planned (appointed) for me,
• Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. [puppets … our thoughts and plans are of NO EFFECT]
• Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.

• Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps. If the Lord directs the steps of a man, is it not proof that he is being controlled or governed by God and therefore he is dependent on God for all things including FAITH?
• Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."
• Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out). [puppets. It is God’s purpose that decides our fate]
• Proverbs 20:24 A man’s steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way? [puppets … our steps are directed by God and not ourselves. We therefore cannot autonomously believe God]
• Proverbs 21:1 The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it whichever way He wishes. [puppets .. God controls us.. His purpose (not ours) will be accomplished]
• Jeremiah 10:23 O Lord [pleads Jeremiah in the name of the people], I know that [the determination of] the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man [even in a strong man or in a man at his best] to direct his [own] steps.
• Daniel 5:23b But you have not glorified the God who has in his control your very breath and all your ways! (Acts 17:28)

• John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.” [we are puppets, God has blinded us so we cannot understand]
• Acts 4:27 For in this city there were gathered together against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 "For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
• 2 Thessalonians 2:11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie,

 

[makesends]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?


Exodus 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ... 32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:12 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:20, But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. ... 27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Romans 9:17-18 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

Okay. But how would you say God hardened his heart?

The way I look at it may come across as simplistic, but the logic is simple. God uses means. Pharoah hardened his own heart, just as God decreed.

It is, in that way, the same as how we always choose what God has decreed.

But there is the interesting idea of God adding to the hardening, in some temporal manner. In one way of looking at it, it is the same —though temporal action by God, instead of so obviously decreed in the sense of, 'predestined'. It is the same because God presents something to a man, who, by his rebellion and self-importance rejects it. We see the same thing in, "Go and tell this people, 'Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.'" (Isaiah 6:9)

 

[CrowCross]

What does it mean, that God hardened Pharoah's heart? Didn't Pharoah harden his own heart? If he hardened his own heart, why did God harden his heart?

How does this work?

Maybe just the opposite of Lydia. In that case God opened her heart.

 

[Arial]

I think He did it in the same way that He did with Joseph and his brothers.

It also says in Ex 8:15 that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The condition of the human heart is hard, like stone. It is only softened by God's grace. God did not restrain him from his evil ways and his heart got harder and harder, and it was to serve God's purposes in making Himself known.

 

[fastfredy0]

The condition of the human heart is hard, like stone.

Agreed.
What was the 'first cause' of this hardness?
(i.e. did Pharaoh use libertarian free will to select a sin nature which included the hardness?)
(Was this hardness imputed by Adam and if so what was the 'first cause' of Adam's hardness; again, did Adam have libertarian free will or some other means to obtain hardness in his heart?)

 

[Fred]

Deuteronomy 2:30
But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Joshua 11:20
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

 

[fastfredy0]

Maybe just the opposite of Lydia. In that case God opened her heart.

Agreed; though I'd hazard to venture that the first cause of either event (Lydia/Pharaoh) was God.

 

[fastfredy0]

There's many 'hardening' and 'blinding' verses. I could rattles off 50 or so. We are 'born spiritually' dead so the 'hardening' and 'blinding' starts are conception. Well, maybe not @makesends ... he's such a nice guy. *mild giggle*

 

[Arial]

What was the 'first cause' of this hardness?
(i.e. did Pharaoh use libertarian free will to select a sin nature which included the hardness?)

Being born in Adam was the cause of his hardness. Pharaoh had no libertarian free will, according to what I marked in bold below.




Libertarian free will means that our choices are free from the determination or constraints of human nature and free from any predetermination by God. All "free will theists" hold that libertarian freedom is essential for moral responsibility, for if our choice is determined or caused by anything, including our own desires, they reason, it cannot properly be called a free choice. Libertarian freedom is, therefore, the freedom to act contrary to one's nature, predisposition and greatest desires. Responsibility, in this view, always means that one could have done otherwise.

The definition is somewhat confusing. It has human nature and the determination of God as entirely separated from one another when they are not. It also separates our choices as having nothing to do with our nature, and all choices lumped under the same umbrella, as though it were not God's world. What occurred with Pharaoh is not something that can be applied to all people and all choices, other than we all begin with a heart turned away from and opposed to God and His righteousness and sovereignty over us and His world.

(Was this hardness imputed by Adam and if so what was the 'first cause' of Adam's hardness;

Pharaoh's hardness was imputed by Adam, in that Adam sinned, and as our federal head ( a determination by God) caused mankind, who was not created a sinful being, to become a sinful being. But the degree or way in which Pharaoh's heart was hard is not universal to all. Nevertheless, a hard heart is a hard heart. The cause of Adam's hardness was his sin. And I do not believe that God can be said to be the first cause of Adam's sin. God did not make him sin, He only gave him a will that could. And yet He intended that Adam would sin, because, as we see in the completion of the Scriptures, that God had a grander, and far reaching purpose in it. That of a completely new creation out of the utter destruction of evil.

did Adam have libertarian free will or some other means to obtain hardness in his heart?)

Adam was not created with a sin nature, but he was created with a will---choice. Something he must have to be who God created him to be---and all mankind. Stewards of His creation, as presented in the Gen account. But he was not created autonomous, that is self determining and independant of his Creator. He was responsible to God to live righteously as God's image bearer, in all his stewardship. He was free to make choices, but he was not free to disobey God. Adam's choices were free from the constraints of human nature, which was created very good. But not free from God's determination as to his obligations to care for God's creation (all that is in it) in accordance with moral righteousness. All mankind is still under that obligation. We answer to God. And because our nature has been changed to that of a sinner, therefore we sin, we always choose according to our nature, and even our good choices are as filthy rags to Him, because until placed in Christ, and having His righteousness counted as ours (imputed) we still remain unwashed, uncleansed, sinners.

 

[Arial]

There's many 'hardening' and 'blinding' verses. I could rattles off 50 or so. We are 'born spiritually' dead so the 'hardening' and 'blinding' starts are conception. Well, maybe not @makesends ... he's such a nice guy. *mild giggle*

If we look at God hardening Pharaoh's heart, I think we can bring it into direct alignment with those scriptures in the NT that speak of God blinding eyes, and shutting ears, opening eyes to see and ears to hear, when it came to coming to Christ and understanding what He was saying, as the very same thing. He is always accomplishing His purposes in all things. It isn't about us, it is about Him. And we, the believer, are the beneficiaries and the servants.

 

[CrowCross]

Arial said:
The condition of the human heart is hard, like stone.

Agreed.
What was the 'first cause' of this hardness?

Adam...right?

 

[Eleanor]

Okay. But how would you say God hardened his heart?

All hearts are hard until God softens them.
All God had to do was not soften it, just leave it as it was and provide no softening works.

 

[Mr GLee]

Okay. But how would you say God hardened his heart?

I would offer . By not performing that which he appoints to us salvation . Christ yoked with believers .He alone can soften hard hearts with the water of the word. . the gospel of our salvation . .

Remember he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases

Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

The Pharaoh hardened his heart by refusing to beleive the one who can make hard and stony heart into fleshly hearts. living temples